Arosa: The Story So Far

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

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  2. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Amazing stuff! DTG + 3rd party developers such as Rivet games are continuing to making TSW2 one of the best Train Simulators on the market, especially for the console community!
     
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  3. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward for tonights stream! 3rd parties will save TSW!
     
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  4. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see that there is no endless OHLE wire, but a realistic end and start of the OHLE is implemented (with the weights to keep the wire taught and everything), hopefully that becomes standard for all new routes :)
     
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  5. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    The road is super beautiful, the mountain is pretty well made, I am going to pre-recommend now.
    Magic Rivet is back !!!!
     
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  6. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    It looks so bad and awful from the Mountains and the less trees
     
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  7. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    It looks so good and fantastic from the mountains and the more trees.
     
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  8. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Can I please make a request to DTG to look at Rivet Games releases, in particular Arosalinie and Isle of Wight, where the player can walk round the lake at Arosa and the Ryde Pier. Then consider putting similar features into future routes. I would have loved to walk around St Pancras but sadly, it wasn’t to be.
     
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  9. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    But then this is a train simulator, and that time can probably be invested elsewhere better :)
     
  10. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    The tree line around Arosa is at 1900 meters, not much if you start at 1775 meters in the center of the village. That means: unobstructed view in all directions. There isn´t a dark, tight Sherwood Forest around Arosa...
     
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  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The live stream tonight showed us everything. I think its good that the bugs that were noticeable don’t look like they will affect gameplay at all, and that they were acknowledged by Jasper during the stream. I’m very impressed so far.

    The route and the train look marvellous. The attention to detail is beyond anything we usually get to see. All I need now is for it to be as good on console and I’m set for this becoming a favourite. I would have liked a freight run or two in the timetable but that’s not a huge issue.

    Looks like I’ll soon be spending many happy hours in the mountains.
     
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  12. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the stream, it really did look excellent. I’ve never bought anything on release day but I think I will for this.

    I was a little disappointed to see the timetable is just a shuttle up and down with no freight or depot runs visible. I appreciate it’s a complex timetable already with the passing places but some use of the yards would be awesome in a future update.
    I know the scenarios use the log trucks at least.
     
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  13. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It seems to fit the normal MO for TSW routes visually. The train looks fantastic. Immediate close by scenery looks decent-good. However again the product is let down by the appallingly low draw distance of TSW. I can see Rivet did as much as they could to try and make the sweeping alpine views look good, but TSW just isn't up to the task. The Unreal engine can do so much more than DTG do with it. It's a shame. It results in muddy distant scenery with bland, pudgy green blobs for mountains. It looks like Rivet gave it their best but were hamstrung by the design of TSW itself. Was afraid that was going to happen when the Arosa Line was announced. A route that needs to make use of long draw distances and detail beyond the immediate 10m around the train was always going to struggle with a game that is notably poor at long draw distances and detail beyond the immediate 10m around the train.

    I've bought every TSW route, usually at launch, but was really let down by SEHS's lack of detail and what to me was an overall sloppy scenery (TS1 had more detail than the TSW version which shouldn't happen). Giving this a pass.

    Edit: Extra credit to Rivet for trying to avoid using the DTG default stark white Walmart Special Plastic X-Mas trees in winter when possible. https://www.christmascentral.com/4-...ACYG-XbPpJy8dzSh5-9P-QN6oii4jz-0aAjOHEALw_wcB
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
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  14. DeStijl

    DeStijl Well-Known Member

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    I have to say that as much as i wanted to like this, I can't disagree with the negative feedback regarding the distant scenery (specifically the mountains.)

    Perhaps the gameplay will be immersive enough to distract from it, but it seems unlikely, especially given the low speeds across the entire route - which will only allow more time for clear views of those mountains.
     
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  15. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    8809EBF4-33FE-4AFB-8999-51DFBA04A2E5.jpeg EA97C5B1-9AC1-4FA4-B0B9-479A0A9E8B35.jpeg B543F597-973B-4237-843C-7FEFB6F921FB.jpeg 375AECF5-1AD8-4BCC-BCAB-C3801599F88F.jpeg EA58FC27-D2D1-4E2E-98C5-BA0425E390F1.jpeg
    A couple screen shots from the trailer. Looking good!
     
