Amsterdam-rotterdam High Speed Line

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by eliasdiederich963, Dec 3, 2021.

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  1. Yes, I would love to

    58 vote(s)
    86.6%
  2. No, better routes can be made than this

    9 vote(s)
    13.4%
  1. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    Dovetail games have focused on German, British and American routes for so long, especially in TSW2. A new route from Amsterdam Centraal to Rotterdam Centraal could change this while being extremely popular and can open up new opportunities for DTG. The route would be 75.6km long, the perfect length for such a route in my opinion. (I couldn't find the length of the route on Google so I spent 40 minutes measuring the dimensions of the line with the measuring tool on Google Earth.)

    The route would model Amsterdam Watergraafsmeer depot, a few kilometres south of Amsterdam Centraal, the route to Amsterdam Centraal, the route to Amsterdam Schiphol airport station which is an underground station serving one of Europe's biggest airports. Then it would model the stretch of a few kilometres to the start of the High Speed Line and the High Speed Line itself. The high speed line is 44km long, permitting speeds of up to 300km/h. Then, the route would have the 1.6km stretch from the end of the High Speed Line to Rotterdam Centraal.

    Route Dimensions

    Total Route length including stretch to depot: 75.6 km
    Amsterdam Watergraafsmeer Depot to Amsterdam Centraal: 5.3km.
    Amsterdam Centraal to Amsterdam Schiphol Airport Station: 17.2km
    Amsterdam Schiphol to Start of HSL: 6.6km
    Start of HSL to End of HSL: 44.4km
    End of HSL to Rotterdam Centraal: 1.6km

    Route operated by NS (Dutch railways) as part of HSL Zuid, a high speed rail project between the Netherlands, Belgium and France. Trains from Eurostar, Thalys, SNCF, SNCB, and NS operate on this line.
    upload_2021-12-3_22-35-12.png
    A map of the route, represented by the yellow line (on google earth).


    upload_2021-12-3_22-35-28.png
    Amsterdam Watergraafsmeer Depot, represented in 3D on Google Earth. You can get an idea of what type of trains would be here.

    I know that this route was in TS2019 so DTG will already have some resources, trains modelled and the safety system modelled. I also know that DTG cannot just copy and paste the route into the unreal engine but having the route in train simulator will make things significantly easier.

    The journey takes approximately 36 minutes and longer if you stop at Amsterdam Schiphol.

    The Trains

    These are 3 trains that I think could come with the route. At least 2 of these should be in the route.

    TGV Thalys PBKA

    This is a variant of the TGV POS. Unlike the TGV Duplex, it has one floor, ten cars, eight seating passengers, and 377 seats. It permits a maximum speed of 300km/h. This train can run on both NS voltages on this route and more. It was built between 1995 and 1998.
    [​IMG]
    Thalys PBKA at Rotterdam Centraal.

    Eurostar e320

    This is Eurostar's mighty passenger carrier. It is known as the BR class 374 in Britain and carries around 900 people. It is a derivative of the Siemens Velaro 3 (Ice 3) family. It replaced the Eurostar e300, also known as the BR class 373. It was put in service at the end of 2015 and has a top speed of 320 km/h.

    [​IMG]
    Eurostar e320 at Amsterdam Centraal.

    NS Class 186

    This is a locomotive ordered to be a temporary replacement for the troublesome V250 trains. They have been in service on this line from 2008 to today, still awaiting replacement. The specific model is Bombardier Traxx F140 MS. 57 of these were built. It has a top speed of 160 km/hand was built by Bombardier between 2006 and 2014. I'd expect this to come with the NS Intercity class 16200 carriages or the ICRm Prio carriages.

    [​IMG]
    NS Class 186

    If possible, all 3 trains should come with this route. If this cannot happen, in my opinion the Eurostar should be the one that doesn't come with the route to give best of both worlds. Only one locomotive in this route would be a big shame.

    Signalling Systems

    The High Speed Line has ETCS level 2 as signalling system while outside it uses the traditional Dutch signalling system. All trains mentioned above are compatible with the Dutch signalling system and ETCS level 2. ETCS Level 2 works similarly to the French TVM 430. More information about ETCS level 2 and the Dutch signalling system can be found on the relevant Wikipedia page.

    Electrification

    Outside of the HSL, the NL 1.5kv DC voltage is used. On the HSL, 25KV AC is used. All 3 trains mentioned above are compatible with these voltages. There are changeover points where the pantograph must be dropped, voltage settings must be changed and then the pantograph can be raised again with a new voltage, much like is done on LGV Mediteranee. These changeover points are at the start and end of the High Speed Line.


