Are Routes Long Enough + What Truly Makes A "great" Route?

The topic I want to raise and discuss in detail is route length, something that has been discussed heavily recently - particularly on the Suggestions forum - in regards to TSW's Routes. It also ties in nicely with the ongoing Extensions debate.

So, Length of Routes. It's been a bit of an up, down, up, down affair. Here's a rundown of them across the games, and countries, by developer;

BY ROUTE
Key
Bold - Longest route at release
Italics - Shortest route at release
Blue - Third Party release

TSW2020
Sand Patch Grade - 52mi (---)
Great Western Express - 36mi (↓16)
Rapid Transit - 44mi (↑8)
NEC: New York - 32mi (↓12)
West Somerset Railway - 23mi (↓9)
Ruhr Sieg Nord - 38mi (↑15)
Long Island Railroad - 42mi (↑4)
Northern Transpennine - 43mi (↑1)
Main Spessart Bahn - 40mi (↓3)
Tees Valley Line - 27mi (↓13)
Peninsula Corridor - 47mi (↑20)
Rhein-Ruhr Osten - 26mi (↓21)
East Coastway - 30mi (↑4)
CN Oakville Sub - 24mi (↓6)
Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr - 28mi (↑4)

TSW2
Bakerloo Line - 14mi (---)
Sand Patch (TSW2) - 52mi (---)
Köln - Aachen - 43mi (---)
Isle of Wight - 8.5mi (↓5.5)
Munich - Augsburg - 39mi (↑30.5)
LGV Mediterranee - 58mi (↑19)
Southeastern HS - 51mi (↓7)
Arosa Linie - 16mi (↓35)
Clinchfield Railroad - 64mi (↑48)
Hamburg - Lübeck - 39mi (↓15)
Cathcart Circle Line - 20mi (↓19)
Cane Creek - 40.8mi (↑20.8)
Boston Sprinter - 47mi (↑6.2)
Dresden - Riesa - 51mi (↑4)
Brighton Mainline - 50mi (↓1)
West Cornwall Local - 44mi (↓6)
Sherman Hill - 58mi (↑14)
Tharandter Rampe - 49mi (↓9)
Harlem Line - 24mi (↓25)
Luzern - Sursee - 16mi (↓8)
Horseshoe Curve - 58mi (↑42)
Spirit of Steam - 36mi (↓22)
IOW 2022 - 8.5mi (↓27.5)

TSW3
SEHS 2.0 - 89mi (---)
Cajon Pass - 85mi (---)
Kassel - Würzburg - 116mi (---)
Birmingham Cross City - 37mi (↓52)
Bremen - Oldenburg - 31mi (↓6)
Edinburgh - Glasgow - 47mi (↑16)
New York - Trenton - 58mi (↑11)
Linke Rheinstrecke - 57mi (↓1)
Niddertalbahn - 19mi (↓38)
Midland Mainline - 37mi (↑18)
Peak Forest Railway - 38mi (↑1)
Glossop Line - 14mi (↓24)

TSW4
ECML: P'borough - Doncaster - 80mi
Vorarlberg: Lindau - Bludenz - 41.6mi
Metrolink Antelope Valley Line - 75mi
Preston - Blackpool/Ormskirk - 46mi (↑32)


AVERAGES
Note; Averages are only accurate as of the Midland Mainline DLC Release.
TSW 2020
UK - 31.8mi
US + CAN - 37.7mi
DE - 57km
Overall - 34.83..

TSW2
UK - 32mi (↑0.2 - counting IOW as one)
US - 50mi (↑5.5)
DE - 71km (↑14)
Other - 48.5km (↑24.5)

TSW3
UK - 52.5mi (↑20.5)
US - 71.5mi (↑21.5)
DE - 89.75km (↑18.75)

TSW4
UK - 63mi (↑10.5)
US - 75mi (↑3.5)
AT - 41.6mi (---)
DE - None, yet. (↓89.75)
CH - None, yet. (---)
Overall - 64.65 mi

BY DEVELOPER
Dovetail Games (DTG) - 43.37mi (38)
Rivet Games - 23.33mi (26.3 if IOW counted once)
Skyhook Games - 45.2mi
Train Sim Germany (TSG) - 19mi
Just Trains - 46mi

OVERALL
40.475 miles (65.14km)

So, the numbers suggest that our average is roughly 40 miles. I imagine that the TSW3 base routes inflate this figure as well, but they are part of it all the same.

So, with that out the way, let's actually look to the discussion.

There are many people, on the forums or other platforms, who judge routes in large part on their raw length. Which I think is a poor metric. Firstly, time is an important one to consider. If we had a 100 mile commuter route with a stop every few miles, it would take you hours upon hours, and even with a save feature, it wouldn't be great.

