An Open Letter To Dtg And Rivet Games, Tsw, Slop, And You. Where Do You Draw The Line?

I’ve long been a believer of the phrase ”never attribute to malice what can also be attributed to incompetence”, but sadly these days it’s getting harder to tell; and with the release of
Rivet Games’ Southern 171 and 377/3 pack it’s even harder still.

This will not be a long winded rant, I am just simply looking for answers on why both Rivet and DTG think it’s acceptable to release any addon that is so poorly finished and appears to have had so little care.

For starters, you have the 171, a train that has effectively been sold to us for a fourth time that still has issues from the very first iteration, AI marker lights that are missing, ear splitting sound bugs, parts of the cab lighting up with the headlights, light leaks, and not only that, but you have brand new bugs to enjoy such as 5 fps when looking at exhaust smoke, gangways being different lengths and so on.

Then there’s the 377/3, which not only uses the outdated and worse version of the existing 377, but also still features all of the original bugs too! Coupled together with light bleeding through the model onto the right side marker and headlights, seat collisions still there from the original version, tool tips that are still interactable and making noise despite being removed from the model, a suspension setup that occasional launches the train into space, brake pad models that spin with the wheels, gangways that aren’t animated, an out of date PIS system that not only looks terrible, but displays nothing but the final destination, constant sound issues, and more crucially, missing core features such as guard mode and third rail sparks.

The sheer lack of care and quality that we are expected to pay for is frankly shocking, and I refer back to my main question - Why on earth does DTG and Rivet think this abhorrent level of quality and care is even remotely acceptable to try and sell to us? More-so onto to DTG who have been very happy to push content like this out to us from both themselves and multiple parties.

I don’t want platitudes, I don’t want reductive remarks, I don’t want to hear the team are once more allegedly working on fixes to never arrive; I want answers, culpability, solutions and changes. This franchise which we all hold dear has been on a consistent path to becoming Slop Sim World and you have a responsibility to at least uphold a minimum level of quality and finish that should be deemed acceptable, and whatever it is, it should not be this.

Thank you.

 

They will never change. I had the misfortune to fire up the 385 on Edinburgh to Glasgow yesterday evening and the sounds are awful as ever. Much feedback at the time but DTG and Rivet stuck their heads in the sand and ignored the complaints. I really don’t know why DTG continue to use Rivet, they must know where the bodies are buried, or something. So if you are expecting anything to change with the 171 etc., pack don’t hold your breath. Exactly why I didn’t buy it.

 

It seems that Quality control is ignored in favour of getting products on the "for sale" list as quickly as possible. We are the suckers that buy, in the hope that "this time" the result will be better ...and so the cycle repeats.

 

Where all guilty of this at some level, as a primarily PC based player my mental gymnastics excuse their behaviour because our wonderful mod community fixes most of the glaring problems that DTG don't seem to want to address, but in all seriousness they have us over a barrel by being the only option for train simulation (yes there are others, but a lot are mainly US based routes or Europe based routes) i don't know what the answer to this problem is, if we withhold money DTG would just shift focus to other money making sources, and then we all lose, the same problem permeates modern society where there is only 1 to 2 producers with multiple purchasers, the person or persons that solve this conundrum stand to make a lot of money.

 

Reductive remarks? Have you been on these forums? You’ll get them regardless; 'remarks' are what this forum is known for.

But I agree, the line should be drawn. Many users on these forums have noticed that DTG is outsourcing all UK content to Rivet and other third-party teams. I’ve been reading around and found some people saying they did this with TSC before eventually abandoning it."

 

DTG is definitely not going to change anything about TSW.

Just look at all the DLCs that are supposed to be released in March 2026 and sold as such. And DTG doesn't give a damn whether the quality is right or not.
Because DTG says to itself, as long as stupid users buy our bad DLCs, DTG will continue to sell them.

And if there is ever a patch, DTG will hold it back for up to a year, as they did with the TSG patch.
Because DTG doesn't make any money from it, so they'll release the patch when DTG has time.

I buy almost every DLC!
Do you know why? Because it makes a lot of people happy.

 

I'm not guilty of anything. I do my due diligence and if I like the look of something I buy it. If I don't think it's good enough I don't buy it, wait till it's improved or at best wait for a sale.

