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Arosa: The Story So Far

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That’s great but not really relevant to the PS4 and xbox that TSW2 is made for, and if they are trying for 60 fps on the consoles the game is made for then that’ll seriously limit everything else. Aiming for high fps is not the be all and end all of game development, that’s all I was saying, and certainly not at the expense of everything else. 60 fps can be expected on higher spec machines than the game is aimed at.
     
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  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    TWO streams back to back. Rivet must be scurrying, given the nastiness of the response to the last one.

    (I mean nasty. The scenery is to be critiqued, yes; but these threads have taken on the aspect of a torches-and-pitchforks mob, with Rivet allegedly weighing the same as a duck)
     
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  3. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I would say that if it is a big challenge to change the shape of terrain or put a different texture on it compared to older simulators, than the editor itself is poorly designed.
    Natalie posted a live stream schedule for this week and Arosa is both on Wednesday and Thursday. Rivet is supposedly going to reply to some of the feedback.
     
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  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Wednesday there will be a livestream on driving the Arosaline. At the Trainsimulator channel with Jamie and Jasper.
     
  5. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    If you noticed the Announcements today they will 2 streams for the Arosa one to make up for the poor stream on Friday, and another on the the release day so hopefully will get a better look at how to operate it.
     
  6. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    This is awesome news! It would be great to see this route with some clouds and a different season. As someone who has been with the community for a while I hope that everyone can find something that they can enjoy from this route. I think we can all agree that we want TSW2 to continue improving and growing.
     
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  7. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    You've been here since Saturday, I think. You haven't gone anywhere yet from this thread. But, I see, your humor is back, you allow yourself to joke. That's good! Without a trace of irony! :)

    I am curious about these new presentations too.
     
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  8. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Actually I had changed my email and it caused a whole mess with my original username, so I’ve been around a little longer then Saturday. I actually have a pretty dry sense of humor, more like dad jokes, but I’m glad your happy about it either way!
     
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  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    And I was wondering where did you go :)
    No kidding. Let's wait until Thursday. Let's give them a chance. BR
     
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  10. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, being the first route in Switzerland to come to TSW2 I hope there is something for the whole community to be excited about. Only a few more days!
     
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  11. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    It is a pity that a broadcast like Friday's, which should have been meant to excite fans, has caused such a sense of disappointment. Many had planned to buy this route, even pre-ordered it, but suddenly it all seems to have gone down the toilet.
    In addition, Clinchfield's great presentation has led to comparisons that have not worked in its favour.
    I hope that Rivet has taken note and on Wednesday and Thursday's streaming they will do or say something to make this route sell well. I really think they deserve it because they have worked so hard. They may have lacked a bit of time.
    I remember that after the SEHS presentation there was also a lot of criticism but DTG reacted well. They took good note, fixed a lot of things for the release and promised to finish it with a patch, which they did. I expect something similar here.
    I think if they add a bit more variety with the services, including loading and tweak the scenery a bit most would be happy!
     
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  12. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    And ultimately the comaprison is unfair, in terms of Clinchfield being in a valley instead of in the mountains, plus DTG surely have more route builders on the task.
    And SEHS, as a side note, has become one of my most loved routes to play on (I did not took as much issue with it as others seem to)
    Let's see what will happen on Wednesday, I am really on the edge of being convinced to preorder Arosa still. I just need a tiny bone :P
     
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  13. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    Love how a stream on wednesday changed so many things here to good vibes hahaha :D
     
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  14. Commiee

    Commiee Active Member

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    Those excuses are irrelevant, because Rivet themselves said it was because of consoles that they had to implement their atrocious level of distant scenery quality - not because of the number of developers or anything like that.

    Yet DtG somehow managed to do this for Clinchfield while also having to contend with consoles:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Ultimately it's very simple - if you decide to develop a route that is entirely about the scenery, and your end result looks almost worse than one on a nine-year-old engine, there are no excuses for that. I looked forward to seeing a route that's not from the overused US/UK/Germany themes, but what they showed us on the stream was eye-bleeding material, not a showcase of a route through a beautiful part of the world.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  15. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The amount of people praising the look of how "Beautiful" and "Breathtaking" the scenery looks is honestly beggars belief.

    Have people seriously not taken the time to look at real life comparisons of ARL to the TSW or EVEN the TS1 version? upload_2021-3-22_20-49-57.png [​IMG]
    Two of the same locations (beit taken during different seasons)

    I am honestly surprised that people are thinking that this acceptable and continuing to support the development of this route when quite frankly it is beyond some of the worst that I have ever seen in TSW so far. I would go so far to say that it makes Diesel Legends look "Quality" and that says a lot really.

