Addressing The ‘candlelit/post-apocalyptic’ World

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    gazz292 I agree. There really is no need for TSW to be as locked down as it is. It really does baffle me as to why DTG intentionally keep it a closed game, as it is limiting its potential massively.

    There are so many games which thrive because of community input. See OMSI, ETS, TSC, City Skylines etc. Take note DTG…

    DTG wants us to play TSW ‘their’ way it seems.
     
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  2. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    I think it is mainly about money. For instance if some one came along and made the virtual district line for tsw and give it away for free like tsc. Would you waste your money on the bakerloo line?

    I know I wouldn't and I wish I never had.

    I just can't help but feel that dtg are worried about losing potential income, if the same people that have made some stunning free routes for tsc with high attention to detail do the same on tsw.

    Hopefully I'm wrong but why else would they keep the editor from the public?
     
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  3. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be interested to know what you think. Again, it's the stars, there's too many and way too bright.
     
  4. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, night is never fully pitch black, but perhaps it depends on the area you live in. I'm living in a large town, while the town itself emits plenty of light, there are large areas and parks where there are no lights. I've frequently walked the dogs in these areas while it was dark. Cloudy weather is enough to reflect some ambient light from the nearby neighbourhoods. With a clear sky, the moon will shine enough even when it's not a full moon. The eyes adjust to the very limited amount of light, and I really had no issues seeing where was walking, despite having no light in my direct vicinity. The only areas that may be too dark to see anything, are those where there are enough trees to block any light reflected from the sky.

    So, perhaps night is pitch black in remote areas and when there's no moonlight at all, but anywhere nearby urban areas, as long as you can see a some sky, it never really is pitck black, and your eyes will adjust to the limited about of light there is.
     
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  5. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    If night was pitch black at night, amateur astronomers wouldn’t complain about light pollution.
     
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  6. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    I depends where you are. Time of year. What you are driving. Lights up ahead etc... the few times I've been in the cab of a train at night, In the countryside, there's not a lot to see outside apart from darkness. You can see a little bit of the track infront of the train and not much else apart from signals, street lights and lit houses and stuff. Just as your eyes adjust to the darkness you will pass a signal and everything goes dark again. Same happens when you pass a lit station. Or some street lights on a adjacent road. Even looking down at the lit instruments, your pupils will constrict and take a while to dilate again. I think a lot of the views from cabs are ok as far as the surrounding of the train. The main problem is lighting in the distance. As I said previously its the same as shadows.
    You can see the shadows being drawn up ahead. The same as lighting. As you approach a station it's in darkness, then suddenly the lights come on as if someone has flicked the light switch. Until dtg address that problem nothing is gonna improve.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Setting aside artificial light in the vicinity, it varies a LOT depending on the lunar phase and cloud cover. At night with clear skies at sea it's amazing how well one can see by starlight alone; under an overcast you might as well be in a coal mine. A clear night with a full moon is damn near daylight.
     
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  8. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    It also Causes Poor light run nighttime example H RR SKA
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    At least some of the issues could be averted if the game had better lighting controls built in, for gamma, brightness and contrast. Then those who desire pitch black nights can have them, those of us who want more ambient light can set accordingly. This would also help with the daytime lighting. Fired up the game for the first time in a while yesterday, autumn afternoon run across NTP. Despite being clear blue sky, at 1530 in the afternoon the ground and objects are shrouded in dark tar like shadow. Just not realistic. And it’s not my GPU or monitor settings which have been previously adjusted, as the same time of day and weather conditions in TSC or just about any other game look perfectly okay. Facts are TSW has a terrible lighting system, whether core or route based and even if it’s too late for the existing content, DTG need to sort it going forward. Especially if, as hinted in another thread, we are about to see a substantial price rise incoming for the DLC.
     
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  10. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the issue of a public editor should be discussed - maybe on the next roadmap stream. Yeah, there won't be an editor, we know. That's fine. But it would be nice to discuss why there won't be an editor as it was once planned.
    Of course this topic has been discussed when TSW2 got released, I think. We have heard different lines of arguments:

    1. There will be no editor, because it's too complex. With such a complex editor, it's nearly impossible to make a pubic built that is "easy" to access and learn by everyone.
    My point here: It doesn't have to be learned by everyone. It's the same way with all the editors from other games: Those who want to get into these things. Which is already the case (see the unofficial editor). And surely the community (or at least some very smart people) is capable of learning how to use it.