For what it's worth they have said they will update the sounds on the ECW 377. I for one think the 171 is nicely done and I love the new timetable. The improvements to the 313 are welcome. If I have a desire to drive the 377 I can use the WCML one.

It's those who regularly moan but then have the latest DLC which amuse me!

Things aren't perfect with TSW but they are not nearly as bad as many make out, although I'd caveat that by saying X-box owners certainly have reasons for feel agreaved at the moment.

 

You make it sound like Rivet are sitting on unredacted Epstein Files photos with some very recognisable cat ear headphones, or something!

 

"I'll believe it when I see it" is my mantra these days when they promise a fix for something.

As a former XBox player who switched to PC, you couldn't pay me to go back. Frankly if there's one group of players who would be 100% justified in packing it in and keeping their money going forwards, it's them.

 

I think it’s pretty bad for console users right now. Pretty much every release for TSW 6 has been poor on that side of things. For PS it’s mainly the texture issue which is severe in itself but somehow still can be overshadowed by the state of Xbox, as you said.

The main thing putting me off purchases right now is the texture issue & I think any game that gets itself into a scenario where users are having to gauge how broken the content is before they buy it, is in a bad way.

The texture issue which has been present for nearly 3 years now, has just been allowed to hit breaking point & I think that’s very symbolic of how DTG approaches technical care for TSW. Even now with a potential fix, it’s clearly not going to be quickly rolled out for all content & I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t make it to all of it.

That’s before you get into other multi-platform issues that come with each release, it doesn’t take long for the feedback threads to fill with obvious & sometimes serious problems. They range from non critical but careless mistakes, such as 150’s all being numbered the same, right to game breaking issues such as AI spadding & ending your session.

Then you dive a level deeper & look at broken promises or mis-advertised features such as recently we’ve seen the promise of backported 170 improvements, but that’s exactly what they said the last time they sold a 170 pack. Then you go back to TSW 4 & there are still packs sold for that which are missing suspension, one of the games main launch features.

There are a lot of problems brought to the consumer for seemingly no other reason than releasing sooner than content should have. It usually takes a month or so for the most obvious flaws to be ironed out, I think that’s where release goals should be - when we can’t point out crashing, spadding, missing track, missing features, off path trains & other stand out problems. Beyond that, despite what people like to assert otherwise, they are selling a simulator & are happy to advertise it in such way, so better care does need to be taken around getting the details right. At the moment it seems the latter is only done because 1 or 2 people on a project actually care about said details, instead of being a design philosophy.

Long term care also needs to be improved, as I said above, bigger issues typically get ironed out (though not always) a few weeks post release, but a lot of the time that patch arrives & that’s the last significant update we ever see for a piece of content.

At the end of the day I do agree with you, we’ve all seen the overly emotional & purposeful bash posts etc, and the day I consider posting such a thread I’ll certainly be of the opinion that I need to walk away from TSW instead. However it is hard to try & get criticism & feedback out there. Often we see well written posts get essentially brigaded by people who do just want to pop off at DTG, aswell as people that can’t stand the notion of having anything negative to say. The feedback threads are often inundated with arguments & off topic posting such as ‘it’s not on Xbox yet where is it’ etc & users that will post any old nonsense to argue an issue is either excusable or not an issue. You end up with what looks like moaning after moaning, but it’s often because the previous discussion gets so derailed it’s worthless.

I don’t think the game is as bad as some make it out to be, but I also think it’s much worse than some make it out to be. I also think DTG need to start doing a much better job at giving teams appropriate time to crate content, fixing issues & actually doing something with feedback other than filing it away.

 

Texture Issues have been going longer then 3 years bud, I remember it was persistent in the TSW 3 days. But I agree with you 100%.

 

Agreed and there is much valid criticism and I certainly understand why console players are mightily fed up. I certainly wouldn't be giving DTG another penny if I was a console owner and I would tell them why.

As you say people get emotional which leads to arguments and push back and probably doesn't lead to valid issues being dealt with as many just see a rant and react to it, and I know I can be guilty of doing that.

 

Just stop playing and stop paying (although I am ashamed to say they already got a lot of money out of me!).