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  16. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I am very impressed with what I have seen on the stream, and good to hear from Jasper that there are some minor bugs with patches to come after release.
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As Jasper said in the stream, the tree density is NOT a limitation of TSW, but a concession to the low performance of last-gen consoles. If they only had to build for next-gen consoles and high-end PCs, they could have put in a lot more trees.
     
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  18. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    What a loser's mindset from them. This is why graphical settings exist. There is no reason other than laziness that they couldn't have limited the visual fidelity where they needed to for old consoles and allowed a better experience on PC. They chose not to, and I choose not to buy. Both DTG and Rivet need to do better. Full stop.
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Actually there is a reason: they don't want to engage in platform apartheid. This apparently is lost on certain PC supremacists.
     
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  20. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    They're called GRAPHICS SETTINGS. Heard of them? And let's be honest, TSW isn't very good looking for even a base PS4.
     
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  21. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    And why we have much more trees even for standard PS4 on SPG, on RSN and MSB for instance, if they have such a low performance.
     
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  22. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    All very carefully framed so as not to show off the awful distant scenery. I mean, they could at least have painted the ground on the hills a much darker ground colour for spring/summer to make the sparse trees that are there not stand out so lonely. The winter screenshot, for example, looks so much better because the ground colour doesn't draw attention to just how few trees are actually placed in the scenery.
     
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  23. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    The pc graphics setting screen and the consoles screen are totally different beasts. Console users aren't able to scale the settings up or down.
     
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  24. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the main issue for me is the distant trees. I'm not a console player, so I don't know what controls they have or not, but as a PC user, the level of detail is just disappointing. If you compare it to the screenshots from Clinchfield or my experience of Sand Patch Grade, they have wayyyyyyyyy more trees and both look MUCH better. In the current version of Arosa shown on the stream the train looks amazing and the near scenery is very good, but it doesn't look much better than TS2021 in terms of the mid-far distance. I also think the ground textures are a little bit basic/simplistic on the road sections of Chur unfortunately.
     
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  25. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    If there were more trees then people would be complaining that the beautiful Swiss scenery is hidden. by all the trees.
     
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  26. eurocityboy

    eurocityboy Active Member

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    I have to agree with others here: It may sound harsh, but the landscape aspect of the route is just awful. The rolling stock, signalling, and centenary look brilliant, but the distant and medium scenery is nothing shy of shoddy. There is no amount of excuses they can come up with to convince me that THIS is the best they could have done:

    langwies.png

    It will probably look okay-sh in winter, but I don't just want to drive the line in winter. Let's hope they make better Swiss routes in the future on which we can use the brilliant Ge 4/4 II. But I'm giving this one a pass.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  27. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, after what I saw on the live stream I’ll get this when it’s on sale I think.
     
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  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The train itself - OK
    Route, scenery - not OK

    I love trains and I love mountains. This route should be about epic mountain scenery but it isn't.
    To justify Rivet a little: the second, third plan, 'background' - these are not TSW's strengths at all.
    Hopefully, the people who are longing for this route won't be so disappointed or even they will be happy!

    Stream quality - I love the way you joke... git gud asap * before CRR stream *
    If there was no fps counter, I would have had a heart attack, laughing - very unprofessional

    Overall impression - it's OK, but without the hint of delight, I was quietly hoping for.

    PS don't forget the round buttons for consoles! :D
     
  29. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    I'm puzzled by how preview pics for clinchfield can show totally forest covered mountains. Sandpatch is also well forrested even on console. How does this work out? Is there some knowhow DTG use and haven't shared with Rivet?

    Whilst last gen console has its limitations, they're obviously capable of running SPG.
    I get 20fps on average for SPG for a base PS4, I think we deserve better from rivet there.
    The rest of the route and detail: beautifully done.
    Don't spoil it on this one front!
     
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  30. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the Arosa-Line is a high mountain route, so there arn't as many trees as for example on Sand Patch Grade. Not that much grows so far up and mostly only weathered rock faces are visible.