    And lets not forget that Rivet used the excuse of "consoles" to limit the amount of trees packed into the same place simultaneously which is wrong and quite frankly NOT a reason to blame the console players at all. Clinchfield is probably one of the best examples of what can be achieved and definitely wins my heart more than Arosa will ever be.

    I am truly gutted by this, was actually looking forward to driving Arosa in TSW, looks like those hopes are dashed completely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  16. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Comparing a route made by DTG that has had 4+ years of experience using the tools for TSW, to Rivets second route for TSW. There are published articles on the DTG website from 3rd party and 2nd party developers stating how much of a learning curve there is to go from content in TS Classic to making content for TSW. A good example is if you look at Rivet’s Arosa line for TS Classic, you will see that they do a great job. Which leads me to believe that this isn’t aquestion of their work ethic or their passion for a project but stems more from engine limitations and the amount of time needed with the developer tools to do what you see in the Clinchfield route in terms of distantscenery. DTG up until very recently hasn’t hada good track record with distant scenery, so it makes sense why these two are different from each other. As for why people would think this acceptable and support the development of the Arosa line, is because there is plenty that they have succeeded with this route.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  17. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The engine limitations in UE4 is not a valid reason to limit the amount of asset placement, I've had a fair bit of experience using UE4 during college and I have found that densely packing foliage into one tile didn't really affect the framerate too heavily (although it must be said it was a very basic project I was doing) UE4 is capabale of having over thousands of individual assets as long as they are properly optimised, because of course using high poly models & textures is going to really eat up your performance

    If they REALLY were having framerate issues then perhaps they should have considered filling the spaces with 2D low poly asset textures because those are not performance hoggers and will not really be that noticeable at all from a distance. I did this trick in my mini-project and it worked fairly well.

    Now understandably building a whole route is going to take a lot more time and effort and I totally understand that, what I dont accept is throwing excuses such as "Console limitations" as lets be honest, CSX Heavy Haul, GWE, RSN etc all seem to be quite reasonably foilaged routes and run as far as I can tell on most lower gen Consoles run at quite an accepable level of framerate.
     
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  18. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Posnetek zaslona (102).png
     
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  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I don't care how much experience a route builder has with the game. All I am interested in is a finished product that meets my expectations. Arosa does not in its current state, therefore it is not a purchase for me.

    Cheers
     
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  20. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It comes back to that age old argument on whether the consoles hold back the PC version or not. Does anyone think this would have been an issue if TSW/TSW2 was PC only ?

    I know it has been stated time and time again that this isn't the case.....but the bottom line is devs are trying to accomodate 8 year old hardware.

    I know these console war / PC master race posts are frowned upon...but I think it warrants discussion.
     
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  21. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    While this MIGHT explain trees, it does not excuse the textures. Those are definitely not performance heavy and would help a whole lot in both the look of the forests and the mountains. They themselves have shown us, how powerful a texture can be with the GE 4/4 II. Just with a texture, they managed to simulate rust under the paint, screws, etc... and then they just paint the majority of the route light green. Just choose a dark colour under trees and throw some rock texture on the mountains and along rivers. You'll be surprised how much that helps, WHILE keeping the framerate. As the saying goes: "Where there's a will, there's a way"
     
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  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Jasper has lost a lot in my eyes after what he scribbled there. In terms of gameplay - there's more going on at the Munich train station than the whole Arosa. Does HMA work on consoles? I feel sorry for Rivet. In my opinion, it dumped their reputation. At least in my eyes. I am very allergic to lies and manipulation. It's not about the number of trees, but about the overall ugliness. I wish Mr. Rivet would admit his incompetence. A sad thing. BR
     
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  23. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Everyone needs to learn from their mistakes and Rivet will do better with each new road.

    I saw or read I don't remember that Matt said that on the Clinchfield it was easier to hide the mountains because it is more "deep".
    In fact there are a lot of curves and the valley is much tighter, the mountains are closer to each other

    The reason why it is more complicated for Rivet to hide the mountains on their way, is that it is much more "open" between the mountains, the valley is much wider.

    In short, what is said is said, it has been heard by Rivet and by all of us.
    I do not change my mind, the mountains are not beautiful but the road itself is quite successful.
    There are still some assets with not very pretty textures but it will come on the next roads I'm sure.

    As already said, I am not getting reimbursed, I will get an idea for myself Thursday night by playing on it.
    If I like it as it is then I keep it, if I don't like it too bad, I will do with it.

