About The Signaller

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by montes_1234, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I am interested in the complexity of the railway system in TSW in particular the Signaller. So does the Signaller even exist in TSW and if so what it can do with regards to a train with higher priorities. Or it is just present like to give the permission to proceed if the track ahead is not occupied. Can it prioratize trains so that the passenger train for example can pass the freight one if there is a siding ahead. So train simulator have been developing since 2009, so for 12 years they never talked about the intention to improve or should I say to develop the signaling system in train simulator and than in train sim world games. Signals in these games are just there because they are in real life I guess. But this signaling system is too shallow it just can show red when the following section is occupied by another train. It does not have any capability to dynamically change according to the changing situations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The dispatcher can change priorities, but cannot change routing.
     
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  3. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain in more detail what the signaller/dispatcher can do and how you come to that conclusion?

    Which scenarios or services give the best examples of signaller at work in your experience.
     
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  4. TrainSim_Fan

    TrainSim_Fan Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'm going to explain these roles IRL and in game.

    In game :
    So, signaller can change track routines, and that's about it to be honest.

    IRL :
    So, I'm not 100% sure as I'm a guard in real life, not a signaller. They can change points/switches based on the priority of trains, mainline trains take priority. They can also change signal aspects again based on traffic and priority. Each County in the UK has a set of control rooms (in the case of Kent, Ashford, Faversham and London Centre). For, major incidents you have Kent ICC (Kent Incident Control Centre) located in Maidatone.

    I hope this helped a little, have a nice day!!!!
     
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  5. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately no feature has been implemented for the dynamic management of priorities related to the rank of the train. In GWE, sometimes, you have the Class 166 on the fast line (no stops service between Reading and London), and you, driving the HST, have to stay behind him up to London. Other times, on the other hand, one has the impression that the precedences linked to the train rank exist. But if you look carefully, these are related exclusively to the timetable (scheduled-arrival/departure-time) and not to the rank of the train.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The reason is because the default routing takes the shortest path. When they made GWE, they didn't yet have the ability to see the path thst each train was going to take.
     
  7. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I find that TSW, TS2020 and it appears TSW2 will remain footed in scenario based Train Simulators with very little if any dynamic railroad simulation. The closest you can come to a dynamic situation was free roam scenarios in TS2020.

    There are other Railroad simulators that have full dispatching capabilities and allow either in multiplayer or single player for pathing, arranging meets and dynamically running a session. Rather a different design philosophy toward simulation from the scenario single run trip foundation that DTG’s simulations are based upon.

    Both approached have their advantages and disadvantages. I highly doubt that TSW2 will ever change from the “canned” scenario based simulation. So basically the dispatcher in TSW would be a path determination algorithm based on static inputs at the time of the scenario being developed. Hopefully it will be sophisticated enough to properly arrange meets and pathing based on priorities, but once the path is set, it is set. In fact the scenario editor sort of confirms this since you set start and ending points, The pathings are pretty much pre-determined and you as the developer of the scenario can only then decide on what intermediary stops you want to make.
     
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  8. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    The only route where I saw a sort of dynamic(?)
    management of priorities related to the train rank it was on Peninsula Corridor. During timetable services I saw some Baby Bullet service to overpassing some all-stops services through the track in the middle (where there is the transit track). It happened at Bayshore station and at Lawrence station. It was to exciting! :D

    Update: for example try to start the timetable (by walking/like potential passenger) at Bayshore at 8:35am and waiting about 4 minutes for the show.
    note: I suppose it working only if you got Baby Bullet dlc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  9. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    There is no dynamic signaller on TSW or at least I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest there is. There is no sort of priority system- everything is in scheduled order. E.g. Lets say you’re just beyond Lewis waiting to cross the junction to get to Seaford but there is a train scheduled to pass the junction first coming from Eastbourne. No matter how early you are at the junction or conversely how late the train scheduled to go past is (or for that matter isn’t even running at all!), you will have to wait for that train to go past before you’re able to go. Of course, in real life, the signaller would let you go ahead first not make you wait indefinitely. This example is to do with priority.
    Another example could be done with routing. Take a train to Reading let’s say platform 9 and keep control of the train but don’t move it. A train behind you waiting to go into platform 9 will have to sit outside the station indefinitely until your train has left the station. In reality, the signaller would route the train into platform 8 even though it is booked to go into 9 so as to avoid unnecessary delay.

