Arosa Streaming First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by fabristunt, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    How would it not work if the Loco gets turned around before each service by the game?
     
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  2. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe how much attention is devoted to the inclinometer.
    Is the Hud even needed on this route?
    Man up and drive like a real engineer!

    That is, look out the window like they do in real life..
    Campaign for better scenery. and alphorn storage.
     
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  3. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I think we will see another stream of the route either before or on launch day. The best bet is probably not to buy the route on Thursday until the live stream, so we can take another look at it. However, I don't know how high we can keep our hopes. Even the official screenshots on Rivet's website give away the weakness in scenery. Basic textures, angular and sharp borders between surfaces, little foliage, bright and flat texturing. I think the preview stream was more or less representative of what we can expect.
     
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  4. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest


    Don't have fun with him he's a troll. He only comes to the forum to denigrate, besides he doesn't like anything and I even wonder if he has TSW2 see TSW1.
    In fact you right click on his username and you put him in ignore.

    Good day to you my friend.

    PS: I don't like the mountains but I'm going to have fun anyway ....
     
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  5. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Because the AI have to drive them too, I guess. They go backwards and forwards all day, so will point in one direction only. DTG have never managed it with trains that don’t leave through portals and even with some trains that do, so I doubt Rivet can.
     
  6. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    What is the scenery like from the driving position?
    As a train sim, I want to drive the train and get the feeling of doing so on differing systems.
    A 5 km away vista of the Landwasser viaduct or the view from 15000 feet isn't required. Does the cab view look similar to reality?
     
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  7. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Every game has a HUD and if it's not working properly that's a problem that has to be fixed. It is there for a reason.
     
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  8. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    You are in the high mountains, the mountains are all around. You will always see them from the cab as well. That's the problem. If I didn't see this ugliness from the cab, I wouldn't care. I really only care about the "view of the train driver". But in this particular route, the train driver is also permanently looking at the mountains - aka - distant scenery.
     
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  9. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your knowledge bro. Hopefully, DTG can show Rivet how they do the trees sometime soon!
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree it would add to the interest, as would having freight wagons on the back of the passenger runs
     
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  11. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    I'm just as smart as everyone else here. ;)

    That would be great, because the route could be really beautiful if it was implemented decently.
     
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  12. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    See for yourself....... 8F29ECC6-84CC-47F7-BE32-FE8A76A583A0.png 62A3FC83-C7F5-4FB5-815A-C0714032EB83.png 007F44B4-F9FE-4B2B-AEAC-A6CE96FF971E.png
     
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  13. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Really? There is so much good in this DLC. I’m still going to buy it. I’m very well aware of what the mountains look like in real life, I only live an hour away. I never had particularly high expectations for the distant scenery so while I would love it to be better, I’m not surprised that it is not. I’m there to drive the train, the route and the architecture are very recognisable and I suspect that when everything is covered in snow, the mountains will anyway look a lot better. I think I will get my enjoyment from it, even with the lack of variety in services.

    As for damaging DTG’s reputation, in my opinion, that is nonsense. DTG can do that enough on their own without Rivet’s help. There are enough issues and bugs with their own DLC’s to keep them busy for months. I’m fine with that. So long as the game is playable, I’m perfectly happy with what we’ve got.

    Both DTG (for TSW) and Rivet have been pretty good recently with bug fixes. So let’s wait and see what happens.

    I don’t want releases by anyone held back because a few people saw a live stream and didn’t like what they saw. I want to play it and make my own opinion. There is always the option to refund and for this route there is time to run all of it.
     
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  14. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Member

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    Turning the locomotive will not fix the gradient-issue, as it will then be wrong in the other direction. The trains won't leave the map on this route, as the trains only do Chur-Arosa and back.
    No solution to the problem but a hint: In the direction Chur-Arosa, the gradient is always positive as it climbs all the way in this direction.
    Arosa-Chur, it is descending all the time.
     
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  15. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    A new video even without live like Sam and Matt we made would not be luxury !!
    That of the live with Jamie is so jerky and of poor quality that it does not help at all, on the contrary, it adds even more the impression of "bad" details and sloppy work!

    I also think that the colors are not beautiful at all and that it is partly because of the quality of the direct.

    I am not defending Rivet, they can do it themselves, I have no intention of getting reimbursed.
    I want Rivet to continue making routes on TSW2 and for that it will take time to get much better, hence my support.