    My first impression of the route, very detailed and nicely made. The cars that automatically stop in front of the arriving trains in the street area are a great innovation!
     
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  31. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know what Rivet's history is with listening to customers and changing significant scenery issues like this? Are we moaning into an echo chamber or is there a chance they might actually patch/fix/upgrade it if enough of us moan and say we're not going to buy it?
     
  32. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Let’s pretend this is a 3rd party developer, creating a route in a game where even DTG can’t pull off better scenery, and let’s moan about it.
    I think your better off just not buying this route if it doesn’t live up to your expectations then to expect them to change the entire route scenery. I also think if the trees are what stopping you from enjoying this route and causes moaning so much that you can’t enjoy the other very detailed parts of this route then maybe this route isn’t for you.
     
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  33. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Very happy to see ignorance has made a return to the community!
     
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  34. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    If you call the majority opinion ignorance, then I congratulate you.
    The scenery is not pretty as you can see very clearly.
    Still, of course, it can be considered a successful product.
     
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  35. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    It is sure that there are some who find it hard to believe that Switzerland is not Canada !!!
     
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  36. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The problem is not the number of trees. It just looks unnatural.
    This is the case of TSW in general, and it becomes very visible here.
    A large number of trees, as in SPG, CRR - masks this bad phenomenon.
     
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  37. eurocityboy

    eurocityboy Active Member

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    This is what Langwieser viaduct looks like in reality:

    [​IMG]

    My problem isn't that the landscape doesn't look like Canada or Appalachia. My problem is that is looks like a picture drawn by a five year old. I rest my case.
     
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  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The depth of field could improve the reception slightly. I don't know what it looks like with UEngine4.

    Below, for comparison, a bit nicer 'background', although landscape drawing is not UEngine's strong point in my opinion.
    Paradoxically (in the context of the selection made by DTG), the landscape is an important part of train games.

     
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  39. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Even from these cherry-picked shots you can see there just aren't enough trees on the route, not to mention how they are not of the alpine kind at all.
    The tree line excuse is false as well, Arosa is under it and still has fairly dense forests, as well as open "fields".
    Why people are moaning? Because the distant scenery and the views are a vital part of route like this and the reason why it's special in real life. And this doesn't look decent.

    That being said, apart from the distant scenery, I love what they have done with the route. You can clearly see they've put quite a bit of effort into many different features, details and custom assets (something that DTG doesn't). My favourite part is probably the realistic catenary wiring, but I also love the details and buildings in Chur, aswell as the loco with the modeled engine room. The signaling system seems pretty good too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  40. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    For this exact reason I wouldn't feel confident critiquing Rivet too much, I think many of the shortcomings were caused by either limitations of TSW or last gen consoles, it doesn't make any sense to me that a team that puts so much effort into some things becomes so lazy* when it comes to create the landscape.

    EDIT: For clarification, I am trying to defend Rivet, by saying it doesn't make sense for a team to be so lazy after they showed the will to put so much effort into making the train, IMPLYING the were, in fact, not lazy, and it makes sense for me they put the same amount of effort into the mountain as they did in the train, but were limited by the game/last gen console hardware or something out of their control.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  41. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The issue with TSW in general is the abysmal draw distance and shadow rendering. This means that any route which isn’t plastered with trees will look poor, even if it doesn’t have many trees in real life.

    I don’t think it’s completely fair to blame Rivet for everything. Yes, it could look better, but you have to remember TSW just doesn’t do good when it comes to hilly routes and distant scenery.
     
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  42. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I play on base ps4 and I'm not going to complain about the scenery, I'd rather it run smoothly and without freezes than see more trees. What is clear to me is that if I played on PC I would not accept what they showed us yesterday, with textures worthy of a PS3. Games have to be optimised for each platform, I don't think you can penalise those who with their effort have bought a high performance gamer machine. It's not fair. And anyway RSN of 2018 or RRO of 2019 look much better than this.
    But beyond the scenery I see other things that don't convince me. I find the sounds very poor. I don't understand why the developers want to give us the same auditory sensation driving a train as a truck. Iron against iron gentlemen, this has to screech, it is the most characteristic of the railway world. In any video you see of any train in the world you can hear it.
    Another thing that nobody says, where are the pedestrians in Chur? I have seen busier deserts. Would it cost so much to make a routine with some NPCs coming and going through the streets? In 32 bit consoles there were already games with pedestrians, don't tell me they can't put some because I don't believe it.
    If we add to this services without freight and with little imagination, I think I won't buy it for now, maybe in a sale. And it's a shame because I was really looking forward to this route. The train is well done, you can see that they have made an effort, but for me it is not enough.
    Ah! and once again it shows that "work in progress" is what we will find in the final version because I don't see any difference between what they showed us first and this.
    Sorry for my poor English.
     