    Like you said, the signals seem like that they are programmed that if the section ahead is clear, the signal can change to a yellow. If the next 2 sections are clear, it can change to a double yellow (4 aspect signalling) and if the next 3 sections are clear, signal can step up to a green signal. But in real life, most of the signals certainly on a modern network like the Great Western Mainline would be Automatic or Semi-Automatic. This means the signals change automatically with the passage of trains as I’ve described above. You can tell the type of signal it is and who/what controls it by looking at the signal plate.
    Even for some major junctions such as Heathrow Airport Junction, it is usually automated by a system called Automatic Route Setting (ARS). For the signals that the signaller controls usually by buttons let’s say on approach to London Paddington or Reading, in TSW the routing is fixed so there is no signaller present. Even in the above post about the Peninsula Corridor, I would not describe that as dynamic at all as they have just set the schedule and the trains will run/overtake in that order every single time. Try this experiment: take control of a train that is due to overtake; deliberately delay the train or even just don’t move at all; look on your map at the slow train waiting to rejoin the fast line and it will still be sitting at the red signal (signal protecting the junction) indefinitely and the signal/routing will not change for that train until you have gone ahead. If it was dynamic, priority should change.

    That was the way in real life too. The fast turbos from Oxford/Newbury would run on the mainline and as a HST, you obviously have every chance of catching it up. There is nothing incorrect with that in TSW as such but if that train was delayed, I would expect the priority to change either because it is due to stop at Slough and would cause a queue of trains behind and/or because it is a turbo which is 90mph max and so again, it would cause a queue of trains behind. It was certainly very often that the train stopping at Slough would have to wait for the other trains to leave first even if the train stopping at Slough was on time but let’s say Plymouth was running late and then a Cardiff train turns up, etc.... Or on the approach to Slough, the train would be on the relief line at Slough West and rejoin mainline at Dolphin junction. Or even cancel Slough on the service and make passengers wanting to go to Slough to catch a slow train. None of these of course would happen on TSW and if you do run a late running service stopping at Slough, you would get a queue of trains behind you which would be very inefficient considering that the GWML operates at nearly 20 trains an hour in either direction from London Paddington.... which brings me on to my next point, you can’t really appreciate how tough signalling/routing and congested the railways can be with a skeleton service on TSW. Even a few minutes delay can have a massive knock on several hours down the line but of course you can’t appreciate that on TSW if there are only a few trains per hour so the knock on effect is negligible.
     
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  10. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Every train in TS2020 and TSW is Timetabled like real trains are.
    In the timetables if train A is shown to Proceed train B it does
    If train A is supposed to stop at an intermediate Station and train B overtake it does
    But the timetable is fixed and the same HST will always follow the same 166 in to Paddington

    It is designed to keep you alert
    What is the interest in knowing that on departure from Reading the next Yellow is near Paddington?
    By running a Slower Train in front of you you have to Watch the Signals.