    Note that :
    I will probably be less nice the next time, it's not very beautiful and it's the truth, but there are still some very beautiful things on this road that are worth the effort but ...
    Yes, the next route will be better, I hope, we don't necessarily ask for new "capacities" but we want at least a "pretty" route that's a minimum.
    The choice of textures is very important, the viaduct is not beautiful at all, the concrete looks like everything except concrete !!!


    In short, my advice is to redo a "clean" video, why not in the fall this time (better color contrast).

    I still believe that the best way to get an idea is to test ourselves, the videos and screens never reflect what you will see in front of your eyes on your screen with your color settings and your graphics settings (on PC) .

    A mixed freight and passenger service would also be welcome even if this is not very realistic.
    We still pay 30 euros, and at this price I also want to have something to amuse myself, 40 service is not enough especially when they are identical.

    I take DTG and Clinchfield as an example, the services are not really "classy" in reality and many of them have been able to ensure to give us value for our money.

    No service is the same !!
    Do the same you will certainly earn valuable points from the comu.

    To forget the bad side of TSW2 make sure to bring out its good sides, namely its gameplay ...
     
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  16. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It would, until you finish a service and click "return to free roam", then you've just broken it, without putting the loco on a turntable at teach end.

    Don't worry - Natalie taking leave due to family issues has triggered that.
     
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  17. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I was wondering... I hope, everything will be fine there \o/
    She started to become such a smart beast in Sam's style. Well...
     
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  18. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    Yep, Natalie is cool. Miss her a bit too.

    I have to say, I like all three of them, plus Matt and Adam.
    They do a really good job and complement each other well. Especially the last challenges were great (Munich... PZB).
    And as a German, I love the British humor anyway, especially the Matt vs Adam or Matt vs Sam discussions....

    For me, they also made a significant contribution to the fact that I now have a much more positive perception of DTG. That shows that they are doing their job right, I would say.
     
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  19. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    Two Arosa streams this week with Jamie & Rivet on Wednesday and Thursday showing how to drive the train correctly and also interestingly.......

    "They will also be answering the important questions you have raised since our previous stream"
     
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  20. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    8F47270C-BE7A-4590-82C4-1FF86519EC6C.jpeg 4A6D8760-85E5-4155-BF3E-A0D2FB018AF8.jpeg 381CB0EA-92AE-4E5B-88C4-9F213B276BA6.jpeg 155DA21A-A39F-4341-A047-359D13A9FBBE.jpeg 47C2AC6B-E4C0-493B-A4AE-87CBC1D0BDC2.jpeg
    these screenshots can give you an idea of the scenery around us and not the distant scenery.
     
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  21. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they just rant about how consoles, time restrictions, and/or performance were a priority for Rivet and dismiss the tree issue as mundane to gameplay. Of course they're probably never going to address the real issue, which is why can Clinchfield magically handle more trees and better scenery than Arosa? Answering that question without throwing Rivet under the bus is impossible.
     
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  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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  23. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    which could have you argue that soemthing is wrong with general texturing or with shadows...
     
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  24. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    If they give us an honest explanation I don’t see that as a negative. Comparing a route made by DTG that has had 4+ years of experience using the tools for TSW, to Rivets second route for TSW. There are published articles on the DTG website from 3rd party and 2nd party developers stating how much of a learning curve there is to go from content in TS Classic to making content for TSW. A good example is if you look at Rivet’s Arosa line for TS Classic, you will see that they do a great job. Which leads me to believe that this isn’t a question of their work ethic or their passion for a project but stems more from engine limitations and the amount of time needed with the developer tools to do what you see in the Clinchfield route in terms of distant scenery. DTG up until very recently hasn’t had a good track record with distant scenery, so it makes sense why these two are different from each other.
     
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  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Okay I think the issue about the scenery has been done to death now. Let’s wait until the stream where Rivet answer our questions before commenting anything else about it...
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, I can't fault the inclinometer, even for "real men," because the game can only do video and audio- it can't simulate the pull of gravity on your tuchus.
     
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  27. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I am still buying this because Swiss routes are some of my favorite in TS. Rivet did fix a lot of stuff in IOW when it first released and I think they will do justice to this route too. I can't wait to play.
     
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  28. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Rivet: Team, let's do a 2001 looking mountains and trees for a 2021 game and charge 30€
    You: I sTill wiLL SuPporTe RiVet
    When i think i have seen all ahahaha
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  29. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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  30. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Does Apple provide us with a train simulator? Such a big company and they even cannot give us a train simulator. Even worse with Microsoft, they miserably failed to create a second gen train simulator. So we may complain a lot but for this moment DTG is our best bet for doing train simulation. I know there may be a bit more serious competition, but is not there yet.
     
