About The Signaller

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by montes_1234, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I remember Matt doing a stream, I believe it was on the California route and he was saying that the dispatcher in TSW has some benefits over that in TSx whereby if you say "couple up to x wagons", rather than it specifying where those wagons were, it would dynamically "find them" when the scenario loaded, thus updating the routing
    What it possibly can't do is what you suggested which is dynamically update a destination point, ie which platform. The command in the router isn't "stop at Doncaster", but "stop at Doncaster P4" for example, so if P4 is blocked then the planner couldn't allow for that as it stands

    Hopefully they can redo the dispatcher when they redo the map (something Matt has hinted is in the works at some point, not holding my breath) so that there could be a reaslistic method of "platform alterations", even if it's only a way a scripting the scenario to seem like the platforms being changed, even if in reality it's not. ie you could have the scenario list show "call at Doncaster P4", when the scripting is actually saying "Really, it's P3, but SHOW P4"
     
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  2. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    You do not need the scenario builder. If the train overshoots and by doing that also passes the green light, when reverse back to the station the red signal will never change back to green. You can sit like that for hours, although there is not a single train in front or in the back.
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And wouldn't do in real life I would imagine... That doesn't indicate a lack of dynamic signalling in my mind, it indicates a lack of skill on behalf of the driver for the most part
     
  4. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    That is a point the Signaller should do it's part of the railway operations and the driver should do his/her part. The Signaller should be able to recognise if the two blocks ahead are occupied or free and act accordingly. That would be the simplest thing to expect from the Signaller.
     
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  5. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Probably I dont understood the point, or maybe Im lost something of interesting and Im sorry for this.
    But in my eyes this train simulator looks totally static. You start for arrive at the track 17 and the train will arive to the track 17 (also if you travel with about 20mins of delay, nothing changing).
    Every single train you meet along the line is purely static (200 runs = 200 times same bot train at the same station, or at point X, not Y or Z... Bot trains are not interested on your delay, they spawn always at point X when you are at 500 meters from the point X).
    Graphics looks like a 10 years ago title. Except for some stations texture, the route details are too generic and absolutely not accurate (landmarks, landscapes, tunnels, building). Frejus tunnel looks almost a modern tunnel, the real one looks completely different in lights and shapes. All tunnels looks like the Frejus or the Frejus looks like all other tunnels (as you prefer). Almost 14km of generic tunnel without the characteristic blue lights on both the lower sides. Countyside and trees looks created with Minecraft editor.
    Cab sounds and loco display info (and safety systems) as general are better and more immersive if compared (always as general) with TSW but not too much accurate like for example are in ZUSI 3 (where the brake release sound looks amazing, where everything sounds amazing or almost amazing but the graphics its something for Snes or Sega Saturn and there are only German routes). And I dont not exclude that TSW2 ICE 3M cab sounds and safety systems are pretty similat to ZUSI 3. I said as general because BR 425 DB on HRR sounds are brilliants almost like in a real train. And if you run the route between Duisburg Hbf and Essen Hbf (except for the technical limit regarding the Essen landscape building) the real route and the TSW route looks unbelieveble similar in every single section.

    Real Modane-Torino (on TGV) only the last 5 km are differents cause this train arrive in Torino Porta Susa (new underground station) instead Torino Porta Nuova (central station) but the line between (old historical route) Modane and Torino/Turin its the same. Where TGV max speed its only 160km/h like a common Regional train.

     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In the real world, yes.
    Program that though.
    An unexpected action which wouldn't happen in real life but you need to make every eventuality a possibility.
    But again you're restricting your statements to be very specific proofs. Just because you cannot perform certain "illegal maneuvers" and have the system correct itself doesn't mean there's no system to begin with
     
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  7. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for keeping this alive. I see that you are interested in the matter. So can I ask you if you can state some examples which will show the presence of the Signaller.
     
  8. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The reason for the red signals is caused by someone forgetting to check the "dispatch beyond stop" box in the editor when setting up scenarios/services.
     
  9. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I am not the guy you are talking about, but I had it happen to me. Today I was doing the last service of the Class 101 Journey on NTP and was running 3-5 minutes late as I was placing the map collectibles at some stations. At some point I had to stop at a red signal and saw a tanker freight train overtake me.