    I see my 30 euro plus as a long term investment.

    4 years ago when TSW1 was released, a lot of people in France on the forum where I was denigrated DTG and the game because it was poorly optimized, it was full of bugs etc. etc.
    I remember having myself "shouted" at DTG for leaving the US tractor loco the SW1000 for the NEC because it was just not correct.

    In short ...

    A lot of time has passed since then, I have continued to support DTG with all my might, today for the 1st time I am proud and happy with the exit of the Clinchfield.
    But it took them 4 years to get there!

    You don't become "god" in 6 months, UE4 is really very complicated.
    Rivet may not yet be as good as DTG or as good as it was on TS, they still need time.

    Maybe he should go out their roads later and take their time to polish up but don't forget that he has to live on it too.

    I do not defend the road or Rivet, we are all adults agree, it is up to us to make a choice.
    Buy or not, buy now or later on sale, it doesn't matter what matters above all is that we find our personal account there.

    I add that SPG is only available on console since TSW2, the limitations on consoles are very real !!
     
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  24. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    To answer that question, no. HMA doesn’t work on consoles which is why they had to remove the extra layers. Last gen consoles struggle tremendously around Munich train station. So much that there were lots of threads of people complaining that the frame rate dips caused by this route was hindering their enjoyment. Either way, Mr.Jasper would have much more knowledge and experience of building a route for TSW2 then anyone in this community. Whether or not you want to believe what he is saying is true is totally up to you.
     
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  25. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Plus - just to compare - I played 1 service minute ago. Ruhr - Sieg Nord. Yes. Santa RSN in person. Steep Grades. Long trains. Epic scenery. Trees. Buildings. Rich timetable. Switching. Cargo. Passengers. All that and more. Release date: 16.08.2018. I have no more questions. BR
     
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  26. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I would trade off a bit of train detail (particularly on the passenger coaches), the ability to open the windows and pull the blinds is cool... but is not something I'd use very much.

    I would also like better textures, particularly in Chur (that would improve a lot with some "weathering") and in the viaducts.

    I also don't know what they mean by "running at an acceptable level", RSN runs at 15-18 fps on current gen, if they aimed at 30 fps on the xbone and PS4 than I would guess that would be very limiting, and I would humbly suggest to reconsider their standards.

    However I think the OHLE and the Tracks should remain as they are, they are (IMO) the best in the game, also the road traffic system is brilliant and I would like that to remain unchanged as well.

    My question is, what makes this route so resource heavy compared to (for example) RSN?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm no kind of fps freak, but even to me 15-18 is unacceptable. Motion pictures run at 24.
     
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  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I chose the RSN not by accident. Unacceptable fps? Yes!
    Home route for 155. Home route for 363. Home route for upcoming 232.
    Because of unacceptable fps (what is true!)? Well. Not exactly.

    Just because of the number of copies sold. RSN is a very popular route.

    Because RSN is a very scenic, atmospheric, lovely looking route. Because TSW is about looking better than Zusi, Run8 and Train Simulator. Arosa had to be about the same. About beauty. It isn't. BR o7
     
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  29. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    I am very sorry for you !!
    I did not think that on console it was so "hard".

    the script of the signage in general eats up a lot of resources and obviously the distant landscape.
    Not especially the additions but the mountains themselves, even if they are empty it will still take some resources to display them very far.

    I have already had the problem on TS on some of my routes, notably that of the Monatana rail link where I had to put less trees on the mountains.

    After the train itself of course consumes a lot and given the quality of the train and the Rivet wagons, I think that it is here that we will have to "cut" in the future to preserve the landscape.
     
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  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Animation on film generally runs at 12 fps (the same image on two consecutive frames) and although not the same the graphics of TSW are closer to an animation to a filmed movie. You would be surprised how low fps can go before you perceive individual frames or jerkiness, the issues with a lower frame rate in computer games being more an issue of artefacts seen in the image than a perception of a low frame rate, unless the action is very fast. The fps number has to get very low indeed before that happens. When you ‘see’ a jerky image in TSW on a console is when the frame rate falls to something like about 5 fps, with a frame rate of 15 fps however, it manifests itself by stripes appearing out of the side windows and other artefacts, which motion blur helps to cover up, but not as a jerky image. People are frightened of low numbers rather than the actual experience of it. There are some people who swear they need 60 fps but they can’t tell the difference between 45 and 60 without looking at a counter.
     
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  31. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    11D04355-616B-4159-86FA-EC9248B086AD.jpeg
    MSB, which came out after RSN. I wouldn’t say the distant scenery looks the best either.
     
