Addressing The ‘candlelit/post-apocalyptic’ World

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    You can nitpick the lighting for ETS2 sure, but it's more than good enough where you can pretty comfortably play it at night. In comparison to TSW routes like Clinchfield where the night lighting's so bad that you can't see stuff at critical points. Especially if you're someone like me who plays TSW on a TV where deeper blacks don't display properly.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Still doesn't detract from the fact that the night lighting is still way better in that game than in tsw
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No, but it points out that even the best isn't perfect... Night lighting in TSW can and should be improved, as with so much else.
     
  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And nobody was suggesting that ETS/ATS lighting was perfect either
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    "And the nights are, well, fantastic. Outside the towns and cities it is quite correctly dark but the truck headlights are highly effective whether on dipped or full beams."
    seems people were holding it up as an exemplar
     
  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Probably because compared to tsw, it's just better overall.
     
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think there’s any game which has ‘perfect’ night lighting, but when looking at TSW’s night lighting, it’s pretty trash and I think most people would appreciate if it had some TLC given to it.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And as you know this would mean a heck of a lot of work on each DLC, probably equivalent to the sound work carried out on Xbox, and look how long it took them to repair something critical!

    Not saying it shouldn't happen, only that it's probably one of the least likely things to happen in game bar the 150 physics being fixed by Rivet (and that's almost in the flying pigs category)
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Depends whether changes to the lighting can be made via a core update which surely must be the root cause of the problem. Yes that might generate the need to revisit some of the models that have night textures and/or project light, but at the end of the day it's not the fault of the customer DTG bodged it in the first place, have continued to churn out DLC knowing the deficiencies and don't even seem to want to acknowledge the problem exists (along with the murky day lighting).
     
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  10. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Member

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    I took this screenshot a few days after the release of SoS... a great example of a main line railway station full of passengers :) Night time is such a frustration because DTG seem to have a thing for setting a disproportionate percentage of the journey activities & scenarios & night. I just end up wanting to skip most of them and would love a setting for 'set all scenarios in the daytime'.

    Good to see so many positive things said about SCS & ETS2 + ATS. I think it's an excellent comparison and personally I have never felt doubt about purchasing an SCS developed product or DLC because you just know there will be years of updates & improvements. Not perfect by any means but it proves it can be done for a niche product at a reasonable price point.

    Screenshot 2022-06-03 20.45.50.png
     

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  11. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t it just awful?
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You may have a fair point about the work. Maybe it can done with a core update which has to be the main cause of the problem but I think this is another example of DTG's lack of hindsight. Sure it may mean that routes must be revisited like with the new skybox for example but frankly they did that to themselves by just refusing to improve lighting for a long time. It's not the consumers problem if they have to go back and improve lighting on previous dlc. They botched the lighting themselves and instead of doing a overhaul or major improvement, they just kept churning out dlc whilst knowing the deficiencies nor do they seem to have any interest in improving the problem. Thus they put a bigger workload on themselves. Heck, an argument can be made that they lied to customers when they said they made some changes to lighting in Harlem when in reality they did no such changes and just used the standard TSW2 night lighting. Yeh they don't have to improve the night lighting if they don't want to (which frankly seems to be the case) but this game shouldn't be only release dlc after dlc again and again. It should also be expanding and improving the core experience. Things like lighting can be better if DTG just put the work in and in the end it benefits all players.
     
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  13. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Another thing broken is the time curves of the station lights turning on and off. 07:00 on a February morning...
    upload_2022-6-30_20-30-58.png
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that there is no "curve," just a point. Lights turn on and off at the same times throughout the year, without reference to sunrise and sunset.

    It strikes me that it would be a very easy thing to program. ("At Time=Sunset-30m, turn on station lights")
     
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  15. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Never never ever never, seen Iver bigun so dark.
     
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  16. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I made a mod to fix that.

    There are actually curves, but they're by default rather flat. The mod provides a curve which switches on and off lights according to the sunset & rise times. The devs are welcome to make use of it. I don't charge!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
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  17. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Why are no US routes in your mod?
     
  18. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    It's for passenger station lighting so the only US routes I included are Harlem and Boston. LIRR isn't worth touching and SFJ is currently completely broken for me with relentless crashes so I'm waiting for the pres crew update.

    I plan to do some German routes if they're required, but I don't own all of them.
     
  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Link?
     
  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nope, unfortunately it isn't JUST a core issue because it would mean changing the lights on every loco impacted (Some of them are a bit dim), every building impacted (ditto) and the reflectivity of each surface.