Let's take the five TSW3 routes that released in 2022, so those are;

• SEHS 2.0
• Cajon Pass
• Kassel - Würzburg
• Birmingham Cross City
• Bremen - Oldenburg

Southeastern Highspeed (TSW3)
Southeastern Highspeed has a total of 89 miles, with the conventional lines from Dartford - Faversham, and the Highspeed line from London to Ashford. The TSW2 Version, as many will know, only has HS1 from London to Ebbsfleet, and the conventional line from there to Faversham.

The route comes with the BR Class 395 for Highspeed services, and the BR Class 375/9 and BR Class 465/9 for conventional commuter services. The Class 66 features for freight.

Class 395 / Southeastern Highspeed
The Class 395 'Javelin' offers you two service types - excluding the Charity Javelin.
*Ashford <-> St Pancras
*Faversham <-> St Pancras

*May have a different destination, but this is where your journey will end.

Ashford - St Pancras services run along High Speed 1, with some skipping the intermediate stations, but most stop. These usually take 38-40 minutes.

As for services that go onto the conventional line to Faversham, these take around 65-75 minutes.

Southeastern Conventional Services
The Class 465 and 375 have very different handling as a driver, with the 465 accelerating and decelerating rapidly, while the 375 can feel quite sluggish, especially at higher speeds. The Class 465 offers services on the following paths:

Gravesend <-> Dartford*
*Faversham <-> Dartford*
*Rochester <-> Faversham*
*Rochester <-> Gillingham

*May have off-map destinations.

Whereas, the 375 only offers:
Rochester <-> Faversham
Rochester <-> Gillingham
as well as some ECS moves.

Gravesend - Dartford services take 12-16 minutes, and Faversham - Dartford services take roughly 60 minutes.

Rochester - Faversham services take roughly 30 minutes for the Class 465, and 33-35 minutes for the Class 375.
Rochester - Gillingham services take 9-12 minutes for both.

Freight services can take up to an hour, however these are split into multiple parts.

CAJON PASS
This American BNSF Freight route offers players the change to play with either the ES44C4 or the SD40-2 by default. The route from San Bernardino - Victorville is roughly 85 Miles long, and at relatively low speeds, it does take a while.

Length of services can vary largely, depending on the weight of your service, and which direction you are travelling along. The general service types are:

San Bernardino - Victorville
Barstow - Victorville
San Bernardino - Barstow

Services from San Bernardino - Victorville are the longest services, taking 72-109 minutes.
Barstow - Victorville services, on the other hand, are roughly 40 minutes long.
San Bernardino - Barstow only happens a few times, but this can take 68-124 minutes.

The SD40-2 takes roughly the same amount of time to complete these runs.

KASSEL - WURZBURG
This Intercity Express gem is the longest route in the TSW franchise, at 116 miles. It comes with the ICE3 (BR 403), ICE1 (BR 401) and the BR 185 for freight.

InterCity Express (ICE)
For passenger services, the service variation is as follows:
Kassel - Würzburg
Kassel - Fulda

However, it is worth noting that due to its considerably lighter weight, the BR 403 suffers speed restrictions at some points along the route, adding the the journey time a little bit.

Full-length services from Kassel to Würzburg take roughly 60-70 minutes. Services from Kassel that terminate at Fulda take roughly 30-35 minutes.

Freight
Freight mostly runs at night on Kassel - Würzburg, when most passenger trains are parked up for the night, so the tracks are cleared, paving the way for freight trains to operate freely. However, freight trains (obviously) cannot reach the same speeds as ICE trains can, so it does take them longer.

Freight trains perform moves from:
Kassel - Würzburg
Kassel - Fulda
Kassel - Burgsinn

Kassel - Würzburg services take upwards of 2 Hours, coming in at 120-145 minutes.
Kassel - Fulda services are just over 1 Hour.
Kassel - Burgsinn services take between 1 hour & 28 minutes - 1 hour & 45 minutes.

BIRMINGHAM CROSS CITY LINE
The Cross City line is quite simple thanks to the one-train approach present.

Services run from Bromsgrove and Redditch in the South to Lichfield City / Trent Valley in the north, cutting through Birmingham City Centre in the process.

Services are the following:
Lichfield - Redditch | 1h, 15mins - 1h, 30mins
Lichfield - Bromsgrove | 1h, 8mins - 1h, 20mins
Four Oaks - Bromsgrove | 59mins - 1h, 3min
Four Oaks - Redditch | 1h, 2mins - 1h, 10mins
Birmingham - Redditch | 24-37 mins
Birmingham - Bromsgrove | 31-34 mins
Birmingham - Lichfield TV | 27-42 mins
Birmingham - Four Oaks | 14-25 mins

BREMEN - OLDENBURG
Germany's first (semi)-Retro route takes us to the northwest, between Bremen and Oldenburg. Travelling with the BR 110, BR 425 and N-Wagen, as well as the BR 155 in PRESS livery, Bremen Oldenburg offers a lot to play with, even without layers.

