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Arosa Line: Nice Concept, Weak Execution

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Jo_Kim, Mar 28, 2021.

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  1. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Since the Arosa Line (ARL) was released for Train Sim World 2 a few days ago the reception by the community was mixed. My first experience was rather positive but the longer I am playing this line, my thoughts turn more and more negative. To see if these thoughts are justified I've installed Train Simulator again and ran a service on the Arosa Line there.
    Well, my thoughts seem legit if I directly compare the TS and TSW version. I will not share my entire thoughts about the TSW version here, but Rivet should really consider if they want to leave the scenery in this very poor state or if a rework is necessary.
    I've recorded the same run in TSW and TS. The TSW version was recorded first, the TS run is oriented on the TSW runs departure times. Take a look and decide for yourself what version of this line you prefer.

    TSW


    TS
     
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  2. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    IMO the TS classic version is superior....the scenery whilst not spectacular in TS (which is expected), it is more consistent across the board whereas the TSW2 version is glaringly uneven (ie great close scenery and atrocious distant). The audio of the TS classic version is also better
     
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  3. peterchambers

    peterchambers Member

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    I am feeling the same as the two previous posters. I am a Swiss route fan. After playing the TSW2 version I went back onto the TS one and was surprised at how good it remains. I was struck by its charm. Hard to describe really. I also run all of the Rhb enhancement packs on it and have much greater variety of acitivity. I think at the moment I regard the two versions as speparate routes each with their own advantages.
     
  4. marcospennati2004

    marcospennati2004 New Member

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    agree with you, Rivet should have made the scenery more consistent. if the scenery was consistent, it would have turned out to be a better product.
     
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  5. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Well, I don't have the TS version.
    I looked at your videos, at times TS seems more detailed but the overall look of TSW2 is visually better.
    The colors on TS are very heavily washed out.

    The sounds of the train don't sound that extraordinary in either one.
    For the moment I prefer the distant landscape of TSW2, all the same you have to be honest at one point.

    Finally, I still find and I am really honest, TS more cohesive overall.
    Funny, but yes ts looks better "finished".
    In fact, it is not that the TSW2 version is less good but yes, it lacks finishes, there is more detail on TS, the fact of seeing snow on the summits on the TS version already shows that it is better detailed !!

    Hmmm I'm mixed but since I didn't have the ts version I'm still very happy.
    Let's say that if TSW2 had the same finishes as TS it would definitely be better.
     
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  6. peterchambers

    peterchambers Member

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    Washed out colours on most routes in TS can be cured with Railworks Enhancer Pro. I can make my routes look too vibrant if I chose !
     
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  7. roggek

    roggek Member

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    i know something that TSW version handles better than the TS version: To keep a train standstill in a incline!
    So i rather prefer the TSW version.
    I don't know how many times i have a slow rollback at Haspelgrübe and a SPAD in TS version. And that is more important to me than the scenery itself.
     
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  8. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Active Member

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    TS version is far more detailed, even on the streets of Chur. Scenery and texture is miles better in TS. Also why no one is saying anything about the awful running sounds on the coaches. They sound like freight cars with flat spot on each wheel. Or running on the worst jointed track in the world. It reminds me of this video.

    Sound similar doesn't it ?
     
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  9. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Great video.
    Sick turbulence.
     
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  10. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    Prefer TSW2 as it has better scenery and interactivity
     
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  11. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    The TS Version looks like MSTS
     
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  12. iakoo

    iakoo New Member

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    I prefer the TSW2 version. But yeah they could have worked on the scenery much more.
     
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  13. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It is not all that bad. I did an early morning drive and in that light the far mountains near Arosa looked realistic to me. I think it is not so good on sunny very clear days.
     
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  14. iakoo

    iakoo New Member

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    Yeah it is still decent.
     
  15. solon

    solon Active Member

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    When a big update or version 2 ?
     
  16. Rutger Luiten

    Rutger Luiten Member

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    TSW and TS21 have a completely different game engines. The bottleneck of TSW is that it uses Simulink.

    Simulink is not something for game consoles. I have used Simulink for school and it takes alot of your computer (CPU power). Simulink is used for complex calculations and it makes the calculation visible.

    The problem is that in TSW you have to give up the visible part, like draw distance. Maybe I am completely wrong, but this is what I think is causing the limit draw distance in TSW.
     
  17. solon

    solon Active Member

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    I play TSW2 on PC, and other games on PS4 pro. I have games on PS4 much more beautiful than the last Arosa line: Death Stranding, RDR2, TLOU2 etc.

