Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Mar 19, 2021.
LOL, sorry but that's a cop out. This is a real life photo of the Arosa line.
Rivet chose to make a route that is literally famous BECAUSE of its sweeping alpines views, but those sweeping views are TS2021 level and below in some areas. That's simply not good enough. If you like the DLC, by all means buy it, but I'm not alone in saying that despite having looked forward to the route previously, this is a hard pass and a major disappointment.
I think it’s fair to compare these images, Train simulator classic and Train sim world don’t run the same exact engine as one another, at least I don’t believe as well as Train simulator classic is only available on PC which this route is $25 on TSW2 while being $40 on TS classic. Rivet has stated in their 1st route IOW that they were still getting used to the TSW tools, they have had much more experience with the Train simulator classic tools. Choosing “Summer clear” for weather settings used on the preview stream was a bad choice. I’d argue every route in this game isn’t the prettiest when you have 0 clouds in the sky and are trying to enjoy a 3 mountain wide panorama of your train at 11am. If the clouds and the “wetness” slider were turned up, the mountain side would be darker green, or if it were another season.
This also is a real life picture. There are some dense wooded areas but a vast majority is this.
One thing to mention is that the lighting in the TS2021 version just looks better. I don't know what the lighting looks like on the Arosa Line in real life, as I've never been there in person, so I can't attest to realism, but it looks more pleasant.
The texture on the bridge in TSW2 is just laughably awful by comparison.
1. You're right, they're different engines. TS2012 uses a DX10 engine from 2012!!! TSW is using one of the most powerful and advanced engines currently available for this and next generation games. They should not be comparable let alone TS2021 look better. That's an unmitigated failure on DTG and Rivet's part.
2. No excuses for this only being their second route. They're charging full route price for it, it's fair to expect quality. This is a product, not freeware.
3. The weather settings do not make the route look poor. The lack of detail and sloppy scenery design make it look poor. Some clouds aren't going to magically add detail where there is none.
...and the route doesn't look anything like that either lol.
Listen, if you think this is some triumph of the EU4 engine and worthy of being a modern game in 2021...well, I'd tell you that your standards are really, really low, but I hope you buy it and enjoy it. However compared to what is possible with the engine and even with TSW the game (and has been done in other routes), this is not good to me and many others.
1. Just because the engine is more powerful doesn’t mean the tools used to create a route are easier, here is a quote taken from a TSW article from a person familiar with TS Classic tools using the TSW tools. “For my first project in TSW, I had the honour of doing the setup and audio for the BR Class 45/1 featured in Northern Trans-Pennine, this was certainly a new experience and the learning curve meant I was on the project for quite some time. This was very shortly thereafter followed by the BR Class 33, which certainly went a lot more smoothly.” I’d love to see what Rivet can do when they have as much experience using the tools with creating a TSW2 route as they do with TS Classic. Also again, Arosa is $40 on TS classic but
would it also surprise you to know that most TS Classic routes look better then TSW2 routes when talking about scenery?
2. “No excuses” mentality, full route price yet the route is $25 instead of the regular $30. If you don’t find quality in it, that’s okay.
3. “The lack of detail and sloppy scenery make it look poor.” Yes, clouds would help with your perception of “sloppy scenery”. This route looks detailed to me.
Quote from Rivet games on their forums from February.
“You can't expect a scenery from any AAA title (like Assassins Creed or so) in Train Sim World.” I don’t know what you expect from the engine TSW2 uses but this may help with some of your expectations. Do I think this is a triumph of the UE4 engine? No, not at all. Do I think Rivet has done some outstanding work on this route, even though the distant scenery is just okay? Yes, I do.
“Lack of detail and sloppy scenery.”
I can’t say I agree.
And this highlights yet another issue with the scenery. What are supposed to be mountains comprised of complex geometry with lots of jagged edges, tons of rocks and cliffs, is instead represented in game by big uniform green hills that have very little depth and character.
One of the biggest factors that makes the Arosa Line soo special is its scenic views, so it's perfectly reasonable for one to expect this aspect to be recreated in a reasonable way.
