About The Signaller

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by montes_1234, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. in_04

    in_04 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Did not work for me. Go on train 20:52 but oil train still passes, the red signals, showed in the '9' map view.
    For me it looks like this one is scripted.
    upload_2021-9-6_18-41-4.png
    Next red signal it passes:
    upload_2021-9-6_18-43-11.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  2. AGoodJudge2

    AGoodJudge2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2021
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    145
    I was confusing myself about the departure time. I thought first that it was 21.00, but since it's 20.55, then the "trick" would be to sit in the driver's seat at 20.50. So I tried that and it didn't work. The oil train is given greens all the way from Marsden, then yellows from just outside Huddersfield, and it passes you on a yellow platform signal too. It didn't seem to be passing reds to me, and I could be wrong about this but some of those red tunnel signals you noticed might apply to the opposite direction. There are bi-directional signals in the tunnel.

    Then I realised that my memory of the trick was actually based on TSW2020 rather than TSW2. I went back to TSW2020 and sure enough if you take over at 20.50, you get a green.

    The difference seems to be that in TSW2020 the oil train is further back up the hill at the relevant time, which is odd as it has the same schedule in both games.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  3. in_04

    in_04 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Thanks for your testing.
    I tried to drive the oil train by myself and come to the conclusion the time it arrive at Huddersfield is way to early and the time in TSW2020 is more on the correct side, so the schedule work as planed. If the oil train is on the position it is TSW2 it couldn't work. Will try to board the train on passenger seat and check the speed it travel.

    Update: This is the position of the Oil train at 20:45 if I riding as passenger on it. The train will never block at 20:55 the train at Huddersfield. It drive with a speed of less than 30 mph.
    upload_2021-9-7_18-12-50.png

    Here the position at 20:50, miles away from Huddersfield:
    upload_2021-9-7_18-16-36.png

    At least the real position of the Oil train, at the time the service leaf Huddersfield, without problems
    upload_2021-9-7_18-23-47.png

    So the problem is the 'compiled' schedule assumes a way to high speed for the Oil train and gets a wrong position for it at 20:50-21:00. Hope Dovetail will make a new schedule sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  4. ILied

    ILied Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2020
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    84
    Submit a ticket so Adam can look at it when NTP comes up (or it might push NTP up the list).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. in_04

    in_04 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Done, thanks for the hint
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    So there are again complaints about the signaller. This time for the route London to Brighton. Folowing is one of the many problems and mysteries of the dispatcher: "AI trains not abiding by the signalling rules (running red lights!)".
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  7. BladesAndRazors

    BladesAndRazors Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2021
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    84
    Citation needed.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  8. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    I must say this. So train simulator have been developing since what 2009, so for 12 years developers never talked about the intention to improve or should I say to develop the signaling system in train simulator and than in train sim world. As if these things are of no interest to developing teams because these are "not important in railway system". Signals in these games are just in places because they are there in real life I guess. But this signaling system is too shallow it just can show red when the following section is occupied by another train and that is it basically. It does not have any capability to dynamically change according to the changing situations. So are 12 years of engaging in train simulation not enough for them to even be able to talk about this system and than the ways in which that system could be implemented and improved after in place. That is one of the most if not the most important aspect of railway system. Without proper signaling trains irl would be stuck, or will crash into each other.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  9. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    292
    That isn't really true. When you compare the signaling system with what we had in MS TS, or the first Trainz, to what we have in TSW, it must be clear that progress was made in both signaling system and dispatcher.
    I.e. for the german signaling we have various types signals that are able to convey different information to the driver. Accompanied by a quite nice implementation of PZB and LZB, with speed checks magnets, and other various stuff.

    This is false. Spawn on foot (or create an empty scenario) i.e. Munich, or Dresden , or any outher bigger station and you'll quickly notice that the default state of all signals is Red, even if the following block is empty. A train needs to have route build through those signals for it to change state. Yes, autoblock will default to green, but that is also true IRL.

    The dispatcher in TSW is more sophisticated than it is in legacy TS, where it is 100% static, based on the scenario simulation. Yes, there are still deficiencies that are obvious with bussier hubs, like that the dispatcher doesn't really plan ahead, and for each block it only consider trains that have already "requested access". This is why have "go via" and red lights at end of stations. Also, yes, there are bugs.