    2. There will be no editor due to licensing, especially with DTG's internally developed SimuGraph.
    That's a fair point and i have no idea at all what to say against that. Licensing is a complex thing, probably even more complex than the editor :D I can't help but maybe something like: People who want to have the editor should get in contact with DTG and have to make some kind of personal contract, maybe even privately pay a fee to use the editor. I guess there would be people willing to do that.

    3. There won't be an editor because only PC players would benefit from it.
    While this is not a reason to not have an public editor, the argument that console players can't access it is a point which we shouldn't ignore. We on the PC section tend to oversee the console community. I guess one solution would be that again: If you want to have the editor, make some kind of contract with DTG where you're only allowed to publish routes and locos (not "mods" in the classical way of thinking) through DTG so everyone can benefit from that.

    I can't help but think that the only way we could realistically see a public editor would be a half-public editor where you have to make a personal contract, maybe even have to pay for licensing, which makes sure that you only publish through DTG, where DTG does the QA (which is maybe payed as well because somebody needs to pay the QA people) (...).

    I hope these arguments can be adressed in a stream as I see a big part of the community wants to have an editor :)
     
  11. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They said it was #2
     
  12. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    How do third party developers pass this hurdle I wonder?
     
  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    With epic games apparently but I am starting to question that. Bus Simulator 21 which is on unreal engine has an official modkit so pc players can make their own maps and buses. Would epic really be upset and sue just because DTG allowed players to make their own routes and trains. I am not so sure about the epic games reason anymore.

    If there was an editor, then the night lighting issue would probably have been sorted by now
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  14. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Night lighting in TSW2 is just embarrassingly bad for 2022. Many 10-20 year old games did it much better.
     
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  15. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    DTG modified the editor, it's not the standard UE4 editor. They probably aren't allowed to release the modded version.
     
  16. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    That is artificial light. [REMOVED - Alex] Why do you think i said. if i walk out of the village where i live. Street lighting makes it light yes, but we are supposed to be talking about darkness. On the railway in the middle of nowhere. So the only nonsense here is yours, quelle surprise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2022
  17. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Agreed lm, i was just generalising about how dark things should be, away from artificial light sources. Real world and in game. Even bloody Trainz can give the player complete darkness, with variations, depending on time of day\night.
     
  18. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if we have got the wrong end of the stick. We say DTG aren't allowed to release the editor because of Simugraph or their own bespoke modifications. But what if the witholding of permission to release it actually is from DTG rather than Epic. Are they saying that they don't want other developers being able to use their Simugraph without permission and releasing stuff for free or outside of DTG revenue? Is it a self-imposed restriction being painted as coming from outside their control?
     
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  19. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    It's not epic games. Ue4 is available for free download from epic games. All you have to do is sign up for epic account then you can download it.
     
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  20. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Active Member

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    Congrats for totally ignoring my first paragraph.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Even if it is modified, would epic games really have a problem though? DTG have told customers that they haven't released an editor due to licensing issues from epic apparently. The UE4 editor is free to download as long as you have a epic account which is why I wonder what is the supposed licensing problem then even if it has modifications related to train simulation.

    I mean would there really be a problem if players were allowed to make their own custom routes, make stations, place buildings, trees, other infrastructure and trains?
     
  22. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Eh not quite. Part of the argument here would be that after a certain userbase and for commercial third-party dlc, the editor could be subject to Unreal Engines royalty scheme. https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/release

    The questions here are
    a) Would the editor be considered a monetized publication?
    b) Who is legally liable for other copyright/trademarks for a published DLC?
    c) If the editor was considered a monetized production, then where would exported content be sold?
    d) Does DTG themselves wish to collect royalties on published content?