    Peter
     
  11. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    It depends on what we mean by dynamic. From my point of view, the signalers are all dynamic but with limited dynamism. For example, they do not manage overtaking. Neither do they route the train on a parallel track if the track is busy at the station. But as regards the conduct of the train I find it absolutely dynamic. If I play the same timetable service several times and voluntarily choose to run too much or go too slow, the whole railroad scenario would change dynamically according to my conduct. For example, I would find stops (red signal) if I went too fast or I could always find a red one because at a certain time I meet a service that to switch from the slow to the fast line would find itself cutting the track where my train proceeds. And still, sometimes, repeating the same timetable service (on the RSN) from Hagen to Finnentrop my freight-train is "overtaken" by a passenger-train. Further on, where the line joins, I sometimes find the passenger-train stationary at the red which gives way to me. Other times (same service and same spot) I am the one to find the red to have to pass the same passenger-train who passed me in Hagen. This is called dynamism, of course, limited dynamism, but if nothing else it is not as static as the Scenarios are.
     
  12. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    The latter you have described as quoted below sounds dynamic so I’ll accept that point. But you can’t really suggest that the fact you see a red signal because you’ve early and have caught up a train in front to be dynamic. I know it’s very easy to be impressed by something so small considering that TSW still has a lot of signalling flaws and still can’t even get flashing yellows implemented, but what on earth would you expect if you catch up with a train in front? If it was anything but a red, that would be a fatal issue and no way could they have released TSW on the market. As I’ve said before, it’s a very simple coding that they’ve used:
    1. Is next section clear? No, Red light
    2. Is the next section clear? Yes. 1 section? Yellow; 2 sections? Double yellow; 3 sections? Green
    Even then it is still flawed and needs refining which is why you see these threads about overrunning a station, reversing back and then stuck at a red signal because it won’t change even though the next section is empty; reversing messes the above algorithm up hence why it is flawed.

     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  13. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    All true!

    But it must also be said that DGT were the first to implement a dynamic system (and an artificial timetable) on a train simulator. Maybe they can't implement it further because otherwise the (current generation) consoles would crash?
     
  14. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    It is sad that the TSW doesn't have a dynamic signaller. So until it has it can not become the true simulation. Signaller currently can just change signals dependent on the occupancy of the track ahead. And that's it. It just destroyes immersion for me. Also it would be a problem, if there where more trains, as than if we run behind a freight on the same truck we would be delayed no matter if we were a fast or semi fast passanger service. Maybe that's the reason why there are limited number of freight services!?
     
  15. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The dispatcher system in TSW CAN change priorities, depending on who gets to a certain point first. It can't change routes though.
     
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  16. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    You don't need the Baby Bullet DLC to be installed to see it happen. They added the additional Baby Bullet services for everyone and if you don't own Baby Bullet it just uses the standard F40/Cab Car to replace it

    I dont own the Baby Bullet and it worked the same as you described for me
     
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  17. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That’s just been programmed to do that. The trains that aren’t going to be overtaken because there is no fast service behind them in the timetable get stopped at a red signal at those places and the signal clears when loading is complete. When there is a fast service behind the train will always be made to wait until it passes. I believe the timetable was altered to avoid certain trains becoming stuck because the signaller isn’t dynamic enough to deal with trains running early or late, so it was forced to behave that way to avoid breaking some services. There is an error in the timetable that ends up swapping the order of two trains but I don’t know if this was because of the update or if it was there before and as far as I know that error hasn’t been fixed. I can’t recall which services they are.
     
  18. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain in more detail. Or would you be kind to suggest some examples where should be clear to see prioritizing in action?
     
  19. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Someone had an example of that on NTP. I don't remember what it was, but they did a service driving at a slower speed, and I think they had to wait at a particular point to let another train out first. Then they did it again, but drove faster, and didn't they got to go first instead.
     
  20. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    have video?
     
  21. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    So how can you be so sure for it to exist, if can't give an example from your own experience?
     
  22. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Always someone else who has the example
    Have you tried it.?
     
  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, I don't remember what it was. Matt has specifically said that the dispatcher can change priorities though. ;)
     
  24. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Is that documented or something somebody overheard?
     
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  25. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Again someone else said. So again if anyone couldn't confirm contrary than I would assume as I already said that the signaller is practically non existent. One of the obvious examples is that when you overshoot the station and by doing that passes the green signal on the way. after you reverse the train into the station that signal would never change back to green.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  26. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Matt said that when he was still on the Discord. If you don't believe it, ask him.
     