    The problem has nothing to do with TSW being cross-platform. The DLC is not finished. It is not polished, nor optimized. There are development tips to beautify a scene and avoid having ugly sets as is the case in this DLC. For me it's an early access not a release. We are in Switzerland and with the driving of the mountain train, the appeal of this scene should be the landscapes.
     
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  18. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    I think on Steam it's the only route for TSW2 which has more negative reviews than positive ...
     
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  19. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I feel the bad rap on this line is not deserved. Haven’t had a derailment an the route, downhill can use just the regenerative brakes alone, as well as using mixed brakes again without derailing. The distance scenery does not make me want to claw my eyes out and some would have you think. Could it be better - sure, line side scenery is pretty good and since I like the driving experience over being a tourist, it is a good addition to my collection.

    as an aside, was watching the Clinchfield stream and noticed several distance mountains tops being devoid of trees and all green, which didn’t curb my enthusiasm for that route either.
     
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  20. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Well, the dynamic brakes seem too weak and the derailment problem can really ruin a downhill run.
    The best runs I had on ARL were in snowstorms because I couldn't see the distant scenery. It doesn't need to be very good but even the train simulator version had better distant scenery. In the TSW version, you have low-polygon mountains and trees that were placed without any thought behind them. In the real world, you can find a tree line. I don't know if the TS version had it in the right place, but at least it had one. In TSW you can find trees near the summit of over 2500m high mountains. Also, the mountains seem to be covered in grass all over. Not that much of a deal but it doesn't make the current impression better. They haven't even tried to make it look a bit like this.
    For me, the distant scenery is an immersion breaker. For a route that is famous for its scenery this is more than unfortunate. This could have been avoided with a little more work and attention to detail, even without impacting the performance of the consoles, which I assume is the major factor here.
     
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  21. janousekm03

    janousekm03 New Member

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    Exactly my words! For me it was this factor that made me refund the route. I just couldn‘t listen to the atrocious sound of pulling a pile of scrap metal. What a shame.
     
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  22. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Haven’t bought it because of the scenery :(
    Not worried by the sounds, the accuracy of the cab details or the real world brake performance as I’ve never driven one.
    ( Or want to. Hurtling down a Swiss mountain with no experience...)
     
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  23. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    the route its self is fun to play honestly, but there is no hiding the fact that visually this falls well short. Any cab ride of this route will show just how little detail is even in track side scenery, honestly its bland overall and its a shame. There are options like photogrammetry that could have aided this route big time but again it comes down to if developers want to invest in such things I enjoy the route all in all but i defiantly don't get any enjoyment form the way the landscape looks, just run it down hill and you will spend the whole time looking at your brake gauges ... problem solved :P
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  24. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

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    Thanks for your constructive feedback, everyone. We'll be passing this onto the team at Rivet!
     
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  25. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    After spending about 7 hours on this route I think I can summarize a few remarks. Bottom line - it's a mixed bag of sweet and sour candy.

    First of all, the distant scenery that was so fussed about doesn't appear to be that big of a deal. There are places where it is just plain bad and then there are spots where it is actually pretty decent. Comparing this to the upcoming Clinchfield you can say it is subpar, but put against some older TSW routes, it is on a similar level of quality. Even so, it's very evident that this is where Rivet made the biggest sacrifice to keep a smooth gameplay.

    One of out-standing features of this route is it offers two different driving experiences. Going uphill to Arosa is a laid-back adventure, while going downhill to Chur is a careful management of dynamic and air braking, constantly forcing you to stay focused. You can hardly watch the scenery while going downhill and I found myself enjoying it more than I originally anticipated.

    Sounds is where I think (as always) this route falls flat. The loco sounds okay-ish, but what's going on with those coaches? At lower speeds it truly sounds like you're pulling shopping carts as was noted by others already. And the fact that there is literally zero ambient audio in certain places is just disappointing. Chur feels like a deserted place, and hiking about stations without any sound of maybe birds singing, slight wind blowing and tree canopies hustling is a true let-down for me. The overall sound presentation is lackluster and this is something I think Rivet could fix on this route.

    One other thing that stands out at the moment is all these little bugs creeping around (I'm aware some are already acknowledged by Rivet). AI locos drive with their panthographs lowered, manually using a wiper doesn't actually wipe the window, whistle acts funny sometimes and I have experienced a derail once when going uphill through a junction (being under the speed limit considerably). Apart from derailing nothing gamebreaking, but it does ruin the immersion.