    On personal bias, I do strongly suspect the last two are the real reasons why we haven't seen the editor. It's in-line with DTGs thinking when both TSW and FSW (and Fishing Sim to some extent) were produced. With FSW and FSX:SE, DTG attempted to make all third-party DLC exclusively available via their channels only (DTG store and Steam with that comission slapped on). TSW just seems to be a more successfully executed version of their desired model, and the only route third-parties can publish content.


    Exactly. Whilst A & B are theoretical, it's negated by the existence of virtually every internal and external editor for a game ever, as content creators are held personally liable for their creations and are not monetized. DTG could have taken this route, and then cherry-picked the best content to publish via their channels... fully licensed and optimized.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But don't DTG already do this with their third parties when the products are up for sale on Steam, Epic, Sony and Microsoft stores
     
  24. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Not with TSW as it's a forced choice. It'd be more akin to the relationship third-parties had with TSC. The one real problem here is that if independent third-parties should monetize, they would HAVE to pay Epic games somehow.
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Which is part of the reason why there is no editor. Now it makes sense. DTG could've been more specific about this.

    Although what if a player makes something and they decide want to release it for free. I could understand if a party wants to charge that they would have to pay for it, but what about free stuff? Would they have to pay epic as well? We see free things in TSC for example such as the Hudson line extension to Albany that was free on the steam workshop.
     
  26. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    I really can't see me or any other user netting 1 million dollars in profit. But ok say I make a few scenarios and a route, and make a million dollars and have to pay epic 5% royalties. I have absolutely no objections in doing so or dtg's royalties on that matter
     
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  27. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    Any way forget the editor, it's not happening. I'm sure matt and all the development team would love the editor to be a public thing. Sadly there's someone higher up the ladder saying no. There's either something in the editor they don't want us to see or they are concerned about freeware impacting future profits!

    I really can't see there being any licensing issues considering other developers give their users access to ue4 editor on other games.

    What we should be focusing on is the development of the unofficial editor. Thanks to 2 talented chaps making some of our dreams reality.
     
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  28. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    You might not, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who'd hardline against that and would rather publish on their own store to net all the profit possible. Furthermore you or someone else might be ok with giving away 5%, but would you say the same to 12%? And even if you're ok with that, would you be willing to give 30% of the profit away? The 12% percent figure is what Epic takes, and 30% is what Steam used to take before Epic entered the market, and I believe that's what they still do for games that sell beyond a certain number of units.

    Furthermore TSW third party DLC is unique, because not only does Steam/Epic take their cut, but DTG also take a portion of the remaining cut. I'm not sure how much they take, but I would assume 15% is probably a reasonable guess. So assuming a scenario where Steam take 15% (which I believe is what they start off with now) and DTG takes 15% of the remaining money you end up receiving $722,500 of the $1,000,000. And mind you that's quite a lot better than what it used to be because Epic's rates are so much better than what Steam and consoles were doing.
     
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  29. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    722,500 sounds good to me.

    There's people that would try to abuse it yes but I'm sure dtg could blacklist their content.
     
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The other problem relates to performance- we know how fragile the system is even for DTG. Are basement programmers going to come up with something which (a) doesn't choke out 8th-gen consoles and older PCs, and (b) avoid hideous dispatcher traffic snarls?
     
  31. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    ...What?

    What system is there for third parties to abuse here? At no point did I make mention of them being able to do so.
     
  32. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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  33. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    That isn't abusive though when DTG themselves are perfectly fine with that in TS Classic. Fact is DTG are their own worst enemy in that regard because they set the persistent that it was fine for third parties to have their own storefronts in the first place.

    Also why is it that you interpret third parties wanting a bigger cut as abusive, yet interpret DTG and Valve wanting their cut as unabusive? The opposite could be argued easily considering how much more power DTG and Valve have at play here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
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  34. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    If a 3rd party comes along and don't pay the royalties to dtg and Epic that's abusing the system. That's what you made it sound like. Or do you mean bypassing steam? As far as I'm aware you can't bypass Microsoft or PlayStation stores when it comes to selling content for consoles.

    Dtg wanting a cut of your profits for using their version of the editor and assets is perfectly acceptable. Same as with epic wanting a cut. Epics policy. Basically they don't want anything until you make your first million. How's that abusive? Sounds rather generous to me.