    Message to Dovetail Games

    DTG, please don't ignore this. You say that British, German and American routes are the easiest to make and generally the most popular. You already have the resources to build this route from Train Simulator and many people will know and relate to this route. Amsterdam and Rotterdam are big cities with lots of people living in them and travelling to them. One of the primary transport methods to and from these cities is rail. A vast amount of people will have been on this rail network and will be interested in this route.
    Dutch Intercity and High Speed Rail route between the famous, historic cities of Amsterdam and Rotterdam via one of Europe's busiest airports, allowing speeds of up tom 300km/h. You can't ignore that!
    I have spent over 5 hours creating this thread and I ask that you vote to bring this route to
    Train Sim World 2. The game has needed this route for a very long time. Thank you.
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    Here is a detailed cabride of the HSL Zuid line. Watch until 43:45 for the Amsterdam depot-Rotterdam line only. This cabride shows speed, driver's display, speed limit, stations, ETCS status, names of depots and more. It is on the TGV Thalys PBKA.
     
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  3. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    TGV Thalys PBKA is also 15kv 16.7hz for Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen.
     
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  4. aaronbrall#7894

    aaronbrall#7894 Member

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    If you want to find more accurate distances use https://www.thetrainline.com/en/train-times/amsterdam-to-rotterdam, according to that its 59km.
    Aside from that I'd say it could be interesting especially as Thalys trains stop at Schiphol Airport so it would be an A-C run whilst stopping at B, far more interesting than the flat out A-B runs SKA and HMA routes offer (yes I know some ICE trains stop as Pasing)
     
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  5. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Would love to have this route in tsw. We need Dutch routes!
     
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  6. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    The route may be slightly shorter than 75km but it is longer than 59km if you include the stretch to the depot in Amsterdam. What I love about this route is the mix between high speed and more conventional NS rail. You have two different signalling systems, the Amsterdam Schiphol extra stop and the voltage changeovers (two of them). The route passes through the two cities, Amsterdam Centraal is especially famous and beautiful (it has the ability to fit two trains one one platform with points in the middle of the station!), and the unreal engine could model these cities very well, better than was done in TS Classic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
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  7. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I agree and for everyone they might try experimenting Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen ICE3M DB BR406 since it has the 8 13 14 indicators which are for ATB used on non high speed tracks on the route electrified to 1.5kv DC installed of 25kv 50hz ETCS tracks
     
  8. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone was to create Dutch DLC this is the one I'd love,

    Personally I'd like to see the NS186 and Eurostar as the included locos and then the Thalys TGV could become a DLC pack and layer on to SKA as well.

    Its a solid 9.5/10 and a detailed suggestion with loads of info included
     
  9. Sprinter

    Sprinter Active Member

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    Oh yes please!! More TGV and Dutch route. This would be the perfect combination!
     
  10. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

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    This route would suffer from the same problem as LGV Med: it'd be a one-trick pony. You do a depot service, you drive from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, you drive from Rotterdam to Amsterdam, and you're done. The replay value of that is quite low.

    To make the route more appealing, I'd like to see:
    1- an extension from Schiphol Airport to Amsterdam Zuid, as this is used as a diversionary route and in the future will become the main international station for Amsterdam
    2- Rotterdam Centraal - Breda, as this completes the domestic part of the journey
    3- Rotterdam Centraal - Antwerpen Centraal, as this fleshes out the international aspect of the line more. This also gives more playtime for the 186 locomotives, as they work Amsterdam - Breda (reverse) - Antwerp.
     
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  11. Woroszyl The NS 2000

    Woroszyl The NS 2000 Active Member

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    Eurostar e320 needs to be layered on SEHS too, it can run between St Pancras Intl and Ebbsfleet Intl.
     
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  12. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Correct and for SEHS it's KVB St Pancras TVM-430 St Pancras international Ebbsfleet Channel tunnel Lille Fretin Triangle Brussels Midi. This one has ETCS ATB EG NG because there are the indicator lamps 6 8 13 14. You are going to run across this problem in the community is how does ATB EG NG works used on Amsterdam CS Schiphol airport section of the line
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  13. Rail Runner

    Rail Runner Well-Known Member

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    Gets my vote. Especially if Schiphol Airport is added. There are so many calls for a Dutch route, the Netherlands must be added. Unless the Licensing isn’t there, which would be the main issue.

    E320s would be a brilliant addition too :)
     
  14. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Really great route, I would love to have something Dutch in TSW 2, I really want the VRMI Train and the Thalys. The Thalys could be layerd on SKA because it runs from Dortmund to Brussels
     
  15. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    AlexNL, these extensions would surely greatly improve the route and I would love to see them if this route is made. There is also space for them, the route would only be around 70km long without these extensions. The connection to Amsterdam Zuid should definitely be included but I'd be surprised if DTG includes the extension to Breda and Antwerp. These could (and should) be added as an extension or could be made into a separate route in the future. I

    If the route is made Schiphol Airport will be included as the route runs through the station.
     
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  16. kjeld.dejager

    kjeld.dejager Active Member

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    Ii really like teh idea but i think that the oldline/ that liitle rail between Schiphol airport and Leiden also be mead because that gives a more regional excperience and as you know that will be fun for cargo and also you can have a sprinter between Hoofddorp and Amsterdam CS
     
  17. kjeld.dejager

    kjeld.dejager Active Member

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    i think licensing would not a problem only for the safety system unless they can use the first gen of ATB that is ATB Eerste genertaie (first gen)
     
  18. kjeld.dejager

    kjeld.dejager Active Member

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    between, rotterdam,Breda HSL and the Antwerpen schould be added for the high rail and then for the regional it goes via Dordrecht IC and sprinters
     
  19. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure licensing would be a problem. Eurostar has been mentioned often enough for being impossible to obtain a license for, and I can't remember ever seeing the Thalys-brand in a game. Now despite OP mentioning SNCB and SNCF operating trains on those routes, he hasn't told us which trains they operate. Do they operate under their own brands?

