Antelope Valley And Its Freight Content

EDIT 3:
I'm not gonna redo the entire thread cause I'm not in the mood to but in short.....

1. Add the UP SD70ACe as a default loco for the route.
2. Add AT LEAST the Maxi IV's to the route as default (Bonus if in yellow fake TTX colors)

This would fix the confusion of the layering.

3. Change the timetable names to the correct UP train symbols instead of generic A-B runs.
List would be.....

NORTHBOUND
-ZLCLT (LATC to Lathrop, CA) Stacks
-ZLCTM (LATC to Tacoma, WA) Stacks
-ZLBDV (Long Beach to Denver) Stacks
-ILBOAR (Long Beach to Oakland Repositioning) Baretable

SOUTHBOUND
-ISELC (Seattle to LATC) Stacks
-ILTLB (Lathrop to Long Beach) Stacks
-IOALBR (Oakland to Long Beach Repositioning) Baretable

4. Potential additional AI and 1 playable service from layering from Sherman Hill and Peninsula Corridor.

-Adds AI UP trains between Landaster and the Palmdale Cutoff
-Adds the former Vulcan Rock Train from Palmdale to Sun Valley, adds rock unloading to the route.

 

Apply for Dovetail and if you get the job you can fix it

 

Agree with the OP, including a previously released UP loco with the route would not have gone against the policy of only one new loco per DLC. Peak Forest came with one new loco but you weren’t expected to own SoS to get the Jubilee and 8F. Given the mixed feeling releasing as TSW4 has created in some quarters and we are still seeing such rumblings on the forum (not from me I hasten to add), just bundling a bit of extra loco and stock with the route might have offset that a bit.

Not too late to rethink this one, DTG. Just bundle the UP locos in with AVL and give everyone the correct consists on the route.

 

tldr... i only stared at "should of" 3 or 4 times.

 

And there´s me, the non-native english speaker, who tries to get that foreign language right. Why, I ask myself?

 

Back on topic, most of the freight layering issues don't affect me personally since I own all the US freight routes, but one thing I strongly agree on is the need for headcodes (and their equivalents). Another improvement needs to be scrolling service names where they exceed the length of the display allocated

 

Thanks I feel like LOVE now....

 

Sorry OP, it’s a very common thing. I should have just read it. I could’ve read it, I would have read it, but I couldn’t get past those headings. Apologies for joining in the grammar police.

 

The error occurs due to "should of" sounding the same as "should've", which is the contraction of "should have" in British and American English. Equally applies to "would of" and "could of"

 

Dovetail please delete this thread, I don't care anymore

 

Thanks for the explanation. I figured it was an acoustic thing, just wasn´t sure if this form is allowed or not.

Obs.: Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

OP has deleted the thread, which is a shame because it actually had great ideas. I have pasted his post below:

I think it would be possible to fix this with the official editor, it will just be a lot of work.

 

How’d this thread go from big American freight trains to.. “should of” "should've" "should have" "would of" "could of"

 

Lack of some discreet moderator "keep on topic" intervention.

And back on topic, it would still be nice to hear from DTG why they decided not to bundle a UP loco and suitable stock and be done with it.
Surely that would also have avoided the complex layering that's needed to be done depending on what US routes you actually own...?

 

I have all the layered freight options, but still again, like the UK (or Germany with Reisa Dresden) - I agree this probably should have come with bundled loco and rolling stock really...

 

I’m genuinely sorry for my earlier post and hope such comments won’t stop you posting your thoughts and ideas on the forum in future.

 

You made some good points. There are lots of opportunities for layers.

German routes get some very nice layers and British routes too although it can be a bit hit and miss.

 

This meme ought to say “The number of people”, not “the amount of people”. If memes are going to correct people’s English they really need to get it right themselves

Anyway, for the freight layer who knows what the right way of doing it is.

 

It does seem a shame at least something wasn't included to run freight out of the box, especially for newcomers to TSW. I imagine many people have the routes required, however I don't have Sherman Hill and currently don't have any plans to purchase it.

 

May have been late to the party (but managed to read the salvaged op someone posted), but I do have to agree on this one. This feels like another case where freight is another secondhand thought on US passenger routes, as usual, but this time more unfinished and (no offense) sloppier than Trention or Peninsula. I do agree the layering could've been handled differently without having Cajon Pass included to ignore it as the last US freight route made (it might be a core route to TSW3, doesn't mean not everyone plays that route for sure), and could've just thrown in a UP ACe with intermodals instead as part of the route without too much of a hassle with the physics. Not to mention I would also like to find out why the LATC is not there to begin with (Probably not to make the same mistake from Oakville, but who knows at this point).