    I don't even know where your going with this. We're talking about a public editor. Not a development tool for commercial enterprises.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
  35. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    What about Windows? Or even Linux for that matter. You can develop software for either of them without having to pay them royalties, hell, Linux doesn't even need payment at all to use. I would not call people abusive for doing that, largely because they're setup that way on purpose.
    It's not, but neither is a developer saying "I don't want DTG taking a third of my money, I'm gonna go elsewhere." The whole point of me explaining the percentages to you is to give some understanding of why someone might take objection to that. You might be ok with giving them $250,000 dollar of revenue, but others might not. And keep in mind as you said in the beginning $1,000,000 is probably not what most addon developers are making. Imagine instead that we're talking $20,000 instead, losing a quarter of your money might not be impactful if you have $750,000 in the bank, but when you only have $15,000 that extra $5000 is much more significant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
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  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Back on the topic of night lighting… I fired up WOS 3 (the UK one) on a whim last night. Even though it’s a deeply flawed game from the simulation POV, starting an early morning run from Hammersmith in towards the city the night lighting effects were sublime. Likewise the headlights on the C69 were providing a reasonable amount of forward illumination and reflecting off the scenery and signage. So if TML can do it right on a game which dates from 2014, what’s your excuse Dovetail?
     
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  37. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The answer - there is no excuse.

    Several games, as mentioned, already have significantly better night lighting compared to TSW. The simple fact is DTG do not want to allocate time or resources in improving it, as sad as that sounds. This can be the same said for rain visuals, fog visuals, lack of lightning/storms, lack of cloud colours etc. Their atmospheric department really is in a sorry looking state.
     
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  38. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Let’s see if this topic will be mentioned in tomorrow’s Q&A, or whether it’ll be quietly swept under the rug again.
     
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  39. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of people have mentioned the subject on the Q&A topic, it's really hard to miss. If DTG doesn't mention the subject, they're doing it on purpose and their Q&A would be a farce.
     
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  40. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    :D:D:D
    If only!
     
  41. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I guess that means you know the real percentages but aren't allowed to share them? :P
     
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  42. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, one of the first things I would want overhauled in TSW is the skybox. The 2D system was already outdated when TSW:CSX first shipped, and whilst the TSW2 system is "better"... it still lacks.

     
  43. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    To be fair I think DTG have acknowledged the issues with lighting, the issue isn't that DTG don't know how to talk the talk, it's that they don't know how to walk the walk. There's a lot of times where they've said "we need to work on that" only to never get back around to it. And even when they do it's only after a year or two of it being on sale.
    I'll be honest I was concerned about overshooting it, so at least I know I didn't do that!
     
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  44. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    DTG are past masters at kicking the can down the road and giving just enough of a glimmer of hope to placate everyone, whilst at the same time having zero intention of actually addressing the problem/missing feature in hand.
     
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  45. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    They may surprise us, but the cynic in me says it will be all pink headphones and High Fives with little or no substance to what the audience wants to hear.
     
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  46. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’m remaining positive. However, if none of these topics are talked about, then it really will show how selective they are about answering questions.
     
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  47. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    When highlighted on streams in the past the solution has been to just play night time in June. Needs looking at for the other 11 months
     
  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Here's the bizarre thing: motor traffic on the roads DOES turn its headlights on at appropriate times! So the subroutine already exists in the game code.
     
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  49. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Not the best comparison, but this is the sort of night lighting we need in TSW.

    Notice how the light source from street lights actually spread out and illuminate things, unlike in TSW where it is a spotlight, which barely spreads the light out and illuminates anything, whilst simultaneously looking like a candle. Also, notice the atmospheric effects around the lights. The fog/haze around the light source, making it feel 3D-like and not so flat.

    Finally, notice the transition between the lit up road and the pitch black forest in the background. The lights can also be seen going off into the distance, unlike in TSW where they literally turn on right in front of you because of poor distance rendering.
    2C00283F-B379-4FA4-9D39-B835379F3711.jpeg
     
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  50. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    So it seems the situation is a 'complex' fix with nothing changing anytime soon, is what I gathered from the livestream. Very underwhelming but not totally surprising.
     

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