BR 110 + N-Wagen
The BR 110, accompanied by the N-Wagen coaches, offers a classic way to run along this line. The 110 generally leads the way leaving Bremen, and the N-Wagen does the opposite, although these are occurrences when this rule doesn't prove true.

The 110+N-Wagen operates services from Bremen <-> Oldenburg. This takes 30-49 minutes, and is roughly the same regardless of what end you drive from.

DB BR 425
The modern alternative, however, is the DB BR 425. This pretty much exclusively runs services from Bremen - Hude, taking 20 minutes heading to Hude, and an extra minute if heading into Bremen.

BR 155 PRESS
Services are wildly varied in this case, ranging from roughly 16 minutes - 46 minutes.

Now, I can conclude this section. As you can see, even the short Birmingham Cross-City and Bremen - Oldenburg routes take up a decent amount of time to complete services on.

TRAINS, VARIETY, QUALITY
That could either be a new heading, or the Holy Trinity of what makes a good TSW Route. For the sake of this post, we'll go with the former.

Trains are a massive factor in what makes a good route. Take Rivet's routes, for example. Generally their route building hasn't been bad, not since WCL released anyway. However, the sounds and physics of their trains are what let them down, and is generally the feedback of the community. The 484 was probably their best attempt so far, and the 385 is certainly a lot closer than the others - especially physics wise. The sounds need major improvements in certain aspects, however they do sound like a 385, especially from outside.

On the flipside, Midland Mainline - which to be fair on Skyhook, is their first UK Route, and their first route outside the United States - has some areas with dead average scenery, whilst some other areas have really good scenery. Stations aren't bad, but could be better. It captures the feel of the route. However, what appears to hold the route up is the 158 and HST. Save for a few issues, two iconic trains with a good soundset and accurate physics sells itself to the majority of UK Railfans instantly, and I'm sure if/when things are ironed out that's exactly what would happen. Maybe it has already, who knows.

Midland Mainline is the first 3rd party route to contain two brand new or heavily modified trains in TSW's History (unless the WCL 37 counts), and that brings me onto point #2; The number of trains.

You can create quite a comprehensive list of major terminal stations that have a lack of rolling stock in TSW - and it's nobody's fault:

• New York Penn (LIRR, NYT)
• Grand Central Terminal (GCT)
• Luzern (LZN)
• Marseille Saint-Charles (LGV)
• Köln Hbf (SKA - Base TT
• Aachen Hbf (SKA - Base TT)
• München Hbf (HMA - Base)
• Augsburg Hbf (HMA - Base)
• Glasgow Central (GCC)
• Birmingham New Street (BCC)
• Manchester Victoria (NTP)
• Darlington (TVL)
• Glasgow Queen Street (EDN)
• Edinburgh Waverley (EDN)

Now, you'll notice that there's as many UK stations on this list as Germany and the US combined. This is the problem I think. People jump to blame Dovetail (or whoever releases the DLC in question) for empty stations, and it's hardly their fault. German routes - as time has progressed - have mastered this, but that is only really because German routes all have the same operator, Deutsche Bahn (DB), and so rolling stock can be made easily (with minimal need to arrange new licenses with new companies, for certain routes), in stark contrast with the US and UK, where companies are split regionally along routes (bar Intercity operators, such as Avanti West Coast and Amtrak, as they tend to go from the start of a route to the end of it, such as the West Coast Mainline in the UK, or the NEC in America).

Sidenote: Marseille and Luzern are the only routes in their countries that can offer appropriate stock (Arosa Linie is a different region, and also a different gauge)

This makes it more difficult to layer rolling stock across routes to create busy terminals, as trains are very regionalised, and only certain TOCs go to certain stations. In Germany (and, in large part, Switzerland and France), there one major TOC that goes pretty much everywhere, and has similar stock across the country.

Variety
The variety in a route is something that many people seem to care about. A-B routes are not as interesting as a A-B/C/D-E kind of route.
Cathcart Circle, Southeastern Highspeed (TSW3 version), Midland Mainline, Long Island Railroad, East Coastway and Riesa - Dresden are all great examples. Also, all of them, minus Cathcart Circle and (to a lesser extent) Midland Mainline are filled with a great variety of rolling stock.

Cathcart Circle offers players two branches, as well as the core circle line, which provides services both clockwise and anti-clockwise. The 314 is alone on this route, however there is no appropriate stock to help it out (it's set in 2014, so the 385 isn't an option).

