Arosa Is Now Playable!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by fabristunt, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Arosa has been fixed and is now playable!
    The train doesn't derail at almost every point, the cruise control actually keeps the speed it's supposed to, the train doesn't bounce back and forth anymore!
    I'm sure they fixed even more stuff, i'm looking forward to finding out!
    If only we had a chengelog...

    Wait, we do! But it's useless, why? Is the changelog simplified for performance reasons too?
     
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  2. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I saw that was one of the fixes from this update! That makes me really happy to hear we can finally complete a downhill service without constant worry of derailing and glad to know cruise control is fixed as well.
     
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  3. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    The changelog only says:
    Arosalinie:
    • Improved vehicle setup to limit derailments when traversing passing loops.
    • Improved various Russian translations.
     
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  4. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Good news, thanks. I'll be playing after work tonight then :)
     
  5. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    FYI, the timetable timing is still wonky. :)
     
  6. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    Might be a bit more playable but it is far from fixed. The timetable compared to the real life timetable is completely wrong making it impossible to run to time. The accelerator still fails to re-engage whilst moving after using the brakes.
     
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  7. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have tested it and now you can go down to 80 km/h without derailing. You can also go from 80 km/h to 30 km/h with dynamic braking in a matter of seconds on a 6% descent without any problem. And you can also descend from Arosa to Chur without touching the vacuum brakes once. Well done Rivet, thanks for turning a beautiful driving experience where you had to stay focused into a GTA. For me you have lost all confidence.
    I swear I would rather burn my money in a bonfire than buy anything you put on the market again.
     
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  8. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    Well I believe it was a few players that first argued that the vacuum brake was not necessary in the descend citing brake shoe consumption. I’m skeptical about that, since US freight trains apply air brake during descends, but I don’t know the outcome of that discussion.
    And even with the additional brake power, you still need to focus on the downhill run.
     
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  9. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I thought the Arosa line was playable before the fix, no problem with derailments when taking the slips at a reasonable speed, regenerative brakes worked as expected, you could use them by themselves or in combination with the vacuum. Time tables a bit tight, but other than that enjoyed the route as released... I hope the improvements are indeed improvements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  10. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I think that’s an irrelevant comparison. A 6% grade is very very steep. To put it in perspective, the steepest grade in the U.S. is 4.9% and Sand Patch Grade only maxes out at 2%. Also, while U.S. freight trains may apply air brakes during decent, the dynamic brake is still the preferred method of slowing down on descents just like it is on Arosa.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I am one of those you cite, but I never said anything of the sort. I said, and maintain, that dynamics are your primary system, but when they can't hold speed alone than periodic (not continuous!) application of air brakes is necessary.

    (Incidentally, while 6% is very steep indeed, the Ge 4/4 and its four carriages are a toy train by US freight standards, where consists a mile and a half long weighing upwards of 15,000 tons are common. That much weight requires a HELL of a lot of braking power.)
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It was like :|:|:(:(:|:(:o:mad::mad::mad::(:mad:

    It needed to be ;);):|:(:|:(:|:|;):|;);)

    They’ve changed it to :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::D:D

    Overcompensation springs to mind. Or the most simple fix to achieve, take all the physics out.
     
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  13. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    I'm not against your idea, but I probably didn't express my idea correctly at first.
    I know that the dynamic brake is the primary option, and carries out more energy even for US freight trains. However, Since the Arosa trains are so light, I wouldn't be too surprised even if they applied continuous airbrake during descend. Therefore, I'm open to both possibilities, until someone finds an actual Rhb driver and ask about this, which might or might not happened in previous forum posts regarding the brakes.
     
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  14. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    The Swiss Drivers manual says you should be able to drive on just dynamic with using the air or vacuum brake (depending on the train) to come to full stop or to apply quick braking before curves.

    With 4000hp and a 130t train I would expect it just about come to a standstill on 100% dynamics :).

    There is nothing to stop you driving it with a mix of dynamics and vacuum brakes for your train controlling pleasure, you just won't end up off the edge of the mountain if you stuff it up where before an hour into a run you would with the slightest mistake.

    I much prefer it this way.
     
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  15. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    It's great to see Rivet addressing the most pressing issues of the route!
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If they have fudged it from over done physics to arcade physics then I will still give it a miss, at full price anyway and continue to enjoy the classic TS version. I’m guessing the distant scenery hasn’t been addressed.
     
