After The Madness Of The 2021 Core Update Failure What Have We All Actually Learned?

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by shhweeet#4292, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    So what have we learned from it all?

    For me it’s…..

    Never buy a TSW2 dlc at anywhere near full price. Not that I did anyhow.

    Set my PS4 not to do automatic updates.

    Forget about buying a PS5 just to play TSW2. PS4 is perfectly adequate for it especially after the core update and especially when you take into account most of the TSW2 content isn’t fully finished before release or properly quality checked for bugs anyway.

    Realise DTG have an unhealthy monopoly on the console rail sim market and need some serious quality competition from other rail sim developers so DTG are forced to up their basic A game.

    Don’t immediately jump in with their latest fads like Rush Hour and it’s ticket idea until it’s well proven and does anything like what they initially said it was going to do on the tin.

    That’s for starters.

    You?
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've learned never to trust the Sony update process... Steam, Epic both worked fine with not a single issue I have seen. Xbox had a bit of a fallover but nothing major.
    The restart of the PS5 version and the failure of the PS4 update process just goes to show Sony need to do some work on their background engineering...

    The issues with DTG have been known for years (I quit TS1 because of them even though I've spent hundreds of pounds on TS1 and it's DLC, won't go back), but thankfully TSW is still relatively straightforward to play and use when it actually works! Now if only DTG would go back and start fixing the multitude of non-game-breaking issues caused by the update... (irony)
     
  3. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Patience is a virtue?
     
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  4. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    But also not to just roll over and accept everything is what it is via easy forgiveness. Customer is king so show DTG that’s the case and vote with your wallet if they don’t rapidly improve things.
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone can accuse the community of "rolling over"... The multitude of posts kinda shows people very much wanted DTG aware of their issues, even if some were more... vocal in how they put their case
     
  6. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    Don't think these are the lessons at all:

    1 - If you never bought DLC at full price, how have you learned not to buy DLC at full price?
    2 - Don't buy a PS5? Most PS5 users have been able to play TSW2 since the core update and the upgrade process was a lot more straightforward than for PS4 users. If anything, the lesson is to get a PS5 asap (if that was possible).
    3 - Some in the community need to realise that train simulators (or any simulator for that matter) are quite a niche. That's not DTG's fault, that's just reality. If we drive DTG out of the train sim game, then we're just left without any decent train sims, not a plethora of them (Trainz, anybody?).
    4 - Again, as a PS5 player (see point 2), I've had zero issues with Rush Hour, bought the season pass, downloaded the route, played it. It's good.

    The only real lesson to learn is for DTG not to have so many balls in the air at one time. This should be the last time the game engine will need such a major upgrade so we'll probably never see this situation again but DTG could have went down the same route as other developers and called this TSW3 (and charged a fee, nominal or otherwise). It would have been less hassle for them, for the users and for the platform holders. Would that have been a better option?
     
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  7. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think we learned much we didn’t already know. Same old frustrations.
     
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  8. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    1/ Wait for the inevitable sale when dlc’s drop to their true value because of quality issues.
    2/ Some have clearly stated they’ve bought PS5’s just to play TSW2. Why? It’s perfectly good enough on a PS4 after the recent core update and especially with all it’s bugs and inaccuracies. It might be different if the PS5 version was totally bug free and more accurate etc. Save your money unless you are buying a PS5 for other things apart from TSW2. Yes the upgrade was more straightforward for PS5 which is not a reason to specifically buy a PS5 but every reason to get on DTG and Sony’s back for cocking you the PS4 platform. Or are you saying PS4 players are less important now?
    3/ I don’t give a flying fig that TSW2 is supposed to be a niche simulator or that DTG currently has the monopoly on console That’s not an excuse for substandard work. Period! They want to charge top dollar for a game / download then provide a top dollar product.
    4/ your a PS5 player. Good or lucky for you. PS4 players who are currently in the majority had an awful experience so what is your point exactly?

    Going by what long term players have said about DTG then we will most likely see this or something similar happening again because people like you keep making excuses for them. If you can’t see any lessons to be learned then I guess your one of the many who will just accept anything which is why people like DTG keep dropped the ball and taking the p**s.
     
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  9. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    1 - Value is a subjective thing. And it's an issue with every bit of contents on TSW2, even the base game. So it's not a lesson specifically to be learned from the core update.

    2 - The increased draw distance, the reduced loading times, the higher rez textures are all a big plus on PS5. And the core update was pretty painless in comparison. I'm not saying PS4 players are less important but you claimed NOT buying a PS5 was a lesson to be learnt from the update. I just think you're wrong and don't see how you could reach that conclusion.