SEHS (TSW3), now has the Dartford and Ashford Lines, and the services patterns are located above.

Midland Mainline is a 'tri-point route', with Leicester at the bottom, and Nottingham/Derby being the two points of the fork at the top. The route isn't entirely full with just the EMT HST and 158, and it is Skyhook's first passenger timetable, so I won't be too harsh on it.

LIRR has it's mainline, a branch, and the M3 (DLC) + M7 as rolling stock.
ECW also has a mainline, a branch, and the 313 (DLC) + 377 for rolling stock.

Riesa - Dresden was seen at release as what German routes had been building up to. When it released it had 7(?) trains bundled in with it, pretty much all upgraded and modified so they were the highest quality versions in the game, as well as being appropriate to the Dresden area. It did feel as if every single German train in the game was here. Although, Dresden Hbf was somehow busier in the Dresden - Chemnitz route. Thanks Joe!

Quality
The quality of a route comes down to pretty much everything I've said here.

Route-building is incredibly important. If the route doesn't at least feel like the real thing, then what's the point in it?
Sounds and Physics are, of course, what makes or breaks a train in this game. If it sounds or handles wrongly, it's not good. In a game of TSW's nature, this should be an expectation, and I don't believe it's unreasonable or overly assertive to suggest this.

New/fun features are always a good thing with a route. Credit where it is due - Rivet did add some really good features on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route, namely Neutral Sections (albeit, not implemented right, but better than nothing) and announcements (they sound wrong, but a cool feature anyway).

CONCLUSION
If you have read this extremely long post this far, I would like to thank you. And also salute you for making it this far.

I initially started this to talk about length however it did evolve into something bigger. Maybe something more important as well.

The forums has - and this is my first opinionated section here - devolved into largely irrational and sensationalist debate recently. Things are either blasted as terrible, or praised as being fabulous. There is a shrinking middle ground of constructive criticism, and good, worthwhile suggestions. All we are seeing is suggestions of extensions (that won't happen), rather than suggestions of how to improve the game, it's routes, it's trains, and it's experience.

I've seen loads of threads complaining about Midland Mainline's issues - but I haven't seen one which actually says what it is that's wrong/what needs improved.

And, for all the complaining about how "bad" TSW3's route releases have been - nobody's offering any ideas on how to fix it. Why? Well, in my opinion, it's just wanting to cause a fuss for the sake of it.

However, that's enough from me on that. This thread was made to look at how important the length of a route really is - again, in the face of people on the forums criticizing routes and suggested routes for being 'too short'.

I now wait to see the (I hope) interesting discussion below, and again, thanks to all who have read this entire thing. Take care everyone. Cheers.

 

You say no one is offering fixes LOL. Why should we? We’re the paying customer, not the developer. At most we should be reporting issues & letting the devs know what we want to see for future content, not telling them how to fix their product.

Besides all that, we all know the issue is DTG is playing with a slider with dev time at one end and income at the other, TSW 3 has just been experimenting how far to the latter end they can push that slider.

I used to want longer routes (or at least longer than 30/40 miles), but it just seems like exceeding that mileage is a death warrant for quality & having a functioning product.

TSW has been around long enough for the routes to be in a place where they are built from a solid foundation, and not this seemingly ground up approach they’ve been taking with every single DLC.

 

Wow, that was a fantastic post you made trainsimplayer!

One thing that is quite important to me, is the addition of new rolling stock. I‘m tired of the dosto which have been in the game since about 5 years now, and the fact that there could have been new ones with Hamburg Lübeck doesn’t make it Better.

The recent routes (like BRO) have been a step in the right direction imo.
But there is still a lot of rolling stock missing in the game, which could be brought in via Loco add ons (the Acela was another step in the right direction). We‘ll see if Focus entertainment will help with it, or what the next routes will bring

 

You could pretty much vote for all those options.

I believe there is room for a diversity of route types. Yes, we need longer routes like Euston to Birmingham, Perth to Inverness or the West Highland Line(s). But there is also much to enjoy with shorter network style routes. Metropolitan/Circle Line comes up frequently, BCC should really have been a West Midlands network. We need some tram style routes, etc.

 

When it comes to routes have a decent length combined with sheer variety, I'd say SEHS and DRA are the best routes currently in TSW. Both have a good mix of services, passenger or freight. On the topic of extensions, I'd say DRA is the best suited option with one to Leipzig in a similar vein to it's TSC counterpart. This would add LZB and high speed (over 160km/h) gameplay, making DRA the German route that has everything. Throw an ICE-T into the mix and you've got a winner!