That is what I have done.

Realised there is no point trying to convince others, as everyone must make (and is entitled to make) their own choices about the game.

 

Yeah even I have to step away from the game sometimes Hints why I haven't be so active on the forums, I get so frustrated with the game. I just leave it for months sometimes days or weeks then go back to playing.

 

And on top of that we're not even getting all the updates that PC players get (e.g. latest patch on Morristown excluded some scenery improvements on the PS5 version). Many people said it before, we're just a cash cow and we're stuck with TSW as we don't have any alternative (yet).

 

I'm fervently hoping that Firefly can show DTG how to make a high quality product that may not be perfect but will raise the bar for all developers. ( But wait, haven't JT already done that to no avail? ).

I think DTG have a business plan based on profit making to the exclusion of a love of all things trains, which leads to a " release it ready or not " philosophy. Clearly flawed releases sell well enough so that they can largely ignore complaints from a vocal minority of players.

A large factor in the success of this business plan is the absence of realistic competition in the market place. Yes I know there are other train sims, but, honestly, are they offering a realistic alternative to TSW yet? When and if they do bring a real competing sim to market, things may change, but I think that's a long way off.

Believe me, if I thought that one or more of the other current rail sims would satisfy my need for UK and US routes and trains, I'd jump ship in a heartbeat. But we're not there yet.

So we succumb to the current parade of not ready for prime time releases at high and increasing prices, though my own resistance is fairly strong these days. I buy maybe 1/3 of current releases and wait for sales for anything else I want.

And I do appreciate the free upgrades to some routes But there are not enough of them. We need polished versions of many of the older routes, in some cases like CRR and BML just to keep the broken promises made at launch.

Anyway, let's just say I wholeheartedly agree with the general tenor of the thread so far.

 

Maybe because they are shifting focus on this “Metro Rivals” game… the game looks ok but it’s not going to be up there with TSW… it will release. People will play it for a little while then it will die. I could be wrong of course but I doubt it.

 

I'd say its not for Train enthusiasts, I was surprised when they shifted to doing arcade games Its something DTG isn't really known for.

 

What I find unacceptable is the fact that the issues found on new releases aren’t those that manifest themselves over time but are glaring obvious to users as soon as they load them up on day one. This proves beyond doubt that NO testing whatsoever has been done, especially on consoles otherwise, unless the testing team are totally incompetent, which I wouldn’t suggest for a moment, these issues would have been spotted prior to release.

I mean, serious issues wouldn’t have been flagged up and then ignored and the software released anyway would they? Would they?

 

Three *free remasters in a month and the only one that's had any success is GWE, I'll hold my hands up and say I was a colossal....prat (insert your own words here) at times on the GWE remaster thread, But I was incredibly frustrated with the apparent lack of communication and delays and essentially being fobbed off with "just wait until you see what we've got lined up for it" excuses. But it's been an incredible success.

I can't speak about Koln-Aachen as I don't own it but I've heard it's had it's own issues.

Now we have ECW, One of the things that has really annoyed me, is that there are areas that are now broken such as Eastbourne and Lovers Walk depot, and I can't get back the original version which didn't have those issues, so the route for me is now unplayable. It should never have been released in this condition and I'm getting sick and tired of "We're unable to test on console but PC worked fine" excuses. Well that's wonderful for PC, but Console users always get the short end of the stick. Other studios test their games on consoles, hell the new Star Trek Voyager game had console testers before release (as well as PC testers).

I now vote with my wallet and won't buy a DLC just because it's a UK route or Loco. If DTG want me to buy it, they have to earn it.

*To get the full impact of the remaster, you'll need to buy some DLCs for it.

 

Still the outstanding issue of the new timetable causing not just TSW but the hardware, to freeze/lock up completely during or a short while after loading into a save game. It seems to have gone very quiet about that so basically is a major disincentive to actually playing the route if you can't get the run done in one session.

 

While I'm not going to say I told you so... I've been an outspoken voice since TSW3 on all of the issues raised above. Some of you may remember me calling DTG out on this, but offering constructive feedback and never getting aggressive or whatnot.