    3 - What are you comparing with in your assertion. If you want sub-standard work, go and look at some other potential alternatives. DTG don't charge anywhere near top dollar and the support they give is pretty high standard for such a small developer when you factor in the live streams, etc.

    4 - Yep but, again, you specifically cited this as a reason not to buy a PS5. So don't be surprised when actual PS5 players disagree with you and point out that, despite the confidence of your assertions, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
     
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  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst the consistency of the quality of the DLC may be hit and miss, DTG can be relied upon to mess something up!
     
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  11. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    It will certainly happen again sooner or later. Programming and coding is tough, especially the more code gets added and the more different platforms need to get access to it and the more parties have to work together on making it functional.
    The ps4 hiccup was bad but it was an unfortunate mishap.
    Sometimes mistakes happen. It is not like they planned on having the ps4 player base annoyed and riled up.

    Like I get it when there are gameplay or design choices that are unfavorable, but the ps4 update issue was just an unforeseeable accident.
     
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  12. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you would be so glib if you didn’t have a PS5 during the recent problems?

    Slightly faster loading times higher rez frame rates increased draw distance, or whatever else is hardly a reason to spend hundreds on a PS5 just for TSW2 :D unless you have more money than sense. Until there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between PS4 and PS5 TSW2’s I’d say save your money unless your buying a PS5 for other things. The core update has put PS4 back in the game for people who don’t have more money than sense that’s just fact.

    I don’t know what I’m talking about? Erm ok, but you just come across as an I will accept anything mug. The ideal DTG customer in other words. I couldn’t care less whether PS5 players agree with me or not but I’ve obviously pricked your conscience though.
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe the question was "what lessons have been learned" rather than "please justify your position on the various issues"
    Some people learn differently!
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For some that would be a very good reason to upgrade their kit. I am sure some PC players would upgrade their GPU to get 5fps increase!
    More money than sense maybe, but some would
     
  15. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    [edit by Protagonist - no need to continue an argument]

    The 2 main advantages between the PS4 and PS5 versions are the faster loading times, which are great if you just enjoy exploring a route, jumping from station to station, and the quietness of the console fans. On the PS Pro, exploring a station whilst a jet air liner flew about in the background was off-putting. No such issues on PS5. Instead of waiting a couple of minutes to spawn at the station, I can be there in 30 seconds. Quality of life improvements that are worth the entrance fee. Yes, the worth is subjective. But it is why I will argue against the assertion that not buying a PS5 is a specific lesson to be learned from the issues caused by the core update.
     
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  16. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    I believe it was. Just a shame someone feels the need to wade in and have a personal go though in order to justify THEIR position just because they don’t agree.
     
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  17. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    -I learned not to buy full price DLC for TSW months ago. It's better to wait and play when they have fixed some of the bugs they are released with. That way I enjoy the route more and also save some money.

    -I never have automatic apps enabled on absolutely nothing (Console, PC, cell phone...). I prefer to wait for others to test it and if everything works ok, then I upgrade.

    -I don't think anyone will buy a ps5 to play only TSW. But if so I would certainly recommend it because the game works infinitely better. If there is something that DTG has done well with recent updates is certainly the versions for next gen consoles.

    -Even if there was competition there would still be bugs in DTG ( and the competition). Don't expect a AAA product with trains, it's simply impossible. And I think TSW is a great product with a very decent quality and with a good future ahead. Could there be any better? It's possible but there isn't. And I am thankful to be able to enjoy every day this railway passion, and on a console too.

    -The season ticket is an opportunity in my point of view, because buying it each route only costs 12 €. At this price I think it is quite forgivable that there are some mistakes.
     
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  18. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely nothing wrong with TSW2 on PS4. It’s perfectly playable, now has slightly faster loading times, graphics are slightly improved and are perfectly fine etc etc. Oh! and btw my PS4 fan is a lot more quiet since the update. Yes PS5 Is obviously better in some areas but to justify getting one just to play TSW2 in its current state of development.

    Do me a favour!
     
  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with you however... you're the one who "took it personal"
    That the respondant disagreed with you was obvious by their first response but it only got into a "you against them" after the above comment.

    Personally I think you're both right in the most part. The PS4 version is perfectly suitable for those happy with it's output, but some will want hi-res 60fps stability and the money isn't an issue (or at least is an issue they can live with)
    Either way it's not worth the mud slinging AT EACH OTHER which is detracting from the legitimate concerns that could be discussed here such as DTGs QA system, Sony's store core background tech (and game transfer tech) etc etc
     
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  20. HeuF

    HeuF Active Member

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    I have learned that this forum is too negative to stay any longer.... ;)
     
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  21. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    I know, you'd think this was a public forum or something! :cool:
     
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  22. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - off topic, and argumentative]
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Either way, can we stick to the dissection of the issues rather than each other?
     