A network type route would also be great though I don't know how large one would be in TSW. I'd love Weardale & Teesdale in TSW but I feel that would be way too big. The route is really diverse and worked in both Steam and Diesel eras, so multiple timetables set in different eras would be a viable option for TSW.

 

For me a great route has a good timetable, a variety of stock and intercity services where you feel like you have travelled somewhere rather than stop, start, stop again services. For example, if MML had gone to Nottingham and Sheffield rather than Derby and had a busier timetable that would be a great route for me but the intercity services now still feel like I am not covering many miles (which I am not).

 

What is most important to me is having more routes that feel 'complete', i.e. with a comprehensive timetable, including the most common rolling stock and running between sensible endpoints. Now the collection is becoming more diverse, we can start to see more layering between routes and existing routes (at least those released after TSW3 and the Rush Hour routes) updated whenever new stock can be layered back on. We are already seeing this with the Acela on the NEC routes and HSTs on SEHS.

I don't think we're quite at the point of getting WCML South anytime soon (happy to be proved wrong!) but now other more ambitious routes like ECML South might be feasible. Other routes I frequently mention like Edinburgh to Dundee or WCML Trent Valley would also be useful for layering and are quite sizeable routes themselves.

BCC was a good choice to get another modern UK OHLE commuter route in-game shortly after the release of TSW3. Before that we only had Cathcart Circle in that category. My hope going forward is that Peak Forest will release alongside improvements to SOS, and that the upcoming Class 700 opens the door to a ECML South route and a BML upgrade. We also have routes from ATS and JT to look forward to, and possibly more UK content from Skyhook and Rivet as well.

 

I mean more about how to make the game good, not fixing little bugs. If there's an unintentional issue, then flagging it is exactly the appropriate response.

But there are people who just say the game is LOVE and don't offer any suggestions on how to fix that feeling they have about the game or it's DLCs. As I said, constructive criticism and good discussion are a lot rarer here now compared to this time last year or in 2021.

For example: if someone says the game is bad because it doesn't give you enough customisation.

What could be done to fix that?

Again, I don't mean fixing errors by what I say.

 

Add an Consist designer ?

 

Route length is the lowest priority for me, some of the best routes are the shorter ones with a good variety of services with things to keep you busy on the services. A 60min around100 mile high speed green light run with one intermediate station is a borefest imo.

 

Frankfurt hbf, low FPS in TSC.
It will crash in TSW3.
Since I play TSC, I don't play TSW, because TSC is more smooth.

 

Route length... hmm... depends on how you look at it. West Somerset Railway really is long enough for the type of services it offers. However, Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr is pretty short for the intercity services the DB BR101 offers. And having some short routes is definately a good thing. Whenever I find myself with a bit of time to play, I often turn to Isle of Wight because I know it has short services. Problem is there's much less choice for whenever I'm in the mood to do one long service, especially if I'm not really in the mood to do a US freight service.

What makes a route good? I guess the biggest plusside for me is when a route adds variety. Now, I don't mean branches, I personally rather have a single long route instead of a network of smaller routes, as networks simply don't offer long services. (Yes, give me a simple A-to-B-route). I'm not a fan of one trick ponies, wether that's a high speed route like Marseille-Avignon, or a commuter network like Cathcart (and don't get me wrong, both these routes do their one trick pretty well and I can occassionally enjoy a run on those routes). Ideally, a route offers a multitude of different services, like a Köln-Aachen offers high speed, regional trains, S-bahn trains and freight trains. That mix also adds to the amount of traffic on the route, and often utilizes locos already in our collection. I also quite like NY-Trenton, which seems an unpopular opinion, but it has a mix of intercity and local trains, and although the intercity services are on a short side, it's a step in the right direction when compared to other routes which offer intercity traffic. (And IMO, the main thing TSW really lacks at the moment, is some decent length intercity services).

So I guess the main things that make a route good for me are;
- Duration of services, also offering long services
- Variety; offering different types of services and a decent selection of locos
- Scenery; something unique like Arosa, and not tunnels like Bakerloo

 

Good post OP, really enjoyed the breakdown. I picked the route quality option as, for me, visual appeal is usually what keeps me coming back to a specific DLC. Quality of the power and rolling stock is right up there too. Enjoyable activity (and variety) is also a key element for me.

Length of trackage matters somewhat, and my pipe dream would be able to run a service, say from London, all the way north into Scotland and back, with all the DLC joining up lol. Anyway, for that I default to a different railway simulator altogether.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

OT, but I would say it's really generous to say TSC is smoother.

 

Well, that's for the people actually making the complaint to ask for, not me.
For all anyone know they could want the ability to put their own seat moquettes in trains or something.