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  17. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I just live streamed a run down from Arosa to Chur and the physics are still great, now they're like a real train on real tracks. You still get pushed around by the carriages and you can still drive with both dynamic and touches of the vacuum brake. I really enjoyed the run. It is true that you can set the control wheel on 3.3 and it just cruises down the hill at the limit, but you can conversely drive it properly as the Swiss Drivers Manual tells you to do which is to run on dynamics and work with the vacuum brake to give you extra stopping oomph on corners and at points and stations. It is now totally enjoyable without the freckle clenching moments of worrying if you'll fail the shiny side up rule at any second. The choice is yours, set the wheel at 3.3 and drive arcade style or do it properly with constantly manipulating both the dynamics and vacuum brake controls. Your hands will stay busy for the entire trip OldVern and no the distant scenery isn't touched but you really only notice it watching someone else drive, when you're driving you're too busy to look up that far!

    Well done Jasper_Rivet for a top notch patch. There seem to be a bunch of other tweaks too like the cab general sound reduced so now you can hear handles and switches click which is nice. The locomotive cab is now the right way around (at least on the trip I just did) so the right pantograph is up and the signals behave as they should. I'm going to go and drive some of the others now to see the rest of the extent of the patch.

    If you've been sitting on the fence get out there and grab it. Such a fun drive although I do wish it had Raildriver support. Maybe the next patch for that please Jasper - don't forget us :).

    EDIT: I don't know where I got the idea the speed control worked down hill because after others mentioned it does not I tried it again and agree it does not. So you have to drive it properly - no arcade mode :). Sorry for being misleading.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  18. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    There is a deliberate 10 second delay according to the Swiss Drivers Manual - is that what you're experiencing?
     
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  19. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Active Member

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    In my experience, the accelerator re-engages 100% of the time - but it is after that delay. Glad to see the manual says that is normal.
     
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  20. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Wait for what? The speed selector now holds the train going downhill??? That to me seems a bit weird, but I would definitely need confirmation from someone, who knows the loco. Swiss locos might be a comfy workplace if that's the case. :D
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the Turbo/Sprinter DMU's in classic TS20xx, engage the throttle going downhill and the train slows down!
     
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  22. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    Didn't hold it for me.
     
  23. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't do that and it should not. At least on PC it works as intended. No idea where paul got the idea from.
     
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  24. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    This thread just goes to show that whatever they do, they can’t win. Damned if they do. Damned if they don’t.
     
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Why would that be odd? I don't know about the Ge 4/4 specifically, but any German train with AFB does that
     
  26. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, it isn't an AFB, it's an AF without a B. It is not intended to apply the brakes automatically. You will still have to brake manually. Acually, to turn the dynamic brakes on, you have to move the wheel to the left, so it won't be in 3.3 position all the way downhill.
     
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  27. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Well, not really. They haven't done what people have asked.

    The complaints were in relation to the dynamics causing the train to derail. I have not seen a single post that says "dynamics should be more powerful than an anchor"
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    4000hp on a 150-ton train? They SHOULD be more powerful than an anchor!
     
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  29. bsrdj

    bsrdj Member

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    rivet turn on raildriver with the next update?
     
  30. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    I think it’s about 2000hp but that’s still about the same weight-power ratio of a single EMD E unit.
     
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  31. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    Very smooth now, no derailments. Yeah. 70 % dynamic brake can hold the speed 30 km/h
    100 % dynamic brake can brake the train to 15 km/h (6% slope) to stop the train, you must use train brake.
    Dynamic brake is gets worse at lower speeds.
    So I feel it should should be close to the realistic trains

    Tested on Arosa northbound
     
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  32. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    No they did not. Hopefully in their next one, this update solved the immediate playability issues only.
     
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  33. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Actually neither do I. I thought it did but I revisited this and it does not. You are correct.

    Paul
     
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  34. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It is much easier driving now, but it removes the challenge for me and I still have now idea what a realistic driving style would require.
     
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  35. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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  37. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    According to a post on the rivet forums Raildriver and a few other things are on the way. Not sure when it’s coming. Twitter says it’s released, Forum says coming soon.