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  24. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - off topic and argumentative]
     
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  25. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - off topic and argumentative]
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because I have an interest in the progression of the game as a game, DTG as a company (so they can make the game better) and systems in general (so they make people's lives easier)
    I am here to hopefully learn something where I can, help where I can and stop people ripping each other apart (or themselves) where possible

    And why do I bother commenting on your post? Because the POST made valid points, made them well and they deserve to be discussed. The rest is just idle tosh that needn't happen.

    So, i we can get back to how things crashed and what can we (and DTG) learn from that, great. If not this post may as well be closed as far as I'm concerned
     
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  27. OnlyMe1909

    OnlyMe1909 Well-Known Member

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    What have I learned from all this? That this community can be a whole lot more toxic than I ever expected.
     
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  28. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    It’s only negative because people aren’t really allowed to express their thoughts if the know it all woke brigade don’t agree.

    Here is another one to pee them off. I’ve said this before but TSW2 should be specific region editions. As it’s stands it’s trying to be all things to all men. Smaller dedicated specific game region dev teams would be able to concentrate much more on accuracy and quality. instead of trying to cover large sections of the world in one game. And I suppose the most popular region/s would be the ones to survive.

    Amyway it wasn’t my intention for this thread to go off track it was started with the best of intentions but as usual the inevitable happens because of the point I made at the top of this reply. I was expecting it tbh.
     
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I agree there should be devs in various countries dedicated to at least bringing specific input (like realistic PIS), but then they could use the community for that...
    It would also help with bringing in more content much more quickly which people seem to be clamouring for
     
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  30. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I feel it is negative because of folks like you, that like to label people which is shown by your vocabulary (21 century, woke, pc section, ideal DTG customer) and attitude. Somehow when other speak their opinion it is offensive, and if they don't agree with yours for some reason you aren't allowed to express yours.

    All I have read from you is feeling attacked and insulted for no reason and being passively and actively aggressive towards others that both disagree and agree with you. How ironic, almost as if you were trying to start a fight in the first place!
    Well I will heed your advice and go back to my pc section, I see that my foray into the PS section in order to get another view on some topics was not worth it, so enjoy your mud hole of negativity!
    ;)
     
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  31. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - argumentative]
     
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  32. manticor225

    manticor225 Well-Known Member

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    Was anyone looking to buy a PS5 solely to play TSW2? I mean... that is a massive waste of both money and the PS5's capability. I feel sorry for anyone that had to "learn" that from what happened...
     
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  33. paulmurphy_88

    paulmurphy_88 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - argumentative]
     
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  34. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    I'm not so sure that would help. DTG isn't a big dev team as it is and splitting it in 3 where there would undoubtedly be some duplication of function would probably outweigh the advantage of more local regional knowledge.

    Obviously, the 3 main regions (the UK, Germany, North America) would be represented but what about LGV Mediterranee or Arosalinie? Would they routes have happened under such a regional set up or would be be destined to only have routes from the UK, Germany, USA?
     
  35. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - argumentative]
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say anything about splitting the current team...

    We already know they have 2nd and 3rd party devs in Germany because they've told us this is the case, and I think in the US too. What I'm saying is that I'm sure there are UE familiar train mad developers in the US, France, Japan, Australia etc etc who would like to make content for the game, even if the CORE game functions are developed out of Chatham Dockyard

    For me this would mean more locos, wagons, buildings, signalling systems and so on could be developed which would allow DTG to concentrate on core systems, coordination and route building, things they're actually pretty good at
     
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  37. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    I suppose a lot of it would come down to cost then. DTG do appear to be always hiring (according to Sam) so either they have a high turnover or they are trying to expand. It could result in more varied content and diversity is never a bad thing, you could be right.
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    A quick look on Companies House shows how they've grown in turnover in the last few years... And yep, they do seem to have a lot of people in the office and studio that they may not have had before. Doesn't mean they're any good... (hopeful irony)
     
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  39. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Well I’ve read on here that some have and yes it would be a waste of the PS5 capability and money. That was my point. If you only use your PlayStation mainly for TSW2 then why bother upgrading? That’s something I learned having played TSW2 on PS4 after the core update which was what this thread was started for

    [edited by Protagonist - removed argumentative portion]
     
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  40. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    This thread has become way too argumentative, far too quickly. Keep it on topic or it will be locked.

    shhweeet#4292 Please allow other users to air an opinion that is different to your own. When posting on a public forum you are inviting public scrutiny.
     