I believe that TSW could really make leaps and bounds if DTG allowed developers to release the content when the developer of the content felt it was ready. DTG need to look at separating the store a little bit, and giving the developers of content the ability to upload their product to a portal, which then populates into the various marketplaces etc, which allows the developers to update their own routes in real time, instead of DTG gatekeeping updates behind their own updates.

DTG should pour all their resources into just developing the next version of Train Sim World and then just update the one product, the core engine, with them taking a slice of the DLC sales to keep their costs for the core updates coming. Stop the yearly releases with the need to redownload every route again year on year, and just leave it to the developers to update the route to use new features etc through the portal. Pretty much do it like the TSC model has become.

Make 3rd party developers responsible for everything to do with their own products, and DTG just briefly run it through an internal QA system to make sure of compatibility, and they then green-light it, but they don't hold back the updates to fit in with the TSW update schedule. This would probably have prevented the issues with the ATS launch of MAC.

 

When a new DLC comes out you can either spend a lot of time looking for problems or enjoy it, not hard to figure out which camp you live in. I’ve had no problems with the 171 pack, literally none!

 

Also, what a grandiose title, it’s just a forum post like all the rest, get over yourself man.

 

About the whole DTG can't test on consoles thing, why is it that DTG refuses to test on consoles when other game studios do? That honestly doesn't make much sense

 

So players should just ignore blatantly obvious bugs and not talk about them. They should just shut up and just play the product?

I'm sorry but that is just rather ridiculous

 

Console testing absolutely does happen. The issue which particularly came up with the memory issues is that a console dev kit surprisingly is actually very different to the actual market version of the consoles. They are designed to be able to cope with far more unstable code running on them in order for the developer to be able to actually monitor that and change it where appropriate, but not all errors are so obvious. If the dev kit doesn't give you an obvious error and you don't see anything in the game wrong yourself, how are you even going to know that anything needs to be fixed? The answer to this question it seems is that after testing on the dev kits there needs to be testing also done on the actual market consoles, though this is very complicated to achieve and even more so for a relatively small dev team who now even seems to largely rely on outsourcing things to 3rd parties.

Playstations are the worst in this situation however. To test on a Playstation you need to have one of their dev kits, testing on a market PS5 is basically impossible, and IIRC Matt once said that Sony either haven't ever given them one, or may have only provided one for the entire company. And for the same dev kit lockout reason, having beta testers on Playstation is also completely impossible.

 

I thought I'd give Rivet a chance with this pack and honestly I'm 50/50 with the result.

Because on one hand Tyler has put together an exquisite timetable which is totally fantastic and has brought so much life to the route. Its nice to also get the 171, although it does need it's fixes. The DMU variety is definitely a positive.

My issue is that the new locos smell like Rivet, after Riviera I was really hoping Rivet had turned a corner. There are just details missing and bugs. You can tell it hasn't quite had the extra level of polish you'd get from JT and it is noticeable for me.

Now if Rivet can pull it together and get some fixes out then great, historically this hasn't always happened with them.

So I think for now I'm a 3/5 on this one it's not awful. The good bits are very good

 

This is 100% where I am too. I think the 171 was my first full price purchase and I’m loving it in some respects, but also feel a bit let down so far by a lack of polish. If fixes get pushed out then great, but given past experience of a lot of those on here I’m not holding out much hope. If the route and stock issues don’t get patched (and let’s face it, the fanfare is already on to Czechia and Germany this week) then I won’t be buying at full price again & it will be lesson learned.

 

There are separate teams working on the three current franchises at DTG. The team working on Metro Rivals are looking into honing their skills on next generation software development etc - read UE5 for a future iteration of TSW or whatever they choose to call it.
On the point of DTG ‘abandoning’ TSW I don’t think that’s the case…I see them (if they haven’t already) positioning themselves as a publisher rather than a developer. That’s no bad thing as far as I’m concerned particularly if one looks at the standard of recently released dlc…All Aboard Studio for one and the upcoming release from Firefly.
Personally, I’d like to see DTG focus on remastering routes and core improvements and more importantly getting away from an annual release with shiny half done routes which may in fact leave them sufficient time to fix core problems properly. Leave dlc to 3rd parties.