The problem isn't just the lack of trees, it's the lack of character in the scenery itself.
For the most part, I've always supported the efforts of DTG and Rivet, however this route falls short of even their own standards. Isle of Wight, despite its few bugs and hitches, was done very well and feels like a distinct route.
However the Arosa Line will be difficult to recommend to most people, and that's purely because it lacks in one of its core selling-points.
Sure, first and foremost the driving experience needs to be nailed down. But the scenery aspect is just as important.
Excusing poor scenery in the name of performance isn't a good look, especially when it was juxtaposed with the Clinchfield preview stream. The difference in quality was remarkable, and I'm not saying that lightly. One has to beg and wonder, why on earth does the Arosa Line look the way it did on the preview stream? While the trainsets look incredible and are fun to play with, the land that they drive through isn't all too great to look at.
While yes there is some jagged rocky un-uniformed mountain sides a good part of Arosa is the big, green, mountain sides that don’t have much depth to them.
Yes, the screenshots that were provided proves this point, the mountains are completely covered in grass from top to bottom without any rock formations to make things look interesting, or snow caps on top of mountains. This look is further exaggerated by the lack of shadows that can't even reach that far. The result is something that just feels unnatural and off to the eye
From these pictures it looks like they made the mountains have the same characteristics as in real life. It looks like they put a rocks and un-uniformed geology where it should be, they also put big, green uniformed mountains with very little else, where it should be, which is also true to life.
Excuse the quality of the images, I had to enlarge them for you.
I can see why some people expected so much more from Rivets 2nd route considering the high quality of distant scenery we received from DTG’s 10th route.
I agree with the other posters. The train is nice but the distant scenery is disappointing for an alpine route. It will be a pass from me. Perhaps I will revisit it in a sale next year.
I have counted 26 of your posts in this thread defending Rivet. You definitely seem to have your life on the line!
What may not be necessary is to belittle DTG's work on other routes to justify Rivet's work on Arosa.
By the way, just a question out of curiosity... are you the one who "speak for everyone in TSW community" on the Rivet Games forums?
Hi there, and thanks for all of your feedback!
I just wanted to let you know that we're aware of the problems we do have with Arosa. We're taking all the feedback into account, the good and the bad. And even though good feedback is nicer to get, we really appreciate the active discussion in here! I will get back to you once I have something new to tell.
Hey! Glad you find me so interesting, you seem to have your life in order as well. The thing is, someone has to balance the negative, entitled, toxic parts of this community. Never have I seen a community tear apart a developer for such small mistakes then with this community. It’s really the tone, and just like with DTG, a lot of you are unfair and are unwilling to even notice good work and would rather complain that a fence post is in the wrong spot. Thank you for keeping count of my posts, and for even going to different websites to find them. I’m glad I have a fan.
appledates#4945, you start to be very boring. I think Rivet does not need such an advocate. BR
PS5 and XBOX series s/x both run at 60 FPS
I'm going to step in on that as well. If there is one thing that I absolutely hate, it is when others feel entitled to speak for me. This has nothing to do with balancing toxicity and not with finding you interesting. I have seen nobody asking you to speak for them. If you feel the need to bring balance to the forums in self righteous manner, like a weird Batman-Skywalker, that's your right. But you do not get to decide what kind of feedback gets send out. As much as you want to give positive feedback, others have every right to give negative feedback as well. And I found it to be very constructive as well. From reading here I could see more goodwill than anything else, for the most part people arguing here just want the route to be successful and as well as it can be, at least that was my impression.
But you do not speak for the whole train Sim world community and I am glad someone is calling you out on that.
You talking about having a "fan" and how someone seems to find you "so interesting" says alot more about your personality than about the one calling you out. Since you talked about being entitled and all that.
I’m not speaking for you, as “crap graphics, route bad” seems to be more in line with how some of you feel. I’m speaking for the countless people who aren’t on these forums, who don’t speak up, that will no doubt enjoy what Rivet has done with this route. If you don’t think Rivet can add to our experience on TSW2 then that’s okay.