    Later on i caught up to it, but it was stopped at a red signal near a deviation from the route I was following. I don't know whether it wanted to rejoin my line or go off the map, I didn't check.

    If somebody else wants to try it, we may find out.
     
  10. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. What does dispatch beyond stop mean? Can you explain it a bit so that everyone can understand.
     
  11. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes this example is just showing that the Dispatcher only prioritizes trains by which started first it will first have green light.
     
  12. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    If that box is checked, it will clear a signal at the end of a platform before the player train stops at it.
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I can give you examples of where the signal scripting works, but I can't give you an example of where there are decisions made which go against the normal functions of the signalling system, those things which you seem to be aiming for where a real life person sat in a control room overrides the normal functioning of the system
     
  14. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    If nothing else, the game or the AI should be at least able to recognise if the three blocks ahead are empty and according to that info turn the light back to green. If the game can't handle such a simple situation than what to expect when it comes to some more complex train operations, like for example overtaking or rerouting. The signaller/dispatcher is irreplaceable part of railway operation system so the game which pretends to be a simulator should have it addressed. So it would be nice to have some info about what it is capable of doing right now and what are plans for it to be like in the future. I am assuming that there are some plans for improving the game in terms of realistic railway operations .
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If the systems in real life do that WITHOUT interference from a person overriding it then I agree with you
    If in real life you would have to make a call then you should be able to tab past it in game (ie simulate making that call, receiving the telling off and being laughed at for bit a bit rubbish as a driver)

    That's not the signaller, that's the dispatcher, and all of that is sorted when the scenario loads. Who goes on what line is all done by the scenario settings so except maybe one train going in front of another because the player drives too quick or too slow there's no other flexibility in the system because the dispatcher is pretty literal
     
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  16. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    That situations are happening in real life also, but you could expect it to happen even more in the simulator, that is why it is simulator so where you can learn stuff. So if that is a huge deal to implement than I am sorry but do we than even to bother to talk about something little more complex. If the game can't recognise that the blocks are empty or occupied than that is a major. So when in simulator you by accident overshoot and by doing that pass the green signal and than reverse back into the station you would be stuck at the red signal indefinitely. If the game is able to recognise the status of the blocks ahead it should be easy to get the permission or not by just tab asking the Signaller.
    If you would be kind to explain what you mean by the dispatcher being literal? Also it seems that you are pretty certain in what are you suggesting. So can I ask you how can you be so sure about the signaller/dispatcher procedures implemented or not in the game? Is that your personal experience from the playing the game or you get that information from someone else? In either case if you know how it works why not write everything it can and can't do in the game.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be being fairly obtuse on this point. I am not sure that in real life a train driver WOULD "just reverse", and I am fairly sure that this would involve contacting the controller, having to have things reset or other methods set (such as opening some of the doors rather than all etc etc)

    Watch the peninsula corridor release stream which had MattP talking about the dispatcher. It's all there for you
    Because I'm not the designer of the game, and the information I have is publically available.
    In other words if YOU want to know something then go do the research...
     
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  18. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I would not want to argue with you, and for sure I would not give you this type of evaluation. I thank you for the reply.
    Ok but you write like you are involved with the development of the game. That is why I asked if you would be kind to share with us some knowledge about how things work in TSW especially in terms of Signaller/Dispatcher. Otherwise I'll leave it here to someone more knowledgeable to answer.
     
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  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    LOL... Nope, and I've never said anything such
     
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  20. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    After watching streams of the Bakerloo Line, I noticed that at the end of many platforms there is a red signal. That would be ok and interesting if it was really blocking the sections ahead because of the another train, or something else. But what is strange is that every single time when the train which is at the station closes its doors than the red aspect changes to green. So thats happening instantly after driver closes the doors on the train. Really strange signalling behavior. By the way that is an example of the absence of any serious work being done to improve the signalling system in the game.
     