    The NS train would probably be the most likely one to pass any licensing deals.
     
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  20. kjeld.dejager

    kjeld.dejager Active Member

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    NS would do it but not the newst (ATB NG)
     
  21. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    Dovetail have done it before and if they want to they can get these trains licensed. Dovetail already have a Eurostar e320 in Train Simulator, I'm not sure if they would need to obtain the license again. Dovetail have also been able to obtain licenses before from SNCF before and taking into account that the SNCF owns 70% of Thalys, I'm nearly sure that this could be done. On the NS side, I don't see any reason why NS wouldn't give Dovetail the license though it may be more of a challenge to obtain the newest version of ATB.
     
  22. tardisgaming07

    tardisgaming07 Well-Known Member

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    Something that would also be interesting is if you could walk out to the front of Rotterdam Centraal due to its unique front design.
     
  23. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean ATB NG and players will try treating it like PZB Deutsche Bahn future ÖBB
     
  24. kjeld.dejager

    kjeld.dejager Active Member

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    ATB EG (Especily) is much like the route Boston-Providence and ATB NG is much like LZB but then there isnt autobrake what the train then for doing you need to brake self.
     
  25. Ferrovipathe67

    Ferrovipathe67 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the TGV PBA lol i propose 3 livery for the PBKA and 1 for PBA the first the the livery on the foto I propose the 2016 livery on the PBKA and the ruby livery with the TGV 4341
     
  26. DEXCON

    DEXCON Member

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    Best suggestion by far. Would love to see this route and with the TRAXX it would be so nice! Love the suggestion!
     
  27. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    The Thalys PBA would also be interesting on this route, the controls of the PBKA are rather similar to the ones on the TGV Duplex in LGV Mediteranee so it would provide contrast. The PBA would be a great loco add-on but I think Dovetail would favour doing the PBKA first.
     
  28. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thalys PBA is actually a TGV Réseau that has Dutch ATB EG NG in addition to KVB VACMA TBL Memor II Belgium. PBKA affects this route SKA and Duisburg-Essen-Bochum-Dortmund/Hagen via Witten route HRR.
    [​IMG]
     
  29. thegooseman414

    thegooseman414 New Member

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    I disagree, the add on should be the older Eurostar and the older TGV
     
  30. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Any Dutch route wouldn't feel Dutch without the iconic NS trains, IMO.
     
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  31. who

    who New Member

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    Highly agree. I once suggested a route with both ICM and Mat '64 trains since they are unique to the Netherlands. Then again, newer material that is also operated in other countries is possibly reusable in the future and thus more cost effective for Dovetail.

    In any case I'll take any Dutch route and trains they are able to give us :)
     
  32. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree. ICM (not ICMm) and Mat64 would be a nice combination of trains. Although I guess some loco-hauled trains would increase possiblities. I'm no expert, but I think the 1700 series were used for both regional double deck coaches and intercity single deck coaches, weren't they?

    The newer stuff is probably more popular amonst the youngsters. It's been a while since Mat64 went out of service, and trains like the SLT can be pretty much seen everywhere throughout the country.

    Not sure I would. Personally I'm not a fan of this suggested route, since it feels like a one-trick pony like all dedicated high speeds lines would be. Our country doesn't have any other high speed lines, so this particular route isn't even prototypical for the country. If it also comes with some international trains like Thalys, ICE or Eurostar, I mean, really, what's the point. Even though it's geographically located within the Netherlands, pretty much everything else would be as non-Dutch as possible. It wouldn't stand out compared to yet another German ICE route.

    If you're gonna make a Dutch route, do it well. Not the HSL.
     
  33. eliasdiederich963

    eliasdiederich963 Member

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    It is true that with the release of TSW3, Dovetail seems to have heavily concentrated on High Speed. The Amsterdam-Rotterdam via Den Haag route seems appealing as well as the one to Breda and Utrecht.
     
  34. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Utrecht endpoint can go into Germany and link with HRR at Duisburg Mulheim Styrum as HDU merged with HRR HDBU
    Hollandstrecke Duisburg Utrecht Merged form Hollandstrecke Duisburg Bochum Utrecht
    Basically, the High speed line to Utrecht has HRR-bound freight which gets stuck at Oberhausen Hbf for a DB BR1429 422 S3 service from there to Mulheim and Der Ruhr Styrum where the freight train moves off the S3 path to use the Regional Inter City tracks to Bochum Ehrenfeld
     
  35. Jay1986

    Jay1986 Member

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    I’d love to see this route in TSW3.
    I for one get tired of seeing the same UK, US and German route format.
    Another TGV french route would be nice also.
     

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