 

For me, a route is something that I enjoy doing and with some recognisable trains in it as well, route length doesn't mind me as long as I enjoy it, it's all that counts IMO

 

The micro-stutters that occur even when settings are low, that's what I most dislike about TSW3.
As for route length, it doesn't matter for me so long as it's a realistic driving turn. So in the UK that's Bakerloo Line, Isle of Wight, Birmingham cross-city, Brighton to London, Brighton to Eastbourne. It's the reason I haven't bought the MML route, driving an HST for 25 mins doesn't interest me, likewise Great Western, you drive an HST for a couple of hours not just between 2 stations.

So my hope is that we see a "statement" main line DLC in TSW3, Something that pushes the game to the next level with 2 or 3 new types of traction and can also add some layers to other DLC Something in the big TSW black hole in the Eastern Counties....
London to Norwich or London to York. London to Leicester/Nottingham even. I think we also need a long picturesque UK route, Leeds to Carlisle over Settle maybe. Edinburgh to York anyone?

 

I don't think route length matters if the route is fulfilling. Network routes are my absolute favourite and complete routes, so routes like CCL and BCC.

However I do think it would be nice to see some longer routes so we can drive some of the express trains in the sim and ones not yet developed over longer distances. For example we have two routes for the HST neither journey being more than 30 minutes.

I would also like to see an end to nonsense routes where both end points are in places where no service terminates, even local trains.

 

Well I go for quality which also means that it have to run smootly. Things I get annoyed by are stutters, major bugs and rushed routes. Sometimes I'll see things like catenary which sticks through objects, floating bilboards or tracks. In my opinion these are simple things which could easily been polished when they took a little more time for the route building. So overal route quality it is for me. Examples for good quality routes which I have in my collection are Nahvekehr Dresden and Tharanter Rampe. I play these most frequently.

 

A decent, busy and realistic timetable is the sole deciding factor for any good route which provides long-term replayability and lots of variety (not just the types of services like passenger vs freight etc, but a plethora of different service duration like 5-minute vs 1-hour passenger services). Also, the route must be of a good length and preferably with some route variety such as branches etc. Finally, a route must not have any large, empty stations! One final thing, I also like routes which feel part of a larger network - London Commuter and ECW are great examples of such with Brighton as well as many of the modern German routes.

I highly disagree. I'd say many empty stations for some UK TSW routes are due to their decisions. Cross City is a great example, why on Earth would they choose to have a brand-new route featuring New Street - the UK's busiest station outside of London! - and think it's fine to have just one loco and a lack of AI traffic at the station? Elsewhere, while third-party, Edinburgh Waverley from E-G is another good example, why choose such a big station when there's no other suitable locos apart from the 385, it completely ruins the immersion; I'd much preferred to have seen Glasgow Central appear again, so at least there would of been lots of 314 AI traffic as a minimum.

Personally, I think DTG have been slightly weary of the feedback about too many London/Southern region routes, which is understandable, and I think they wanted to include more routes from elsewhere which is great. However, in doing such, they choose to have some of the most busiest routes/stations in TSW straight away for the sake of just including without adequate rolling stock, thus meaning emptier, duller timetables and lack of AI traffic at larger stations. Basically, while Cross City and E-G are great route choices in theory, they came way too early to TSW - I always argue that if DTG want a new route, please don't include the busiest of routes/stations first when lacking suitable rolling stock etc but instead have a few quieter routes with a couple different locos before having the likes of New Street or Waverley etc. The reason why the likes of London Commuter is so great is because ECW (with the 377, 66 and 313), GWE (166, HST, 66) and SEHS (375 and 465) came before - imagine what London Commuter, with the likes of Victoria and Brighton etc, would have been like without any of these routes before.

When it comes to the concept stage for choosing new routes, DTG and third-parties need to think about those which:
- Firstly, have trains which already operate many services instead of waiting for more DLC to fill out a timetable.
- Secondly, choose routes which will form part of larger networks instead of random, standalone routes with emptier timetables.
- Finally, choose routes which can use more existing rolling stock for better timetables.

 

Can you name a 40 mile UK route with one or two types of traction or that doesn't encompass a fairly large station or cross a busy mainline?
They'd need a few DLC to build up the asset stock to populate somewhere like Birmingham, or even Cardiff, Peterborough or Lincoln (Random medium busy stations)

 

But that's exactly the point I was arguing. If DTG want to have a new route with large stations, that's fine, but not until at least there are a few different different types of suitable rolling stock in TSW already instead of being just completely empty. Peterborough is a good example of such a station which could now be busy in TSW thanks to the 700, 387, 66, EMT 158s etc.

 

We don't have the 700, the 387 is in the wrong spec, the 66 has been done to death, the 158 only came out last week (so unlikely to be on other timetables)

So even if they did this as the next route we'd need to have the correct 700s which from what DTG have said we're not getting

 

Length of route isn't important for me personally. Its diversity of services and what you can do on the route. High speed set a control and go just doesn't appeal to me personally. Part of the reason I love the 101 and steam traction. Just gives me more to do!