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  21. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    They addressed this issue in the live stream last night. Once the additional services are added to the timetable, this won’t happen.
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So you watched the stream but didn't listen then... they addressed this at least twice in the stream

    They have found an issue in service mode of the bakerloo when they have 9 trains constantly mapped over a 24 hour period. The workaround for "bakerloo v1" was to make the trigger release for the signals to only work once the last trigger had been met. This means that the lights currently only react to one request, so if you're approaching the platform the signals are showing that the train will stop at the platform. Only when the door close is acknowledged and the system looks to the next instruction, ie proceed to the next station, does the dispatcher look at the light situation

    They are working on a fix for this in bakerloo v2 which will triple the number of services and trains running in service mode (again for the 24 hour period). So that says to me that they already HAVE worked on the signalling system, found an issue and a workaround and are working on it again to fix the issue, increase capacity etc etc

    But as I said, this was made clear at least twice on stream
     
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  23. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    My mistake than. Time will tell if that would be fixed. But we have similar signalling behaviour on the line RRO. So that is a route which was realeased in 2019. Red turns green only when the train closes its doors. It's on the regional services. Will that be adressed also?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, but if they find the fix on one route then they may well be able to apply this to the other routes. I would ask that question in one of the protagonist's question streams
     
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  25. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I will certanly do that. Do you find anything that in your opinion would require attention regarding the signalling?
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I find things that could be addressed in all aspects of the game, but I deal with things as they are because I'm a pragmatist, and I have better things to do
     
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  27. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course. But writing on the forums you do, so I assume that it's by your views better thing to do. So why wouldn't write a thing or two that in your opinion need to be adressed. In that way you would be contributing to the evolution of this great game.
     
  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    See the stats under my name to the left... It says I've left over two and a half thousand comments. I'm pretty sure some of them have been constructive criticism and contributions...
     
  29. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    After driving a TSW2 route Cologne to Aachen I passed green signal and than stopped. After doing so I reversed the train back to just before that signal and it turned back to green again. So finally I feeled that someone is taking care after the signals. Even if that was an automatic behaviour it felt livelier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  30. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    The same happens with Bakerloo Line, it surprised me when the signal turned back to green, fully expecting it to stay red.
     
  31. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    Just thought I'd have a go with that timetable example and I can't see the newspaper train at all. The map looks very empty and I waited until around 8:05 to set off. Then went up as far as Miles Platting but still no sign of any other trains. Very disappointed as I was looking forward to being held up a bit.
     
  32. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    You had me worried so I've just repeated the exercise. I selected the 0748 train, loco hauled train to Leeds. Jumped out, ran across the tracks to platform 11 and there was the 0750 newspaper train. I climbed into that, took it over and beat the passenger train up the hill to Miles Platting. No idea why your newspaper train isn't showing up unless you're trying to do it at 7.48 in the evening.
     
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  33. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    Definitely the 07:48 morning express, just ran it again to make sure. Tried it with both locos just in case and not a sign of any other trains in Victoria.
    I'm running TSW2020 on PC just for this Route which I downloaded via Steam a few weeks ago. Could there be different versions of the timetable?

    Edit: I Have now installed the Heavy Freight Pack and the platform 11 service is included in the 07:50 timetable. In fact that's where I find myself placed at the start, just before the train I was inside previously sets off by itself. Will give it a follow and see how it goes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  34. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    Thanks for checking that out Tonto62. Since installing the Heavy Freight pack I've had more time to play with the two services at 07:48 and 07:50 and now see that the express and the newspaper train are separate entries in the timetable and either can be played.
    The newspaper train seems heavy and is a challenge to pull and to stop quickly. I've had a couple of SPADs already while trying too hard to stay on the heels of the express. Just the sort of challenge I was looking for.
     
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  35. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    No problem, it gave me an excuse to fire the class 40 up again. Glad you're enjoying it.
     
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  36. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    So any news on DTG improving the complexity of the signaller (dispatcher)? Are there any plans for it to make it be more challenging? So something in regards to prioritizing trains for example or anything really that would make the whole experience greater or should I say more immersive?
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Stock answer : If it's not on the roadmap it's not being worked on
     
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  38. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    I should have been added that I would welcome constructive and helpful feedback on the subject. Its very important topic in railway. So I recon that it would also be important in how we perceive the simulation in terms of complexity of the signals. As I understand now signaling is at the really low level of seriousness. So if I am wrong, would be very helpful that someone explains in detail what the signaller can do in this game.
     