This thread may sound like ramblings of a madman, but at this point, he ain't wrong. I do see a flaw in how DTG handled freight services on NA routes in the past compared to other routes from UK or Germany, for better or worse. And while Trenton did have enough rambles to get an update the people wanted, it would be best to get the same treatment for Antelope Valley as well if there is enough to be heard. Otherwise, I'm done seeing what the results are for the next 2 US routes on the roadmap if this secondhand thought keeps getting worse and worse over the years, as I'm already done with high hopes now. Not for freight routes, but for passengers as well.

 

Well, I pre-ordered the deluxe version and I have the requisite routes, so I guess I'll get the " full monty " with AVL freight.

But I have to agree with BlacknRed81. It's really not good enough and, if you don't have the layers, there's that persistent feeling that, when it comes to US fans, we keep getting the short end of the stick.

 

I mean, you yourself told me yesterday after the stream I had my expectations set too high for what we actually saw on the stream. And I have first hand knowledge of the route and equipment. Lol. I retracted those comments after I found out I was wrong. Maybe it was assumed here that you too had your expectations set too high. See, it's easy to do. Not fun when someone else calls you out on it and others follow and blast you like what happened to me.

BUT...!, I agree with you and what you said on this thread completely. I had much higher hopes for how freight was going to be handled on the route and am quite disappointed on that aspect. Would have been easy to include some basic UP DLC as part of the route, especially since DTG already have it. You named pretty much all the freight that runs up and down the line and it would be nice to see. You put a lot of effort into this post with good knowledge. It's clear that you too have deep knowledge of the AV Line. I like to see it. Sorry it turned out the way it did.

 

I was one of the thread hijacking gangsters. But, by any means, not to trigger such categoric reaction. That wasn´t my intention. So, please accept my apologies and bring back the thread.
I don´t have the slightest clue about north american railroading and learn a lot of it also from your deep knowledge threads, not to forget. Hey, I even choose Cajon Pass as the screenshot winner´s price from DTG and really enjoy it.

 

I didn't know this policy existed. How many locos were bundled with the updated SEHS release?

 

Not sure when it started or if DTG publicly stated their intention, but if you look at most recent route DLC, apart from SoS where I guess they had to give us two steam locos, there has only been one all new train. In the case of the Glossop route not even that, we got a retasked 323 from BCC.

 

That's why I hope we get way more 3rd party developers so we get far more rolling stock. There are too many locos to make and too few people currently capable of doing them.

 

I also agree with the OP and would also encourage you to revive your original post!
After all these years of TSW franchise new routes really should come with all apropriate stock when it's already available without any extra work.
It's been done on SEHS and DRA (at least mostly) before and wouldn't hurt anybody but make the new product more attractive.
With Cajon as base layer the damage is minimal as many players should have it out of TSW3s base (instead of SH) and personally I find the current solution quite fair, but am somehow more interested in when the MP36 for the route gets announced in order to get more variety there than on the actual route... and that really shouldn't be the case.

 

It's never been publicly announced as official policy, but, since Rush Hour, that's been the norm and players have apparently accepted it with just a few murmurings of unhappiness.

Rather like the reduction in the size of some candy bars and other products in recent years. Quiet but effective business-wise.

 

What was the the thread about?

 

I was wondering that. Most forum software doesn’t let you edit the title once posted!

 

i think it was about people having to own other routes in order to be able to have the freight layers on antelope valley, and how it should of been included
but my memory might be wrong
edit: I was wrong

 

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/73139/#post-710479

 

Slightly rebooted the thread with a watered down version of the Original Post.

 

I simply don't understyand why DTG doesn't include re-used UP traction with the game, and skips the layering games altogether. Voraarlberg comes with a 185 and ECML with a 66, so why the heck not an SD70 here?

 

As I said before somewhere, maybe they think their strategy of requiring ownership of previous routes will lead to new purchases of CJP, SH and CC.

I seriously doubt it will lead to substantial sales myself, but I'm not a marketing expert. I do think that the bad feelings engendered by this policy will probably outweigh any sales gains.

 

Thing is DTG tend to do a really poor job of highlighting what content layers into routes. If you don't read Dovetail Live or happen to catch the five minute stretch where they talk about layers in a three hour livestream you wouldn't even realize that most of these extra layers even exist. It's hard to sell something when you don't even really put in the effort to tell people about it.

 

I thought it was a decent idea to make the freight load up from a core TSW3 route actually. Its been done in the past with a minority owned route being used and people complained that they were just trying to drive sales of lesser bought routes. IMO if you care enough about UP being on here you likely own both anyway so it will appear that way for you.