 

One of the reasons I would love to see something like the Wherry Lines (plus Sheringham and Ipswich to Lowestoft) in classic diesel days. What a network that would be!

 

I know we need more classic diesel stuff desperately. Can't imagine how it doesn't seem to sell so highly with NTP and TVL being quite high on many peoples lists. Both fantastic routes!

 

Oh I would do anything for some more classic diesels in the game as we haven't seen a route with them in what seems and eternity.

 

My answer to what makes a good route from the poll options, is a good mix of all the options and other options to give it a new and varied take over others

long route is great, but no traffic and it dulls down.

Many trains but only several miles of track just makes you want more place to go.

lots of branches but only short lines makes you want a bigger/longer run

1 one long run and you start looking for a different experience.

 

People rave about BCC but, outstanding bugs and scenery issues aside, I had a go on the TSC version a couple of days ago and by the time I got to New Street was bored senseless. Now if that was part of a bigger West Mids network as I said, or a route where you get a variety of stopping, semi fast and express services (say Coventry to Wolverhampton) it would be far better. But go/stop hardly even getting up to line speed with no variety soon loses its appeal.

 

Well if the route code for Just Trains first tsw route is correct we will be getting a new classic diesel route later this year.

 

Length isn't everything, variety is worth so much more. For example Rhein-Ruhr Osten has the line splitting on the way to Hagen with the different traction taking different routes.
Sehs, Dresden - Riesa, London - Brighton and RRO are my favorite routes for this reason. Other routes get my time if they have a great train, or super scenery, but variety of fast/slow/branch lines and corresponding services makes a route come alive. As long as the timetable is right!

 

Yes I am very much looking forward to that route already!

 

For me, I want something that runs well on my Xbox one, has a service length of about 45-60 mins, depends on route length and has a good variety of services. For me, routes like Cathcart Circle are excellent as they provide several different service options, has an alright selection of layers- freight and railtour- and has an good performance, stays at around 30 FPS.

 

The trouble is without routes like BCC and E-G, future routes in these regions would encounter the same problem - the lack of stock variety and layering potential. Having these routes (and stations) in-game already allows future routes to be more immersive. If we were to only get routes featuring existing stock to maximise a timetable we'll be mostly stuck in the southern region for the foreseeable future.

Don't forget that older routes like ECW, GWE and the original SEHS were not particularly diverse routes, but they subsequently provided layers for future routes in the same region (allowing BML to be so good). My hope is that routes like BCC and E-G will do the same for areas outside the south-east, with potential future routes like WCML Trent Valley and Edinburgh to Dundee providing new stock whilst layering in existing stock, and in return populating both routes with more traffic.

It's also quite difficult to pick a quieter route in the UK that only sees a handful of train types without it being too uninteresting. Like ARuscoe said, most of the more popular UK routes don't stray far from intersecting another line that uses different train types or with a different operator, so at some point you're going to have to make a compromise and leave those services out until they might be layered back on with a future DLC.

 

I agree with what AirbourneAlex says here - stations like Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Central and Queen Street, Birmingham New Street - you name it - all have to come at some point. They're all major regional hubs, so loads of lines come in and out of them, so, the model and the infrastructure is already there - in comes another route involving said station with a new train(s), and then it's suddenly quite a lot better.

On the other hand, if you totally avoid it - then whenever you do choose to start, it'll be lacking it's most important stock. For example, if Edinburgh Waverley came with a Fife Circle route (with the 170 the new train, and the HST coming in from, let's say Highland Mainline, and an 800/801 from ECML South) - it then lacks its core traction - the 158, 385, 380, etc. Okay, that was a bad example, but anyway...

Same for Birmingham. We now have a 323 which, otherwise, wouldn't be there. And apart from that one location, the route is quite well populated. We could have waited longer until we had a 350 or a 390 or whatnot, but what's the point in that? That's just setting restrictions on ourselves for nothing.

Nobody likes a dead station in TSW, but it's better to get it there with at least one type of traction and build on it over time, rather than just wait and hope it naturally builds up. For Birmingham, a 170, 172, or 196 could really add to it - providing plenty of AI around New Street, and some more-than-welcome semi-fast services along the southern half of the route - to give something new, rather than just commuter every single time.

 

I don't think it'll be long before New Street has another class. I can see Turbostars, 350s and 390s in-game in the next few years. The relatively simple addition of another unit in the meantime, say the 730 (as it'll be a common sight in the West Midlands), would introduce a nice mix in a transitional era timetable and a bit more colour and life at New Street.