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  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Just read it and the cynic in me reads "cop out" answer in order to protect sales.
     
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  32. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree. ‘Cop out’ is a succinct way to put it.

    Go and play pretty much any other game released in the last 5 years, and you will struggle to find a single one where the distant world looks even half as bad as this DLC for TSW.
     
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  33. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but it is in closed beta ;)
     
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  34. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    From Rivet.

    Here's a little statement from us to you:


    In making this route, we are trying to provide players with a challenging, narrow-gauge, twisty route which simulates some of the steepest gradients that exist on standard adhesive (non-cog) railways. As you’ll appreciate, building any simulation of this type requires a compromise between many factors that are hungry for performance. During the development, we knew that some components would have to be simplified to achieve generally acceptable framerates, so we decided to prioritise the driving aspects and close-scenery.

    The problem with simply adding more trees is that there are obviously hard limitations of how many assets, and the detail level of each, there can be in a route without impacting gameplay and performance, particularly when trying to make something run well across three different platforms with different performance capabilities.

    We are very conscious that other routes have put more of their performance budget into trees, but every route is different, and we've tried to get the best overall experience for players for this particular route. We did try having more trees in earlier builds of Arosa, but it caused a drop in frame-rate, and we thought people would value a better gameplay experience more.

    So whilst we'd effectively have to re-do most of Arosa if we wanted to change it now, it's something we'll think hard about for future routes - and if you don't think we got the balance right with Arosa, what's useful is to tell us where you think we've perhaps added *too much* detail that we could trade-off to have more trees, and we can factor that into the plans for future routes.
     
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  35. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    "During the development, we knew that some components would have to be simplified to achieve generally acceptable framerates"

    Ok so Rivet has to reduce the quality because DTG doesn´t know how to optimize their graphics with UE4.
    Same as Tram Sim or Fernbus - I pick up a motor and pray the lord in order to make my game magically good. But no sorry.

    And do not speak about small team and small budget - Look at Automobilista and see what the brazilian team of Reiza has done with it (also with support of project cars experience)

    Personnally don´t think that UE was a good choice for such Train simulation
     
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  36. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Not saying whether you’re right or wrong. But they are never going to win.

    It’s not like any of us can go out and put a load more trees in the route and see what the frame rate is like.

    If indeed there is a performance limitation then it is almost certainly on DTG’s side and beyond Rivet’s control. It’s pointless comparing it to other games when they have only TSW to work with.

    So yes Clinchfield looks amazing but it’s a different terrain. I doubt whether DTG or Rivet are going to give us numbers such as total assets so we can properly compare them.

    I can’t see how providing an answer protects sales though. If anything they are being honest and saying it’s not going to change. I think that’s more likely to harm sales.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  37. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Yes and where is the problem?

    I think I'm clear, don't I?
    I don't like the mountains like everyone else here but I still want the road and support Rivet.
    So what is bothering you Mister?

    I still have the right to buy what I want, what is this two euro reflection !!!

    Keep your rage to yourself and especially away from me.
     
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  38. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Btw Simrail will bring all answers we are looking for...or not :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  39. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Chill out ahahah. I think you are doing the right thing to support a studio that delivers a 2001 looking scenery in a 2021 UE engine game for 30€, just that. Very humble from you i got to say.
     
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  40. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    If they deliver the advance simulation that they are promising, i think we will finally see a Train Simulator, and not a train game
     
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  41. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Rivet's reply is understandable, however the problem remains. If there is really no way to make such a route differently then that means TSW 2 is not capable of displaying spectacular scenery in general. Which I can't believe since we have routes like the new Clinchfield, but also older routes like MSB or RSN which have tons of scenery and trees, and they still look and run great on consoles (or at least not worse than less tree-heavy routes).

    The problem here is immersion. While I agree that the driving experience and close scenery are most important, you simply can't deny that one of the biggest draws of a Swiss route is the distant scenery. The beauty of the Alps. As both a driver or a passenger, the most memorable aspects of these routes is the utter beauty of the place where they are. And if the simulator can't immerse you in this beauty then a big part of the Swiss experience is lost.