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  43. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    100% true! Proper shading brings the scene to life.

    If the moving clouds cast a shadow over these boring terrain textures, everything would look better right away.
    Here is an example from another simulator:

     
  44. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Just put on Youtube
     
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  45. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I must admit, last night's stream wasn't the best at showing off this route and I have to agree with a lot of the criticism of the scenery, it did look kind of simplistic in parts. I'll still buy this route because the train itself and the track, stations and railside modeling do look very nice, for the most part. And the driving experience looks like fun. Overall, though, each recent release has had the effect of making Sand Patch and some older routes look better and better. I'm hoping that Clinchfield will buck the trend.
     
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  46. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Can someone explain to me why having a superior graphics setting for PC is a bad thing? or as one person put it "apartheid" - we have better hardware, why should we be hamstrung by the slowest runner? you get your version, we get a *optional* better version - I think that is fair.

    Its because of views like that that TSW will never reach its potential, you're ok with mediocrity and expect everything to be the same and fair. If we can run more we should be allowed the option to run more.

    DTG have invented their own limitations - the console isnt the issue largely, its their own decision to hold themselves back - they're holding the rock that is drowning them and they wont let go.
     
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  47. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, first of all, it's been pretty well established that console players constitute the majority of "stakeholders" in the game. TSW2 might well not exist but for their participation. The next generation of consoles are as powerful as many pc's, but most console players have PS4 and its XBOX equivalent (I can't interpret the Microsoft nomenclature). So we PC players owe them the ability to play the game with decent graphics. And they have the disadvantage of not being able to scale their settings. DTG can hardly be expected to code 2 or 3 separate versions of the game. So, I, for one, am not troubled by the notion of parity across the platforms. Would I like the graphics and features my PC is capable of? Sure I would, and there will eventually be a tipping point when the new consoles outnumber the current ones and we can all enjoy great graphics, better gameplay and higher framerates. Until that day comes, let's not be distracted from discussing the finer points of the game by divisive notions that some forum members sometimes darkly intimate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  48. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    My Series X can run TSW2 in 4K and at a smooth 60fps. I could argue that the PC is holding the game back from its potential on consoles, the thing about PC is there is a wide spectrum of capability. You may have a super powered PC but there are people who have a PC on par with the PS4. If your a PC player you have lots of different options for a Train Simulator game, sadly on consoles DTG is the only company that were willing to bring this niche hobby to the wide majority who wouldn’t be able to experience it otherwise. A PC might be powerful but the millions on console who are able to enjoy this game and this hobby is much more powerful then that. From the survey DTG did recently, it looks like a “Next generation” of TSW2 might be on the horizon. I’ll get to use the extra power on my Series X, if your PC can handle it, you too can benefit. All the while the majority of players on last gen consoles who helped support this game and make it what it is, can still get a great experience without being looked down on.
     
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  49. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    Nicely put.
     
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  50. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    The scenery was exactly what I expected and it’s okay, the train is good enough to distract from that.

    The lack of any interest in the timetable is very disappointing however and it has ruined it a little bit for me. Why have the wagons and not use them. There didn’t even seem to be depot runs.The line felt busy at least which was good with lots of trains passing- alas they are all identical.

    I’d rather have an interesting timetable than be able to walk around a lake or walk a few steps into the engine room personally.

    I know Rivet do look at this forum so please just add a bit more interest to the timetable and you will sell it to a lot of us.
    DTG managed to add rail tours and freight to SEHS in a week so I imagine you can too.
     
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