  27. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, but if no one else has seen it in action does it matter what someone said.
     
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  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    That one guy did. It involved a freight train at Miles Platting, iirc.
     
  29. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I have experience of the signalling system altering priority. In timetable mode, AI trains that normally wait until your train has passed will be allowed out in front of you if you're running late. I've recently seen this in action with the class 20 scenario where you drive a steel train from Saltburn to Tees Yard. I've done it a couple of times, the first time I ran at line speed where possible the second time I slowed right down and stopped in Middlesbrough station. If you're not familiar with it, a limestone train follows you and uses the goods line through Middlesbrough while your train passes through the platform road. The first time, I got straight into Tees Yard, the second time, the limestone train overtook me and was allowed into Tees Yard first. I was then held at a red signal while a passenger came past in the opposite direction.
     
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  30. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    To you it is enough evidence if someone else have seen it or if someone else has said it. I'm assuming that you are also interested in knowing how things work but with all due respect I think that this type of comments which are taking in to account someone else's experience are not helpful.
     
  31. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much on the concrete example. So this just happened in the scenario, not in some of the services?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  32. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Timetable freight service - Hagen-Fonnentrop (11:10am)

    Example A: I got the green (Regional Express Hagen-Finnentrop of 11:15am has the red)
    Train Sim World® 2020-07-20 14-08-56.png

    Example 2: I got the green (but Regional Express Hagen-Finnentrop of 11:15am has already passed. So, in this service I will have the RE closed to me and for sure I'll find many yellow aspects and problably some red too. Also if the service its the same of the Example A: same service but different conduct/experience)
    Train Sim World® 2020-07-20 14-41-10.png

    Example C: Like above but this time I got the red! (Regional Express Hagen-Finnentrop of 11:15am has the green)
    Train Sim World® 2020-07-20 17-05-07.png

    Random precedence? No! The tip is related to the train who moves as first.
    In the Example A I moved my train at 11:11. (my service start at 11:10)
    In the Example B I moved my train at the 11:16 (after the Regional Express leaved the Station. RE service is scheduled at 11:15)
    In the Example C I just moved at the 11:16 but I ran to caught the red aspect of the Example B.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  33. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    The instance I described is a scenario but it also happens in the timetable. For example, the trains coming down from Lackenby steelworks are sometimes timetabled to wait at South Bank until the Middlesbrough to Saltburn passenger train passes. If you are driving the passenger train and you're running late enough, the steel train won't be held, it will be allowed out onto the main line at it's usual time. Another instance I've just remembered was on the Trans Pennine route. A Leeds express and a newspaper train are scheduled to leave Manchester Victoria at around the same time. When I drove the express, it left the newspaper train standing and got the road through Miles Platting. The next time I ran the service I was showing a friend the game and by the time he'd got the train moving, the newspaper train was in the lead and it got the road at Miles Platting. So, it does adjust to how trains are running, it's just unfortunate it can't alter paths to enable freights to be put in loops for example to let passenger trains pass. That should be a priority for the future to improve realism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  34. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know if it was the fault of the signaller or a blind AI driver but I was just collecting some vans on NTP with a Class 08 (which I very rarely drive) and following all the instructions and obeying all signals when a ruddy great locomotive just slammed into my train at full pelt, derailing us both and ending my session. I’m just filling in my insurance claim now. One way or another the game doesn’t really know what’s going on!
     
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  35. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    The fault was yours Stujoy sorry.
    As your pretend Manager, BR Eastern Region, the Board would accept your resignation as per the collective bargaining agreement of ASLEF, RMT and BRB dated 10/6/1982.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  36. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Great example. I tried that (freight service is DB 80209). My conclusion after seeing this is that TSW has some prioritising going on. But that is I would say static, because it reacts only if one of the services deliberately doesn't move or similar. So it seems that it works like that if one first starts, than it would be given the go first. I am not sure but should the passenger service always be prioritised before freight one? Furthermore dynamic signaller should change routing of the freight or slower passenger so to pass through the faster train.
     