    That being said, I don't think the only visual problem with Arosa is distant trees only. Somehow, the whole route looks lower quality than basically any TSW route, especially in TSW 2. Some people in this thread have used terms like "cartoony" and "cel-shaded" which, while not accurate, represents the problem well. Almost everything in this route seems too bright, angular. Flat textures, sharp borders between surfaces. It's not organic, textures have no depth, my brain sees merely editor objects put together, not real locations. I would say it looks as if it was somewhere between the visuals of TS 2021 and TSW 2. Not quite the former but not reaching the level of the latter. Whether it's down to poly count, shaders or more advanced techniques, I don't know since I'm not an environment artist nor a programmer.

    I can only hope that Rivet Games will inevitably get better at creating content, just as DTG themselves are constantly improving (in my opinion their last pieces like SEHS, Class 465 and Clinchfield are the most convincing to date). I'm looking forward to possibly more Swiss routes (preferably with the Allegra next time ;)), hopefully with more realistic details and graphical techniques.
     
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  42. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    People will likely say this is comparing Apples and Oranges (although for the life of me I can't see why) but bare with me. I honestly believe so many people that play TSW play only TSW or Train Sim and have almost forgotten what other games look like.

    Here's a couple of screens from Far Cry 5, a game not without it's problems or critics, but one that was also available on last-gen consoles. A game released only a year (2018) after the first iteration of CSX:HH (2017) and built in an engine that debuted in 2004. If mountains and lighting can look like this in a game and engine of their respective ages then in my eyes Rivet (and dare I say it, DTG for that matter) simply have no excuse for producing the sort of scenery seen on Arosa line. If TSW really is struggling that much for performance then surely something else must be going on that needs sorting out ASAP. FC5 manages to look like that whilst using 50-55% of my GPU and pumping out 80-100fps in 4K, as opposed to the 98-100% TSW uses whilst struggling at times to maintain 60fps (admittedly with engine.ini edits).

    Someone will likely blow me out of the water and tell me a 1000 times over why I'm wrong, but as a simple consumer of games I'm struggling to see how.

    1.jpg 2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  43. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to defend Rivet as I'm disappointed with the visuals massively and no matter how good a sim is I did not buy a pc for that type of graphical disaster.

    I do wonder whether one of the challenges is that (from what I've seen) Clinchfield is hemmed in so everything is close by whereas Arosa has wider expanses. Lets be honest though DTG are very smart in releasing their stream the day after to show how superior it looks. Will only help the sales on that so fair play to them.

    It's like standing a used Ford focus next to a new Ferrari and saying they're both the same price, take your pick
     
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  44. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, it's not even about the trees. It's the late 1990's textures and low quality terrain mesh that are the major problem, the trees would simply be an attempt to cover that up.
     
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  45. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Member

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    Being able to explore around the lake in Arosa is actually nice, but I would have preferred some more distant scenery instead of that.

    I hope that tomorrow, they will announce at least that they add some freight or mixed services to the timetable (even if it is only in a soon-to-come update).
    I am really interested in this route, as I know it really well IRL, but I have not yet decided, if I will buy it or not. This will depend on tomorrows and Thursdays stream.
    I would have preferred Sam to do tomorrow's stream as he also does ask critical questions, but let's wait for what we will get.
     
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  46. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    If they did this, then that would be enough for me to buy it...
     
  47. whiteleym#4287

    whiteleym#4287 Member

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    I can live with the less trees in the route but I would like to see them change/update the poor textures. The road in Chur looks terrible as does the concrete on the bridges. A re-colouring/texturing of the grass and mountains would probably help a fair bit too.

    If they could address these issues and add some timetabled freight (despite not being entirely accurate), the route would become a must purchase for me again as there's a lot of good stuff in there. However in it's current state I can't support them and spend £25 of my money, i'll hold off for Clinchfield instead.
     
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  48. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the person above that suggests that Sam does the Stream on Wednesday.

    I really like Jamie and his enthusiasm for Swiss railways, but he won’t ask the questions like Sam would.

    Even if Sam was involved with one of the streams, I think we’d find out a lot more.
     
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  49. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    I cannot wait Wednesday to discuss about iphones and others Apple products with the DTG Team.
     
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  50. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought I had when I woke up this morning (which is where all my best ideas come from he lied) - maybe Clinchfield uses single placed assets that contain, say, 20 trees, and/or something akin to the Asset Block in the TS1 editor - whereas in Arosa, every single tree is an individual asset, therefore they can't do loads. Probably wrong, but again - just a thought.
     
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