 

Personally I haven't seen arguments against a route being used as a layer due to it being a poor seller. Doesn't mean it's never been made, but it does suggest to me this is not a frequent complaint. But even if it is common it's a stupid point regardless when we don't even get hard data for how many units routes actually sell. We can't say DTG are using new layers to bump up poor selling routes when we don't know if they even sold poorly. Also there's some absurd suggestions that this arguement can lead to, like that every German route's a poor seller because of their frequent layering, or that every American route must be selling well because they often lack it. And i have my doubts either statement is remotely true.

 

At 13 minutes into the Antelope stream Matt says that an "awful lot more people" own Cajon Pass than Sherman Hill, so there you go.

 

But the question is though, will any new players be able to figure it out?

They buy TSW4 alone they dont get any layers.

If they know that UP runs the line, they buy Sherman Hill and don't get layers cause they need Cajon Pass to work.

1 loco and 1 piece of rolling stock added to the route isn't much to ask, especially if they don't do any updates to the loco itself.

 

It is disheartening to see this 1 route 1 loco “policy” in full action here. It would have cost DTG nothing to include the already made UP loco and freight cars in this route, but instead they chose to go for this layering idea. Even as someone who owns CJP and Sherman Hill I feel those should have been included rather than layers. Maybe I am naive, but I even think including the SD70 in the base TSW4 game could have broadened new players horizons to US freight and potentially spurred sales on CJP and Sherman Hill. It just seems DTG went with an odd and extremely consumer unfriendly option. We are not asking for 2-3 brand new locos with each route (though maybe we should be, but that’s an issue for another thread) but when they have the loco already made, and released basically 2 years ago, they could included it.

 

Even back when Peninsula Corridor came out, they went and took the existing GP38-2 model and made it into Union Pacific model for the route itself. (Granted it does have some issues)

 

I don't tag DTG in very often but I do think we could do with an official response from DTG JD or DTG Matt as to why the UP SD70 + appropriate freight cars weren't just included with the route rather than having this needlessly byzantine layering arrangement.

(Thanks both, sorry for tagging you on a Sunday night.)

 

Yeah, I'm just failing to understand why at least ONE UP locomotive (SD70ACe or GEVO ES44DC, or both) and at the very least, stack cars, weren't included? Even if its just meant to be AI and not drivable, that's fine. At least they'd be layered in properly. It would be nice to meet or pass a UP stack train. If they were to be drivable, that's a plus. Not everyone purchased TSW3, like myself. So you can't assume everyone has Cajon Pass because I'm sure more than a few people don't.

Would be nice to see a reply from DTG on this.

 

Another interesting thought... even those of us who own all the UP content won't be able to see the freight as AI or drive it during the Deluxe version early access period, as our existing TSW content doesn't come across until the 26th...

Yes, this route should definitely have had at least one UP freight loco bundled with it to cover the services.

 

It would be great for whoever buys Antelope Valley if freight just came with it. However, all USA routes have only ever came with just freight or just passenger, except for SFJ. In fact, I can't think of any USA routes at all where another DLC layers actual playable services. So, from a certain point of view DTG is actually advancing the state of USA content by offering any services from layers at all.

From my point of view, this would be less of an issue in any case if Antelope Valley had instead been a more meaningful route selection in the first place. But then again, perhaps DTG thought it better to include this in TSW4 at launch, realizing that it may attract very little attention as a standalone DLC. Maybe this explains the lack of included freight: that would entail training, scenarios and journey entries, and perhaps that was a bridge too far for what is essentially just a "USA route" bone to throw into the TSW4 heap.

As I said before, Antelope Valley might be just another entry into the USA Content Is Still Severely Flawed category. However, it's also possible that the other two routes on offer for TSW4 are flawed as well.

I do wonder, though, about the player who buys Antelope Valley and discovers the need for both CJP and SMH to get right-looking freight layers. Hopefully they will find this forum someday, and tell us what they think about it. Quite looking forward to that, actually.

 

I think it's clear that freight was not the focus and perhaps even an after thought, simply by the fact that the very start of the LATC yard tracks are modeled in the game but they did not choose to model the rest of it. The addition of the yard alone would've been a huge boost to freight authenticity on the route. Also no apparent southbound trains is not authentic either. Perhaps like NateDogg7a said, it is just another entry into the USA Content is Still Severely Flawed category, when this time it really feels like it didn't have to be.

 

I feel like Dovetail is starting to move towards passenger and freight trains being there own separate routes, especially for U.S content. NY-Trenton had the ability have more freight, but doesn’t in the end. Yes putting can signaling in the GP38 and SD40 must’ve been a little difficult but couldn’t been at least attempted at.