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  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As stated by someone above, high res graphics, more stable fps, better ongoing compatibility... Add in that you get longer trains on GWE and the full suite of layers on Munich and some could justify it...
    (and I'm sure other games would creep into their consiousness)
     
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  42. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Fine but why the hell am I not allowed mine that’s different from others ?? Anyway I’ve had enough of this palava I’m only here because I was directed to it when I first loaded up TSW2 I don’t mind participating and being an enthusiastic member but I’ll be dammed if I’m going to be attacked and constantly and often unfairly moderated whilst others smell of roses

    Is it possible to entirely erase my profile from this forum?
     
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  43. morph147

    morph147 Member

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    Biggest lesson I have seen from all of this is the following
    1) when something goes wrong, communication is key and early communication of what is going on as fast as you can.
    2) make sure when things go wrong that you don't go on stream and when someone tells you something is wrong, laugh at them instead of validating that they are having an issue and saying you will look into it.
     
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  44. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    We moderate even-handedly. In threads like this we'll remove posts that start or perpetuate arguments, while occasionally leaving in place posts that are closer to the line of acceptability if the points made contribute to the discussion. Any time a user starts directly attacking another rather than the argument being made we'll take action. The key here is to not take disagreement personally - retaliation always leads to escalation and that's when topics run off the track.

    If you'd like your forum account removing, please contact me via PM to confirm that you desire to be removed.
     
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  45. SAMiV

    SAMiV New Member

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    I run my TSW2 on old basic PS4, but i have 'upgraded' it by replacing the original HDD with a SSD. Loading times are quicker with it, but not sure are they quite up to PS5 loading times.

    Anyhoo... In the future i probably get PS5. It's cheaper option than getting a new gaming PC.
    I don't even want to think how much i spent on my last PC and it has been broken now for years... Thanks to water cooling leak. :(

    Somewhat offtopic though, but there was some talk on better loading times on PS5.:)

    But i do hope DTG & Sony could finish fixing the missing addons problem. Im not buying any new addons before it has been fixed.

    I guess i now go to try reinstallling them again and see If they show up in my game.
     
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  46. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    I've seen some people have had some success after recycling their console before re-installing, i.e. delete TSW2 and DLC, switch off console and remove power lead, wait a minute or 2 for any cached data to dissipate, re-insert power lead and switch on console, perhaps even do it in safe mode to rebuild the database. Restoring your licences can't hurt either.

    Maybe help.
     
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  47. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    What have I learned? That when DTG entered the console market they thought it would be a lot less complicated than what it's turned out to be. There's more to it than "Just porting it over". :)

    While the game is created on PCs (and was initially solely PC based) they could maybe do with console specific members/teams that work on related areas. Someone who knows the consoles and their associated stores/networks in depth might see problems before they arise. Maybe they already have them, I'm not sure.


    You should maybe listen to your own advice. ;)
    It's an open forum, others often have a different view to yours. To expect otherwise isn't realistic. Take a step away from the keyboard and have a deep breath. Better still go drive a train - we all agree that's good.
     
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  48. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    Yeah, what probably started as a relatively easy way to capitalise on an existing code base, with the revisions and new generations of consoles this has become harder (and more costly).

    I would like to see TSW2 take advantage of console specific features, especially now on PS5. Haptics, for example, could be amazing, with the track rumble felt through the pad and the triggers resisting acceleration and braking.

    You'd feel as if you were really there!! :D
     
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  49. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure that's a valid comment for the current issues. DTG have already ported everything over from PC to console, but this was an issue about upgrading 40 odd interactive elements via the PS store and also splitting licenses with other versions of the same software and DLC within the PS store so that everything worked at the same time without something updating in a precessive fashion
    Given Sony and DTG took a week to solve the issue (and how to roll the fix out) it would seem to me that it wasn't easy for Sony let alone DTG

    Given it worked pretty well on the Xbox there was either a specific balls up somewhere (yet to hear who or what specifically happened beyond "three files got messed up at some point") or something happened in the transfer itself which may well be a sony specific issue.
    Either way hopefully DTG and Sony have learned something, and someone somewhere can devise a system which can allow testing before hand, because it looks like there IS no way of testing what DTG were trying to do before actually just doing it
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As someone who works in health and safety I would start to question whether haptics should be used in that fashion... hand arm vibration would become a thing if someone played a scenario longer than about twenty minutes with the controller constantly vibrating in their hands.
    Last thing we need is vibration white finger from driving a tube train on a TV
     
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