    0A5B5FCA-BED7-4BAB-BBB1-07B18F94D0A1.jpeg
     
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  38. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    Nah, that'll buff out. ;) The injury to one unfortunate worker was described as 'slight'.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If you say so
     
  40. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That's good news.
     
  41. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just to add some science to the fiction :)

    The physics before were found to have a number of major issues - two big ones were that the coaches weighed approximately 4 times more than they should, each. This is why the dynamic brake had a huge problem with the train and why physics were a bit extreme compared to reality.

    Second major issue was found with the couplings which were implemented slightly incorrectly and meant that - if you can imagine it visually... the physics were twisted 180 degrees and when you put the loco or dynamic brakes on, with your 4 times too heavy train and put it on a curve, the direction of the physics just went to strange places and in some places (usually the tighter curves on junctions) this meant the train derailed because it was being pulled in unnatural directions.

    Rivet have fixed those plus a few other issues that were identified and it is now much more like the real thing - you should be descending by managing speed on your dynamics, air brakes are NOT intended for prolonged use because they become less effective as they heat up, plus they need replacing much more regularly. As you then come into a station, or need to make bigger adjustments to your speed, that's where you bring in the air brakes.

    Trains do not, in reality, run right on the limit of "if you do one thing wrong, we're off the tracks" (for the most part, anyway).

    I for one thank Rivet for the update, and certainly for me this has allowed me to enjoy the driving experience significantly more.

    Hope that's useful.

    Matt.
     
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  42. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    Its running very good now. very playable. Thanks Rivet and Dovetail

    thought I having sound problem but it was my settings in windows.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  43. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting this. It was clear something was wrong and I’m happy it is now fixed. Driving it is now a joy and the route is a great addition to my collection.

    I did originally think that the fixes may have gone too far because the difference is huge after the fix, I obviously don’t know how the train behaves in real life, just how trains generally behave. It just shows how broken it was if it is now correct in that now it is so smooth.

    Do you think it would be a good idea in the future for Rivet not to spin a yarn about how to drive it in its broken state as if it is how it’s actually done, like in their braking tutorial and what their community manager says on streams and in forum posts, and instead just acknowledge that their model is broken and aim to fix it? It just doesn’t look good when Jasper is trying to cover things up by saying things that we know are just nonsense. It’s probably not his fault as he is put on the spot but he is the one having to say these things on the company’s behalf.

    As you have now posted what was actually wrong it just shows them up. It’s very unfortunate, as they have made a good route, their second good route too. This issue could have been sorted before release too, we never should have seen the train in that state.

    Anyway, I’m very happy it’s all sorted now.
     
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  44. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification Matt.
    I cannot understand why Rivet insisted on their lies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  45. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree. Also the constant being surprised by bugs in the streams (such as the timetable missing times on IoW) wears thin when they're so obvious that the first hour of testing should have identified them...
     
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  46. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    Don't want to start anything here, but comparing these two responses made me chuckle:
    ...and then we have Jasper's clarification on Rivet Games forums:

    "With Arosa, it became clear that it was a little too punishing with derailments if the brakes weren't used in the way they are in real life. We've since updated the physics of the train to make it more forgiving, and that fix was just released on all platforms. So the derailments are now history!" (Source: https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...-line-chur-arosa-available-now/page6#post4348)

    So now I'm wondering if Rivet just don't want to admit making a mistake or have we got this braking debacle totally wrong in the first place? ;) Anyway, I'm enjoying driving Arosa much more now and I believe the braking mechanics are more akin to real life than were before.
    Cheers!
     
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  47. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the insight, it's fun to hear what exactly was wrong in details. And glad they got fixed, that's definitely great news!

    Have to agree with the others though, why does Rivet keep making made-up reasons for things that are obviously bugs or other issues? It's not the first time they've done this. There is this braking issue, where they even tried to "cover up" the problem by making a tutorial with non-prototypical instructions and several times they mentioned it as it's not an actual bug. Then there was also the time table thing with Isle of Wight and such. And most people already don't trust their "performance issues" as the reason for the poor distant scenery on Arose.

    Just be honest and the community will most likely understand until you fix it.
     
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  48. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Rivet statement is hilarious :D
     
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  49. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully a learning experience for Rivet. Still going to be a sale purchase (July?) for me though, given they appear to be maintaining their stance re distant scenery.
     
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