  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I thought we had that discussion months ago?
     
  40. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    If you think that you answered to that question than great for you. But as I know no one from the developers side answered anything nor gave any explanation regarding the signaller. So the question will remain current until that happens.
     
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  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah OK. Hopefully the forum monitors will pass your query on. Unfollowing this thread now
     
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  42. BinaryRun

    BinaryRun Active Member

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    Have you simply send in a ticket or asked during a livestream? You probably would have gotten your answer quicker that way. ;)
     
  43. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the question. But sending a ticket is to expensive for my wallet. I put that question on the livestream, but didn't get the answer. Also this place where writen words are to be placed are in my opinion The place which would be much more helpful for everyone. That is of course in my opinion.
     
  44. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

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    Dynamic behaviour as observed:
    • signals are set a few signals ahead (timetable mode) for player or AI
    • upon starting an AI service or scheduled departure (only timetable mode) the dispatcher will try to set the signals ahead
    • if the path ahead isn't clear at that moment, you will see red
    • in case two trains have the same departure time from the same station in the same direction, the order in the scenario list matters (custom scenarios)
    • as no AI service can start sooner than you, this is a way to let an AI service run directly in front of you (custom scenarios)

    Overtaking is only possible in timetable mode or in DTG designed scenarios. But it isn't a feature of the dispatcher and rather of the time of dispatching. Trains are scheduled to wait until time X and only then try to set the signal. Therefore, another train can be first to use the conflicting path.

    Your only chance for overtaking in custom scenarios is to fake it: in Horrem on Cologne-Aachen, you have a good chance to overtake a regional train. In order to do so, you must let the regional service end there. As you cannot change direction in custom scenarios, it won't matter that the train never leaves the station as you won't be there to notice it. So far, there is no German route available, where scheduled overtaking of regional passenger services by high-speed services takes place.

    It is entirely realistic in stations with junctions behind the stop that you will have red when entering it, even if you continue past the station. However, you cannot close doors in reality until your signal is allowing you to depart.
     
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  45. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    If use use the scenario planner you can at least control the priorities which allows you to set up some interesting runs with plenty of adverse signals to look out for.

    The first service you add has the top priority, then the second service you add has the second priority and so on until the last service you add which has bottom priority.

    If you want your player train service to wait for another train, add them before you add your own train service. And if you want another train to wait for you to pass then put them in after you’ve added your own service.

    It’s still not dynamic signalling unfortunately and it rarely takes advantage of the loops but it does create an illusion at least.
     
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  46. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

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    That only works, in my experience, if that other train starts at the same station and at the same time. If I let an AI train depart at Köln-Ehrenfeld in direction of Aachen with stop in Horrem and I am in an ICE, it will still not let me pass in Horrem. Even, if I am right behind that train.
     
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  47. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    Yeh it’s well annoying, especially when your driving a regional and there’s an ICE crawling behind you.
    We need a ‘go-via’ or ‘wait for xxxx service’ option. But even then our choice of tracks are stupidly limited.
    They really need to upgrade it quick as it’s a bit useless at the moment and it’s the only reason I upgraded to TSW2 from 2020.
     
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  48. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes priority in my knowledge is given to the trains which are departing first and that's it. So game can't recognize trains by priority apart from who goes first have green light. So it would be great to have like for example fast passenger service always depart first than other passenger services and the last one would be the freight train. I hope they will implement some more complex priority system. It will add up to the immersion a ton. Just a little move forward, step at a time.
     
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  49. Smograil

    Smograil Member

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    I was a signaller and a signal manager on uk railways for 13 years, and still work in the industry now although I've traded levers and buttons for a desk! Anyway, many of the regulation decisions you make when trains turn up late or out of course are just made on the hoof using your judgement. You would think about it in advance if you could but delay your final decision until the last moment to have the most information possible. I'd imagine it's very difficult for a computer script to replicate this well.
     
  50. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent than you can share with us an experience of a working as a Signaller. You will surely have something to say about how signalling work in practice.
     

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