Do you even read what we write? If you do, then you should understand by now that scenery is not a minor complaint, but a vital part of a route of this type. Pointing it out is definitely not toxic and the only entitled person here is you, refusing to even try to understand the other side and just accusing everyone. We've pointed out the positives many times but every developer will tell you that negative feedback is more useful than positive so most of the posts here are mixed.
Just to be clear: When I say critical, even harsh things on here about DTG, Rivet or others, it's not because I want to bash them, have a grudge against them or anything of the sort. I spend a significant amount of my free time with their products. However, when it comes down to it, they are still for-profit entities who charge, us, their customers money for a product we hope to enjoy. I don't expect everything they do to be perfect. But I expect it to live up to a minimum standard. The distant and medium-distant scenery on the Arosa line is so noticeably, glaringly bad that I don't think I'd ever enjoy driving it. Therefore, I won't buy it, and many other won't either. If Arosa isn't commercially successfully, Rivet should know why, it's in their own interest to collect honest feedback. However, I also have to reject the depiction of Rivet as an innocent victim of overblown community expectations: This route has been in development for over a year. They had plenty of time to talk to DTG and experiment with techniques on how to recreate the mountain scenery, which is, after all, what this route is famous for. I would never expect it to be photo-realistic or be blown away by it. But I do expect it to look decent, with an extra bit of effort going into iconic locations such as Landwieser viaduct. I can understand it not looking brilliant, but there simply is no valid excuse for it looking this bad. If they knew from the get-go their route building skills were still developing, Rivet could even have chosen to build another Swiss narrow gauge line, like the Surselva line, where the scenery is for the most part much closer to the player. Instead, they simply labelled the problem as "not important". I just disagree with their assessment, and I think their attitude about it must have been rather sloppy.
If these look “bad” and show “laziness” then so be it, I just want the new person that looks at this thread for info to know that there is more to this route then that one screen shot that’s getting trashed. As Batman would say “I'm The Goddamn Batman”.
Oh grow up and stop handpicking. Why do you even pay attention to the likes of DB628, who has a track record of adding no value to any discussion. You should ignore such statements as much as DTG and rivet will most likely. Why should you even feel insulted when someone writes something like that comment. You just ignore that like an annoying radio in the background. If such a comment gets to you as a developer/representative of a company, there are worse problems at hand.
You are just generalizing.
"seems to be more in like with how some of you feel"
don't assume how others feel, you would not know and are not to dictate how they do.
"I am speaking for the countless people who are not on the forums"
1. Who asked you to?
2. You don't even know who these individuals are, how many they are and what they feel.
You are again handpicking. How often do the people here have to write DISTANT SCENERY until you understand that the parts visible in these Screenshots are Not the issue, at least from my understanding in this thread? Why do you feel the need to push your vision of what is lazy and bad, or what is not, on others? Can there enot be different opinions without you getting offended?
Yes, just look at this awful scenery. It’s a real shame.
You are repeating yourself and I am getting bored of your sarcastic posts. My two cents on the four pictures:
1. Looks amazing, but how will it look without snow?
2. I see blank mountains and one with some sprinkled trees, and the mountains themselves look a bit like made from play-doh. But the latter is not really rivets fault.anyway I do not like the look of these mountains.
4. Looks fine.
So having given exact feedback to the pictures that you have posted numerous times now for reasons I cannot fathom, what is your point?
There is a lot good in this DLC, there is also a lot that could be better. Some people s tolerance of the not so good is different to others.
I love the route and I’m still excited for it, for me the distant scenery does not spoil the game, it just doesn’t reach its full potential. For others it spoils it completely.
I don’t like the posts calling Rivet lazy or just writing off the route completely, but that is people’s right if they want to do that. The majority of posts though have been constructive, even if I don’t agree with them. We all (except maybe a couple of people) want TSW2 to be a great game at the end of the day.
I won’t make up my mind fully until I’ve played it. I think I’ll enjoy it, if I don’t I can always refund.