 

I think all of this comes back to a point of getting more traction options into the game, and there are a few trains which would pad out a lot of options, one of which is the 158 (oft seen at Birmingham from the 90s onwards), add in a proper 150, 170 and a few other sprinter classes and you have a core network outside of London.
The question is at what point do we get a bigger MU like a 222, 221, 390 etc which is a much bigger job to make than a 2 or 3 car job?

 

Wow, what a detailed post!

I can definitely say that from my point of view, there needs to be a good mix of all the criteria you mentioned above.
A short route length ultimately doesn’t matter if the scenery is amazing and the services are cool (see Niddertalbahn). A long route can get boring really quickly if every service is the same, even if a completely new train comes with it (see Kassel-Würzburg). Even if no new rolling stock comes with the route, it can still be cool (see London-Brighton).

 

I personally enjoy longer routes, but as it’s been stated, long routes with no traffic are bad so IMO, what should be done is a balance, BML got this right in the sense that there are branches, loads of variety and a decent enough distance. I’m more of a 1-2 hour fan so anything in the 100-200 mile distance is good enough for me but there has to be some form of variety

 

Me the four options I voted since I am in favour of Immersion style gameplay. When I started playing Wunderline Bremen Oldenburg Bad Nieuwschans Groningen the Pressnitztalbahn Baureihe 155 is broken due to how it's Front Pantographs being used as both while the Red version has it fixed. So far it beats RSN 155

 

For someone who only has interest in NA freight routes, the only one that I really enjoy is Clinchfield Railroad. For whatever reason, every modern freight route that has been released, I just cant find any long term enjoyment out of the routes, at all.

Clinchfield is unique as it has multiple branch lines to coal mines coming off the mainline so the bulk of its timetable isn't just mainline freight (Helps that the CRR didn't run many run thru freights on the line represented), it is also a single track mainline (Though the game routes the player incorrectly thru the passing sidings if no train is oncoming). Paired up with the fact that the era it was set in the CRR had older F7's running with SD40's gives its power a nice mix without breaking realism (Unlike the ATSF F7 on Cajon). It would of been the perfect US freight route with a few fixes on the route itself (Such as the lack of banking comm etc.), plus the inclusion of a GP7 DLC, some more era appropriate freight cars for the manifests, and maybe some extra paint schemes for the boxcars and the F7 & SD40, and it would of been damn near perfect route.

Every modern US route just doesn't fit the bill for me, weather its the stock, route, services, or other things, I just cant enjoy other routes as much as the CRR.

I'm also a stickler for realism, and can pick harder on modern stuff as its something I can still railfan everyday.

 

Longer routes don't make better gameplay.The longest route in TSW is the most boring route I have played.

 

And routes like Niddertalbahn are fantastic, as long as they are not rushed garbage

 

Tbf, the only route which is really comparable to Niddertalbahn is West Somerset Railway - which dates back to TSW2020 and is a solid DLC; just incredibly slow paced.

 

Almost on cue, the Glossop Line has been announced in today's roadmap.
For those who are unaware, the Glossop Line runs for about 14 Miles from Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop & Hadfield.

This is Dovetail Games' shortest route for the game, ever, excluding the Bakerloo Line. In terms of what is considered "Mainline Railway", this is the shortest.

Bakerloo (I think) is slightly shorter, and the Rivet Island Line DLCs are about 6 miles shorter.

Now, complaints rapidly and rashly flew in the air saying it was far too short (and quickly blasting it as "not worth it at all for £30", only to somewhat comically be told it would be £20, which shut many up.)

That being said, it's a worthy debate to have again, with a route like this now on the way.
I, personally, think it's good. Services take about 40 minutes and the 323 is a good train to drive.

Sidenote: I'm going to update the list of Routes whenever a new DLC is announced/released. The Averages won't be changed.

 

Whilst the size queens will have their gripes, surely this will fulfill the wishes of those who want complete runs, and to reuse the (fairly decent) class 323 AND bring in another TOC in Northern AND not be a 3rd rail London Centric route.

There's also the reverse at Hadfield and Glossop, a few skip stations (not sure Fairfield and Gorton are going to see much use) but could also form a local network with other lines
There's also a few freight paths on the route per day so who knows?

 

Slap me on full length madrid to barcelona or any 200km+ high speed route i would never get bored

 

Given that even DTG agreed it wasnt £30.00 and the lack of communication about pricing from the offset, those (including me) saying they didnt think it was worth £30.00 were right.

 

If that's all that was said it would be fine. People starting down the "DTG are being money grabbing again" and "What are they thinking" paths are the ones who were not quite accurate (putting it mildly)

 

Hold on to your wallet for the time being, buy it when DTG is doing long-term business, and wait for their discount!