    Some things ARE core such as how bright the moon is etc, but the reflectivity and light cast is an issue. Go back to the picture I commented on earlier and the lack of light pool in front of the second car. The first and third car on the left are correctly showing their headlights, correctly showing cast light in front of them and this is correctly being reflected from the road, and all three need to be working. In the middle car the headlights are on but the light cast isn't correct so there's nothing for the road to reflect...

    In fact just looked at it again and only the front car seems to be casting a light pool on the road, the third car is in front of light cast from the lamppost, so maybe the light in that game could do with some work too?
    [​IMG]
     
  23. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely right and that's the reason why I never finished all the Journeys in Clinchfield (for example). When I'm in the mood I might come back with "tricks" like setting gamma in-game and on monitor to maximum ... hope this helps
     
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  24. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think you are reading too much into one item in an isolated picture. What I would respectfully suggest you do is play ETS2 or ATS, do a couple of night time drives and compare that to the dismal lighting in TSW. Attempting to redirect by nitpicking my screen shot is not going to change the fact that TSW lighting in general and night time in particular is abysmal and, regardless of the work involved, needs a complete overhaul.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And I think you're focussing too much on bashing the lighting on TSW2 rather than on what would be needed dev wise to fix the multiple issues involved.
    I don't care what ETS2 does well or not because I don't want to play the game, but a discussion on the realities of what would actually be needed to fix what's wrong in TSW2 is what this discussion is about, surely?

    If the point of this post is not constructive or about how to improve things I'm happy to leave
     
  26. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    No, the lighting is crap and as others have commented makes some scenarios and routes unplayable at night time. If anything what I would like to see now is an official response from DTG as to exactly what’s needed to sort it out. Otherwise we can go round and round all day but the one certainty is I will think twice about buying any TSW products in future until this is sorted.
     
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  27. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    It's not just night lighting that looks better. Lighting overall looks better, all times of the day, and with all weather effects. Also, those skies look amazing.


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Is it perfect? Probably not. But it looks pretty good and I can certainly enjoy the views, regardless of weather and time of day.
     
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  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Last night I had a sunset while traversing the Carpathian Mountains and it was awesome. Not only that, the lighting in ETS2 and ATS does not cause the ground to be shrouded in a black shadow more than 200 metres in front of the train, which happens even in daylight with TSW.
     
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  29. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I definitely find myself avoiding doing night time driving in TSW, when you can't even see the levers right in front of you it's not really enjoyable to play.
     
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  30. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    Dtg are more than capable of getting the lighting right! It's just a shame on some routes the ambient lighting is well done then the station lighting isn't and others they get ambient and station lighting right but train lighting not and vice versa.
     
  31. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    The main problem for me is lighting in the distance! It's not there.
    I'm crawling thru Redcar British steel at night, the area around me is well lit, it looks good. But the industry in the distance is in darkness. There's no glow in the sky like you would see in rl. It's not until you approach it and are pretty close to it that all the lights come on! It's the same as with shadows.
     
  32. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    On German routes, in the dark, I often see the blue light emitted by the station PIS way before I see the white/yellow light that should've been emitted by the station lights.

    Can't imagine that's how it looks like in real life, when approaching a station in the dark, or is it?
     
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  33. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This just shows how broken the TOD lighting system is in game.

    Times are shown at 20:00, 21:00 & 22:00. Why is it that the terrain gets significantly lighter at 21:00, as well as diminishes all shadows making it look completely flat?!

    Lets not forget the lack of light sources bar from the car park on the right.

    20:00
    upload_2022-7-1_15-50-22.png

    21:00
    upload_2022-7-1_15-50-40.png

    22:00
    upload_2022-7-1_15-50-56.png
     
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  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Re the above - really illustrates the point, that whole area should be awash with ambient light.
     
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  35. heliq

    heliq Member

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    I myself play ATS, the sky is just fine there! Sunsets and sunrises... I have never seen such beauty in any other game. Don't look at the ETS2 game of 2011. ATS 2016 and has originally improved graphics..
     