  37. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    If you would be kind to mention the service number, or departure time it would be easier to follow.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  38. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I knew it. Back on the dole again.
     
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  39. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I'm not to sure because I don't know how is the RSN in the real life.
    But It looks like if (in TSW RSN timetable) there are not prioritized services.
    All traffic across the main line (from the signal of my screenshot until Finnentrop) has the same speed limits, both, freight and passdngers, where max speed section is 120km/h and min speed section is 70km/h. This happen because Dovetail (strategically?)
    has used only RE and RB services. I dont know if in real RSN there are Intercities and ICE services and how is them max permitted speed along this route. The Sound can change on new high speed route Köln-Aachen.

    Freight traffic over passengers traffic? It is possible cause RSN freight traffic (or the freight services I played) usually runs without stops. Passengers RE and RB has both 5 stops or over.
     
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  40. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    If I knew the service number I'd give it but I don't and I won't able to find out this evening. I'll investigate and post my findings but it won't be for a while I'm afraid.
     
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  41. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I have found myself with half an hour to kill so I've just recreated the Trans Pennine example. I drove the 0748 Manchester Victoria to Leeds train. The newspaper train is at 0750, there are no train numbers. I first of all set off promptly, on time and got green signals. The second time I allowed the newspaper train to depart and gave it a bit of a head start. This time, the newspaper train got the road and I was held at a red signal at Miles Platting. I would have had to follow it all the way had I continued. I hope this helps.
     
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  42. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the effort. It really looks like the signaller in TSW or if we even call it by that name can just give priority to the trains that were first to start a jurney, nothing more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    One thing I'd like the dispatcher to do is to have the ability to change platforms in real time. For example, if you intentionally block a platform at a big station, everything behind you will be waiting forever, despite there being other free platforms available.

    I don't think the dispatcher has the logic to do this, as it can't think ahead or look ahead of time to see if anything is booked to use x platform for x amount of time. So its pretty limited in this way. Hence why we don't have dynamic events and everything is bang on time, all the time.
     
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  44. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard Active Member

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    And that also fits with the previous idea of utilizing loops, sidings etc.

    There are, as others state, really many good simulators out there where dispatching is clever and really close to real life. This is the most important aspect to this simulation for me, and though I don't have any hopes it will come to TSW2 in any future, I still dream of it.

    A driving experience with delays, altered routing, odd platform usage, disturbances, etc. it all comes down to the dispatching and how it is handled from the game. Sure, it will demand more computer. So? It would bring the simulated railway to life. I can't stress the importance of this enough, and at the moment, it seems too limited. For TS people have developed stuff doing this like for instance REAL DRIVE: (more description on their facebook page)

    I pray the dispatcher aspect of TSW2 will develop. It has never been clever, the above mentioned prioritizing simply is not sufficient for simulating an operating railway.
     
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  45. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I can just support what you said. Without the signaller/dispatcher whole railway can't be complete and feels empty and lifeless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  46. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%. I think it is also a key element needed for getting multiplayer in TSW at some point in the distant future.
     
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  47. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    From yesterday stream I was dissapointed to see the signalling system which was implemented to the new Bakerloo line. I don't know if that is how it should be, the red light turns green instantly after the train starts to move from the station, not the other way around. So again it seems that the game doesn't have any signaller. Which is for the game that pretends to be a simulator really a shamful display.
     
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  48. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It does.
     
  49. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Ok it does but obviously doesn't do it's job at all. It would be the same without the one, you should not be able to see any difference.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Easiest way to check this... WAIT
    TSW2 allows scenarios where trains of various priorities can be in front or behind at junctions, so do that and then see
     

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