    But just stating that the dispatching, or signal complexity hasn't changed in 12 years, and there is no wish to improve dispatching is just not true.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    • Like Like x 7
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  10. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    We also have to account for the fact that there is a reason that these things still require several human workers to work in real-life. Because we humans can easily look at a delayed train and say "let's make the express take over it at the next possible location" and it seems straight forward, but for the computer, that can only work with given instructions, it's much harder to program.

    Obviously I'm also quite dissatisfied with it, especially on routes like LIRR or NEC, where the ATC/ASCES problems are very obvious, or at the Bakerloo Line, where we still didn't get the more dense timetable - but it's understandable why it's such a hard problem to tackle. Railroad traffic controlling is difficult, especially if you have to write an AI for it. But hopefully they'll get to it eventually.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    Here are the examples of the automation process in railway:
    "The Dubai International Airport operates a fully autonomous train to transfer passengers from one terminal to another in a defined track system. It uses SelTrac, an automatic railway signaling technology to control the train autonomously.

    The Singapore Mass Rapid Transit Lines, currently the world’s longest automated metro system, is another example. This urban transit system is at fourth-grade automation."
     
  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    Zusi 2, can't say about 3 as I don't own it, does have dynamic signalling. So if one guy working part time in his study can achieve that, surely the resources of a big game studio could equal or better?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    102
    That isn't quite correct. Zusi is working because it is a professional company which produces a simulator that is used by real railway companies for their teaching programs. The hobby version benefits from that by having virtually all safety systems in Germany implemented to an insane detail, because that detail is required for real train engineer training.

    It also supports physical cockpits with monitors that portray for example an EBuLa. The target audience is simply different.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    The point is though, that it can be done.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    Firstly to acknowledge that there is a room for the signalling system improvements. And than to talk about some ideas of how it can be achieved. This great community would surely take part in the process. So just make a move. Give some much needed change in this old but stil promising franchise.
     
  16. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    292
    Yeah, but according to quick google search, stuck trains aren't that uncommon on busy routes even in Zusi 3.

    I think that noone is arguing that it cannot be done, it's just that it isn't that easy, and will not magically solve all the problems. I would rather DTG to focus on fixing bugs on this iteration of the dispatcher (i.e. fixing bugs that occur after save game), and then slowly build upon with more features, i.e. predicting train arrival time onto segment, and using that for prioritization, and in isolated scenarios where the benefits would be felt. Than try to create a super-all-dynamic-route-dispatcher with a big-bang release.

    Because, frankly, this iteration is sufficient for 90% of track segments
     
  17. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    In Zusi 2 you can delete stuck trains to try and resolve deadlock, I did it a few times on the Schunterbahn (sp) between Wolfsburg and Braunschweig when things got tangled. The problem with TSW seems to be not just one train stuck but the whole signalling system in a state of meltdown, on resuming a saved game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. mldaureol2

    mldaureol2 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    122
    Hi,
    Is it worth looking at taking a leaf from Omsi Bus simulator.
    In this simulator if any Ai gets stuck or fails to move for a certain length of time without good reason, then the offending Ai is despawned.
    This keeps things moving even if the Ai gets messed up.
    Mike.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Running a few automated trains in a fully closed loop between two terminals is (relatively) easy. Just trains following each other in a given pattern. No variation, no express and non-express trains, no freight or other outside traffic. Even TSW can do that in it's current state, so I don't see your point.

    Same as above. Though more impressive than an airport railway, most subway lines are still just separated, double tracked loops. Trains just follow each other and turn around at the terminals on each end. No real complex situations like on a "real" railway.

    There is a reason it's always just closed, separated trains lines that are fully automated. Complex, busy, interfering railways need human assistance to work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,587
    Likes Received:
    6,018
    Complex, busy, interfering railways need human assistance to work if something goes awry. Under "normal circumstances" they don't, and as we know TSW doesn't do anything BUT normal circumstances
     
    • Like Like x 2
  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Yes, and it simulates normal circumstances pretty well, no? I mean it only dies if you or an AI train gets late, or is not where it's supposed to be because of some bug. But there is a simulated 24 hour timetable, and if everything goes according to it, it's up for the job.

    There are cases of course like on the Boston route, where the timetable apparently just dies after a few hours of real gameplay. It's probably because the real movements of the trains don't match up with the pre-simulated timetable. And I've also seen people theorizing that trains don't actually despawn at certain portals so they get stuck, holding up traffic.