    Scenarios are also quite diverse, with freight running being the highlight. I was pleasantly surprised by the difficulty of those and it's a shame the service mode doesn't include any freight running and shunting (at the moment at least).

    Would I recommend this? Depends. It certainly isn't a definitive yes to just anyone at the moment. If you enjoy narrow gauge, single track, passenger runs, alpine or rural landscapes or maybe more turisty feel railway operations then yes. Even with its shortcomings there is something that you will enjoy. I happen to fall under these categories, so I'm enjoying it. But others might do well to wait. Rivet were put to high expectations with this one and it seems they have yet to achieve them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  26. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve got to the point where I’m waiting for the patch. Hopefully that will fix the timetable issues and the braking issues. I hope that maybe it will also add raildriver support

    I know you can drive the train down the hill using the vacuum brake, but knowing it’s wrong, annoys me a bit. Plenty of other DLCs to play while I wait.

    I just want to be able to drive the train on time using the correct braking with my controller that is supported for every other TSW2 route(including Rivet’s other release)

    Not too bothered by the scenery. Most of it is fine and recognisable.
     
  27. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    As others have commented the sounds really are a disappointment, no bridge sounds (especially when running over steel construction ones) no reverb in tunnels, and those awful coach sounds! Just like the ones in TS but worse! I really hope DtG sort the sound immersion for TSW in general as it is a massive letdown for me. Not sure how hard it is to implement sounds in Unreal, but according to their information for UE4 it is possible and can be varied to increase immersion. E.g passing retaining walls buildings etc bridge parapets, trains are noisy and they reflect a lot of their sounds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  28. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    What's the deal with Rivet and not being able to make AI drive properly and windshield wipers?

    I mean Isle of Wight also had (and I heard it still has) issues with AI drivers driving without their headlights on and incorrect destination displays, and the Isle of Wight stock also has buggy windshield wipers. They look alright from the cab, but they don't actually follow the curvature of the windshield. So as they move, they just float in the air.

    Rivet seems like a nice group, but they need to take a bit more time in learning the small things in the TSW engine. Really hope the early "fails" don't discourage them and they improve in the future, and if so, I also hope they come back to these first routes and improve on them, just like DTG does with their old routes.
     
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  29. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t have the TS version but have watched a few videos of it. This is the first one I’ve watched with the same train as TSW has. I do have the TSW version. I haven’t read anyone’s replies to this thread yet so I can’t be swayed by anything they say.

    The TSW version is superior in my opinion. The train looks better, the route looks better overall, the train moves more convincingly. The sounds in the TS version are quite bad in parts. The inappropriate squealing round the corners is too loud and seriously irritating, while the sounds in the cab in the TSW version are generally better, although still not brilliant. They sound more like cab ride videos I’ve seen, that’s for sure. The TSW version has some dubious distant scenery (the TS scenery is nothing to write home about either) but everywhere else it shines above TS, in the way the trains look and move, the general lighting is better, and you don’t get the feeling you are in a cartoon route with TSW.

    I don’t know if I’m speaking against the grain here and I don’t know what’s been said in this thread, but people do tend to overstate how good TS is when comparing it with TSW. I think rose tinted glasses for TS and a super critical eye for TSW are at play a lot of the time. The things that are better with TS are not the graphics and not necessarily the sounds in most cases I’ve seen. Nothing else in the way routes or trains are generally built is better either. TS has an editor some more functionality and that’s what’s really better about it, not the look or apparent feel of it, but as I only played Trainz and not TS before TSW, I can only go off videos.

    Both versions of Arosa are good but TSW is definitely the better one for me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  30. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think the main reason people often say the Train Simulator versions look better, is because the general graphics and feel in the TS version are consistent. I mean the hills are also pretty empty and ugly in the TS version as well, but TS is built on the Rail Simulator engine from 2007, you expect and accept the dated graphics. And because the graphics quality is lower even on close scenery, the poor detail in distant hills are easily accepted as well.

    But when it comes to TSW, where the close trackside scenery and the rolling stock tends to be extremely detailed and beautiful, the empty distant hill, repeating grass textures and horrible shading and lighting on the ground generates a reallynoticeable contrast with the trackside scenery.

    And even despite this, the TS version often really have more feel to them. For example, from what I could see, the street running parts in the TS version seem to have better road markings and such, while in TSW mostly just a plain, really light asphalt texture.
     