 

Newsflash: DTG have always worked like this. It was the same thing during the TSC days. It´s been like that since this company exists. They would reuse rolling stock in different routes and copy over the same mistakes and never fix anything.

 

Or introduce new bugs, like when they copied the SD40-2 for the TC.

 

Ah yes, another thread moaning about the game. With all the familiar faces making an appearance and repeating themselves. Just great [sarcasm].

 

I totally agree with the last part there. I also would like DTG to remaster old routes. Absolutely.

 

Reminds me of Bungie, ignored the playerbase that was actually paying the bills and spaffed all their money and talent up the wall making and cancelling garbage before finally getting around to squeezing out another game that none of their fanbase actually wants.

 

We moan because the game has many serious problems that DTG are uninterested in fixing or even acknowledging.

 

I do agree making another moaning thread doesn't fix the problem, I do complain at the constant rant threads aswell. for Example the over used enough is enough threads.

 

#

Lemme just recount... we had Enough is Enough the original, then one directed at EMUs, then one directed at Thomas... getting a bit like the Terminator movies at this point.

 

QA at Rivet feels like

 

Just to add to the hopium and copium of "please DTG. Change. For me? With sugar on top.": It took them 7 years to fix the Northeast Corridor for TSC.

 

I wonder what the forums would be like if there was no criticism and all the posts said " everything in the garden is rosy " with TSW?
Would you be happy with that?
Would you still read the threads?

From now on, I'm going to interpret the words " moan " and " moaning " as affirmations that some of us are maintaining a healthy skepticism and casting a critical eye over the game and its creators.

 

TSW is the best it ever has been. It has issues, yes, but they are yet to annoy me to the point of frustration.

I've just learned to live with it. Never will change.

 

No you are right, constructive criticism is fine and is the way to get this game to improve and move in the right direction (and indeed, this is not 'moaning' at all, and my remarks were certainly not aimed at you ).

What I can't stand though is the non-nuanced all out negativity that some users on here are guilty of, not to mention the attacks on the makers of this game and its employees. It will achieve you nothing.

 

In my opinion, moaning about the "moaners" in every thread, is way worse then the people "moaning" about the quality of the game.

 

Oh I'm sorry, we should remember that no criticism is permitted. Our bad.

(Also Sarcasm.)

 

It is quite possible to both enjoy TSW but still have grave concerns about QA and management direction. Particularly where Rivet is concerned, even if they have pulled their socks up a bit of late they still have a legacy of poor quality and largely unfixed content behind them. It's Particularly worrying for the future of UK content if, as suspected, DTG have largely dispensed with their in house route and train building personnel to rely on a flawed associate.

 

OldVern sadly from what I can see the beloved TSG is also going down the way of Rivet and Skyhook pretty damn fast. Overpromising and underdelivering seems to be more and more rampant. Missing core features, delayed updates, rushed releases, the bingo card is getting fuller by the day. It feels like DTG is dictating the agenda for 3rd parties and everyone is afraid to admit due to legal implications. JT somehow managed to stay clear and deliver what they promised up to current time, but they seem to have the longest development cycles of all 3rd parties that actually delivered something.

We can always rely to get another "gameplay pack" slop from all the other studios, which is just a cashgrab attempt to give console users content we had on PC as mods, such as the Tyler timetables, or cargoline packs that got less and less intresting with every new edition.

I personally have only bought Stuttgart-Heilbronn since TSW 6 released, and probably the Czech route will be my last purchase in this cycle. No other content piece showed enough commitment to warrant the money DTG and the developers are asking for them.

This is not a diss at the individuals working hard behind the scenes, and passionate about releasing something they are proud of, it is a warning for the people at the top pulling the strings, in this economy you cannot afford mistakes no more, its not the COVID era anymore, people are forced to decide what to buy, and incomplete DLC are on the bottom of that list.

I sincerely hope there is no TSW 7 already in development, but if it is, it is probably also the best deal we will get for another entire year in terms of content and post release support for the money.

 

Somebody tell me: How many employees does DTG have? And how many of them are devs?

 

Here you go: https://dovetailgames.com/our-people

What I noticed, a lot management jobs and other kind of side jobs, but not as many devs.

 

There's also one glaring omission on that list of faces!