I don't normally post on the forums but i think every one need to try to chill out a bit before this turns into a full blow argument.
constructive criticism is great but arguing isn't helpful
exactly, just wanted to write the same. The title here is “Arosa: the story so far” and not “we argue here: about things you only can decide for your own”
Just chill out, it’s not worth it! You can have your opinion, no one said you shouldn’t. But at the point some of you start to convince other people (or try it), for something that’s called own opinion, there is no point.
There is much worse on other DTG routes, both close to the rails and far from the rails.
Whatever route is chosen except the last one to come, all have mountain problems or distant crappy landscapes.
in short, it is an endless debate between evil and good.
I think everyone understood the other's point of view.
There are those who do not like and those who love or in any case who will not be bothered by the "virgin" mountains.
I think I'm one of those people who don't like it but will still have fun on this road. (I like the trains, I do not deprive myself for if can).
What if we move on now?
I think it's getting unhealthy, the review is only good if it doesn't rebel.
We are all adults and it's time to talk about other things.
Just put up on Youtube
I am still undecided... The gameplay and overall look of the route did hit my taste quite good. But I am put off a bit by that distant scenery, and am debating myself whether ai should pay the release price.
I still have the 3 Euro coupon from rivet and with re order discount, that takes off 6 Euro from the 29,99 price and makes it just that more attractive.
Well let's see if Jasper has some update for us until release, if rivet confis that something is being improved - let it be distant scenery or bonus timetable services with (one) freight wagon/s, that might tip me over to pre order.
Like I want rivet and DTG to succeed, and unfortunately that makes it a bit painful when new content is so close to being perfect (in my eyes at least of course).
An intricate video tutorial prior to release! DTG, take note!
The videos DTG made are fine as well, but they came very late and so far we still only have the ice and talent 2...
Anyway that video from rivet is great, liked it alot (and honestly all of their videos they uploaded in preparation for this release).
Stylish. Sophisticated no HUD raw short presentation. More into mountains.
I think these two screenshots highlight the problem in the best way. Yes, the trees in the TS classic version are better, there's probably a bit more of them there, but the keypoint definitely is the texture. If you want to make the forest look denser, you need to make the texture below it match the colour of the trees, simulate more of a dense forest. Hell even old people in denial of ageing know this - they paint the little hair they have AND the skin below it to make it look like they have a ton of hair left. And there is no way you can advocate a darker texture would tank the performance. It is an easy fix going a long way.
I just took the screenshot for literally one minute in photoshop, did a very poor job on darkening the forest and I think it still looks better than before. TSW editor definitely has some brush tool for textures, so get a decent dark green forest texture and paint the areas you want to be woods. Hell, I'll do it for free if I get access, I'll even find a proper texture myself I am supposed to write a diploma thesis, but this probably won't take me long.
Yes. Not about numbers. Idea. Nice presentation, Monder. Hope, some fixes like presented above are still possible.
it’s interesting that only the ground color makes such a big difference
Thanks, I'm going to need it !!
The video tutorials are really nice, they are clear and very well done.
Indeed that changes everything! It's less "cartoon" ...
It is the soil texture that is not good, we can see it in your photo.
I think the underlying condition for both these rather different points is this: routebuilding for TSW, or at least using the existing TSW route-building dev tools, is very, very hard. By comparison, building a route in TS Classic is something any amateur can learn to do in a weekend (I speak from experience). The learning curve for TSW is by all accounts an extremely steep one, and it's not invalid to point out that even after 10 routes DTG were still trying to figure it out. This is only Rivet's second go- and a much, much more challenging one than the comparatively straightforward geography of IOW.
Does this mean the scenery we've seen is "acceptable?" That's entirely a personal question: ultimately each individual will either buy it, or won't.
They are doing an extra stream on Wednesday now which is excellent news, Rivet are being proactive at the very least.
I would not expect any changes in the scenery but hopefully there’s an update to the timetable to announce.
where did you read that?
This was posted in the announcements.
Separate names with a comma.