    As I said, I do agree that in needs improvement. Most noticeable about this whole "dispatch beyond" thing that causes red lights at station stops, or what prevents Bakerloo from having more trains. Certain systems, like the ATC/ASCES on the NEC and LIRR routes also need improvement. But all I'm saying that making a flawlessly working train dispatcher system is hard, even real train operators could only do it in mostly enclosed, standalone systems. But I am hoping they get to improve it in the near future, as it would be good to see the Bakerloo Line and LIRR get more traffic in the future, for example.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    102
    The main holdup for more traffic on Bakerloo is dynamic platform assignment. In rush hour, the first train ends on platform 1 and the second on platform 2. Then train from platform 1 departs, switches tracks to be on the correct line side again and continues. Train 2 departs. And most likely, the first two and last two steps are intermixed. Like: arrival 1, departure 2, arrival 2, departure 1.

    They could, theoretically, create all that manually right now. But that would be tedious. So they need to develop the dispatcher to a point where it automatically assigns a free platform and is capable of dealing with this type of situation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    My limited experience of using the Zusi timetable editor was that at each node where a choice of diverging routes was possible (that could still bring you to the final destination) you could add a percentage chance to each alternate. On top of that the AI was capable of dynamic regulation, so if you were running late at a junction a train that should follow would go ahead of yours instead.

    I get the distinct feeling that everything in TSW is scripted or pre-determined so the game simply cannot adapt to out of course running. That all in addition to the saved hame meltdowns, of course.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  24. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    102
    In fact, TSW is dynamic. There is no scripted order of trains. But in most cases the trains get their paths locked in way ahead. This leads to the situation that a delayed train will nevertheless block every other train trying to use the same (already blocked) tracks. As a consequence, in busy sections with intended chaos, the paths will get locked in at the latest possible time (on scheduled departure of a train). This allows a different train order but causes red signals before the boarding has finished.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    That's not true. On Boston Sprinter, for example, if you're coming from Providence and are late, the MBTA train from Stoughton may get in front of you at Canton Junction, even though originally it's supposed to go after you. So while it won't make a train behind you dynamically take over you, the dispatcher can still route trains in front of you if has a chance.
     
  26. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    Fair enough!
     
  27. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    352
    I'm sure I had the signaller put a signal back on an AI at Haywards Heath, perhaps Matt could say whether this is new?

    I deliberately sat in the seat of a Littlehampton-Vic to delay it 10 minutes. I had the road ahead (green). The following GX Btn-Vic pulled up at the red signal at the adjacent platform, so he got delayed too. I left my cab and handed over the Littlehampton-Vic to AI. I went in the other room and came back to find the signals had swapped, so the GX had the road instead.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    2,220
    If that does happen, great, but in reality the signaller would need to advise the driver getting the green to red first, in order to avoid a change of aspect incident.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  29. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    352
    Absolutely, I'm not sure when the road got put back Vern - must be have been after I handed over to AI - so it might only happen to AI services
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    This is example of signaller prioratizing the player train, no matter what class it is? Or if you where on foot after living the cab and letting the ai take over. But than again signaller reasoning was unknown. What train where you at and what train class was the adjecent ai train. Freight, passenger fast or semi fast...?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  31. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    354
    Yes if two trains are sitting at the same station on the two adjencent platforms. Signal for both platforms should be red, and than the signaller should give a green to a train which is scheduled to go first. But what if that train which is scheduled to get going first is delayed in some way, does than signaler changes green to red again and gives the road to other train?
     
  32. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    352
    Both class 1 passenger trains, I was on foot - so hadn't taken over the GX train. I actually took over the train behind that one - which lead to some interesting running, as I was essentially following two late trains. (Although because AI physics are way too fast, they kept getting away from me).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,587
    Likes Received:
    6,018
    You wouldn't want AI to have "proper physics" else your machine would melt...
    On TS1 for example only the lead loco counts AT ALL for physics, which is why they accellerate so fast and when they pass speed changes start accellerating when the first car or loco has passed the board rather than the last
    I'm sure something similar has been implemented in TSW
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  34. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Reduced physics for AI trains is understandable, but then they could simply make them use only 60-80% throttle and brakes or something, because as it is, they often accelerate stupidly fast and the way they drive at 100% efficiency at all times also result in bad timetable calculation for many routes.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    7,489
    Yet when Joe used actual RL arrival and departure times, people whined about the "slack" in the schedule!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,587
    Likes Received:
    6,018
    That should be taken into account by the timetable maker. Unfortunately the balance in such things is hard to do, but most often it doesn't cause too many issues, though it can be a bit jarring seeing a 12 car train take off next to you when you're a six car train and wonder when that thing passed its speed marker
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page