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  31. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

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    Well that distance scenery looks bad, i checked the scenery with google maps and even the first distance hill in Chur suppose to looks like that:
    [​IMG]

    But what we have in game is like almost empty hill. So i tried to mess with that scenery, here is just too much trees:
    [​IMG]

    Sure it looks better then before, you can compare that with the hill behind. But there is to much trees, i did the scenery again with less trees. But main problem is that those trees are not visible from Chur station... they just pop up when the camera is closer. So i need to find solution for that and then maybe one day i can try update the scenery... there is a lot of stuff on google maps which can help.
    Here is the video showing the pop up problem:
     
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  32. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Is it how it looks originally, before the other trees pop in? But I have to say, it looks much better with more trees. They might be a bit too much though, but as a test, you did a great job, my man.

    Wish Rivet would go back to it and try to improve it as best as they can. This route could really use better scenery, as it could be awesome with it.
     
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  33. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    Great effort! That "reforested" hill looks exactly like I expected this route to be in the first place. Hopefully you can do something about it, it would be an enormous improvement.
     
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  34. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    I think you're confusing "Simugraph", which is DTG's proprietary train-physics modelling tool, with "Simulink", which is a MATLAB tool with a similar-looking "programming by joining the dots" interface.
     
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  35. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you will find the solution and time, but the result is very interesting. Thanks for this video.
     
  36. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    For me it's Train Sim 21 version because it's more detailed and Scenic unlike Rivet Games made Arosa Line for train sim world 2. Speaking of the TS21 developer it's Thompson interactive from the Arosa Line Manual for Train Sim 21. What Dovetail Games could have done was ask Thompson interactive to work on Arosa Line again for Train Sim World 2 method could have been avoided Rivet Games Arosa Line Problems. The next route they should do are both classic TS21 routes The Berina and Abula Lines provided Dovetail Games wants Thompson interactive back for Train Sim World 2. Both Berina and Abula Lines can provide layers on Arosa Line like the ABe 8/12 Allegra. For the Arosa Line ABe 8/12 Allegra layered from Both Berina and Abula lines they must be coupled to in Game Rhb Ge 4/4 II Coaches. Video by TrainJJ shows what the requested ABe 8/12 Allegra setup should be 7 car train
     
  37. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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    Thomson Interactive is the former name of Rivet Games. Alan Thomson created several content for TS.
     
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  38. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Nice try, but be careful. Above 2000 the tree density and size reduces quite fast and above 2200m you will not see any trees in this region. Arosa is at 1700m so for most of the mountains in this area, there should not be trees on the mountains. On the other hand, in June you still may see shown above 2000 m, especially at shady locations.
     
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  39. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for telling me about it but for Rivet Games they could have just simply did the same scenery as what they did on train Sim 21 that way they could have avoided the disaster on the route what it is right now since they already worked on it in the past.
     
  40. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Active Member

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    Fantastic effort trainsimcz - if you solve this, it will enhance the enjoyment of this route for many players.

    I wish you well in your investigation
     
  41. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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    ;)
    These are two different engines, so Rivet Games had to start from scratch.
    Personally, I'm very satisfied with the immediate proximity of the track: station, building, crossing, greenery, etc.; not to mention the Ge 4/4 II which is just wonderful. In the distance, what bothers me the most are the mountains near Chur that look like almost nothing.
    I hope a mod on PC to enrich the mountains because Rivet Games has already warned in a live that would not change anything on this side.
     
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  42. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    And i really hope the sounds of the coaches will be fixed. They are way too loud in the cab and they also sound weird in general. Hopefully they can rebalance it.
     
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  43. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I had been unsure whether to order Arosa now pay day has come after watching the streams and reading a few of these threads. I brought it today, and while there are some scenery concerns in the distant scenery - from my perspective if you are the kind of player who tends to sit in the cab - then it is well worth it... the gameplay is fantastic, and I'm very glad I brought it.
     
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  44. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think I'll also get it later on when it's on sale sometimes, because other than the weak scenery and the bit funky physics, it looks really good. I saw a few videos where others played it in cloudy weather and such, and well it looks much better than it did in broad daylight in the official streams.
     
  45. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    The ground textures in TSW have always been kak, especially distant terrain, worse than TS20xx imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
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  46. dudleybrooke

    dudleybrooke New Member

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    I think the problem here is that we are PC players, and the developers have to produce a route that will be playable on all consoles as well. I have a powerful PC and it barely breaks into sweat running TSW2 routes, whereas consoles are being stretched to the limit. DTG have stated they are trying to make the game more efficient mostly for the benefit of stretched consoles. Rock and a hard place is the saying that springs to mind. For me, I love the rendering in TSW 2, but prefer the gameplay and broad spread of routes and locomotives with TS classic. Oh, and steam of course.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021

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