  36. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    ETS2 in 2022 is the standard to aspire to buddy, not 2011 or ATS 2016. Both games are something i never tire of, unlike all the train games. Which get stale and boring very quickly and i am someone who has been into railways from a very very young age. Didn't want to do anything other than join BR, when i left school.
    But all these train games, are just mediocre and lacklustre. I don't go all dewy-eyed over UE4 either as a game engine, for a train game. Much prefer the graphical look of DRS, using the Unity game engine.
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I said that they may have to revist every route. Surely you read everything I said? Yeh ETS/ATS lighting can also be improved but it is still way better than the tsw night lighting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  38. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Member

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    I think that is exactly the issue, if you look at each individual light source whether it's a street light or station light or cab light, they are all far to bright but the light only falls in a very narrow cone. It's like a focussed torch beam, not natural at all. I have a suspicion that things would look better if the light sources were all less intense and the intensity fell off at a much less abrupt rate.
     
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  39. Conductor B

    Conductor B Active Member

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    While it may be impractical/unlikely that all night lighting would be fixed, I'd be extremely happy if they fixed the headlights on the engines. At least I could see where I'm going on night runs in rural areas. Surely that's a piece of low-hanging fruit?
     
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  40. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Not low enough for DTG to pick, apparently. The headlight issue, especially for US locos, goes back to the very beginning of TSW. It's drawn only vague responses from DTG, none recently. It seems it has something to do with not being able to switch them off in daylight, which, of course, would not be a problem for American locos. Any solution or improvement is not on the " roadmap ", so not coming anytime soon.
     
  41. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    It's annoying since this has been a issue since TS Classic, and yet despite the chance to start fresh and not need to go back and redo a million routes they still messed it up.

    Funnily enough since TSW came out Searchlight has came up with probably the best solution for TS Classic, have a button to toggle on light casting. When you turn it on you get nice powerful light casting for night ops, while leaving it off gives you none, which is useful for daylight. It's a bit of a hack solution, but goddamn it works and at least it's a solution. Given DTG have deeper pockets and deeper knowledge on the interworking's of TS Classic and TSW I'd think they've be able to do the same thing but add in a trigger to turn light casting on and off depending on time of day. But even if it still used the same button toggle solution I'd still take that over making the lights ineffective.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  42. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Just to add, I can never play a night time service without full cloud and/or foggy conditions. What really bugs me too is I find without cloud, the stars are just too far bright, making it look like day. :|
     
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  43. Conductor B

    Conductor B Active Member

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    I've never done a night run without at least a few clouds, as it seems more realistic to me that way. But you actually give me an idea. I'll try running night services with only clear weather. Perhaps I can at least see where I'm going! :D
     
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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not here they’re not. If night runs on in clear conditions were bright, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
     
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  45. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    You can with DRA and DCZ i think
     
  46. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Night is supposed to be pitch black. We never had all this rubbish with loco headlights years ago. Route knowledge was paramount and all that was needed. If i walk for 5 mins out of the village, i cannot see my hand in front of me at night time.
     
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  47. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This thing is, in TSW, everything is the same ‘darkness’. It doesn’t simulate light pollution from cities (which are very poorly lit in TSW) or the pitch darkness of the countryside.

    When driving at night in TSW, everything (the lighting) just feels ‘flat’. There’s no transitioning between built up areas and countryside. It’s like everywhere has had a power cut with emergency lighting is in operation for a few critical things.

    Other games, some of which are several years old, manage to handle it fine, so I don’t understand why TSW struggles so much.
     
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  48. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Active Member

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    That's just total nonsense. Light levels at night can vary enormously. From pitch black to seemingly too bright on a cloudless full moon night. Even in the middle of nowhere with no artificial light sources a full moon can make it light up significantly.

    Driving (in a car) in pitch black conditions in the country side I can see gas stations coming up for miles by the glow of light in the sky. That's the light of a single gas station, it doesn't take much.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
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  49. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    On the plus point you can release a steam route and say it was dark in 58
     
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  50. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    As always, let the end users have access to the relevant bits of data. give them an an editor and so on, and you'll be amazed at the things they can come up with.

    The developers always think they know their game inside out, and know what can and can't be done, but truth is they only know the things they programmed it to do,

    Just look at what RWEnhancer can do to TSC,
    and how things progressed from the V200 loco that came with railworks, where the PZB lights lit up as you got to their speeds... i.e. reach 55, and the 55 light came on, reach 70 and the 70 light came on!!!

    People thought 'hang on, that's a bit crap' and tried different things until they got a working PZB system,


    Just look at how people today still buy Omsi2 for the first time, 6 years after official support for it ended,

    with TSW2 people are able to do things like have dynamic weather, but only using hacks, EU unlocker and console codes etc.
    look at the new skydome thing, something a modder made that had been adopted as official,

    and this is with a locked down system, just imagine what could be done if people could play about with things without having to hack to game (so to speak)
     
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