  32. eurocityboy

    eurocityboy Active Member

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    It's good to hear Rivet are taking the community feedback seriously. And I'm sorry I had to be so critical. I really wanted to like Arosa, and I think there are many aspects (rolling stock, trackwork, signalling, catenary) which look beautiful and deserve praise. Personally, for me, the current state of the scenery is still a deal killer. So here are my constructive suggestions for Rivet:

    1. Beef up the scenery at selective, iconic locations such as the Langwieser viaduct. No need to go over the top, but the scenery to about 100 meters from the track should be re-done to a good standard (like Clinchfield or East Coastway). Accept frame rate drops in these locations, there is no need for the route to be 60 fps end-to-end on first gen consoles.

    2. On the rest of the route, re-texture the ground to give the illusion of more tree cover and to make the mountains look rockier. Add some ultra-low-poly trees further away from the track, but sparingly, as to not cause excessive fps drops.

    3. Re-texture some of the viaducts and iconic buildings to a higher standard. Accept moderate fps drops in these locations.

    4. Add one or two combined passenger-freight or freight-only runs using the log wagons to the service mode timetable.

    5. Maybe contact the route-builders at DTG for some hands-on tips about state-of-the-art distant scenery for future routes.

    I think Rivet would find that the community would be highly appreciative and give them kudos for listening to feedback.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  33. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Really well put, and I genuinely really like your opinion. “Accept frame rate drops in these locations, there is no need for the route to be 60 fps end-to-end on first gen consoles.”. I absolutely agree with this sentence. As a console user we are used to 30-45 fps depending on the base or pro version. We are used to frame rate dips along the route at important key areas with dense scenery. if Rivet sacrificed scenery around those keys areas to run at a higher fps then we would expect from others I would be disappointed. As someone who plays on a Series X now, I will say I really appreciate the fps increase for TSW as driving at 30fps or 60fps makes a huge difference in my enjoyment of the game, but I would think a lot of those last generation console users would only expect this to run on par with other routes, and having the frames dip down to the 15s-20s in those areas is okay. If because of the type of scenery this route has made those consoles run that low for more then just those key parts, that is definitely a smart decision that they made in my opinion. Either way, I think this route has a lot going for it, and I will definitely be looking forward to drive this route. Rivet has had some patches that have really listened to our feedback, the 204 for example. While definitely not the undertaking some of the suggestions you make. I could certainly see them changing the ones that were reasonable for them to do.
     
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  34. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Guest

    It warrants no discussion whatsoever. The fact of the matter remains that performance issues on consoles are a direct result of hardware limitations when trying to calculate a trillion signals accross equally as many railway lines carrying a whole host of services - and nothing else.
    Hence the fact HMA had layers removed on consoles and, complete with an absolute stack of trees and solid distant scenery, SPG remains visually excellent.

    I genuinely wish people would stop blaming consoles for poor quality
     
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  35. Jasper_Rivet

    Jasper_Rivet Well-Known Member

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    Hey, thanks for posting the statement here as well!

    We understand that people will compare Clinchfield to the Arosa Line. Which is perfectly fine, but it isn't working a 100% if you start having a look at the landscape. Clinchfield has mostly narrow valleys with moderate hills at the side. Compared to this, the Arosa Linie has wide and open, yet very steep valleys - what I'm trying to say is that you can see way further into the valley (and therefore would need way more assets to make it a dense area).

    We're super amazed by the discussion happening here! And even thought we're not replying to every single comment, we're reading them.
    We would be pleased to see as many of you as possible in the livestream on Wednesday evening, as we're trying to answer as many questions as possible.
     
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  36. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    For me still, the biggest problem on Arosa Line is the immersive feeling or realism. I’m not too concerned about the lack of distant scenery, I’m more concerned that the scenery we do have doesn’t feel realistic. The textures we have seem far too clean, clinical and perfect. The road for instance. When compared to Clinchfield, Clinchfield feels realistic and as such, it feels much more immersive in my view. That might be being unfair and other players may disagree or not care about this, but when TSW is promoted as a realistic sim on realistic routes, the simulation might be great but the overall feeling of being immersed in the world isn’t there.

    For the record, I am not downplaying the amount of time and effort put into the Arosa Line. It’s clear a lot of detail has gone into the train for example, but all that effort is seriously undermined by the way the route looks. It’s a real shame. Again, you might well disagree or not care and that’s fine, but those are my reasons for not buying - at least on day one.
     
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  37. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Looks like at the end of the day it all boils down to:
    -add some freight/combined services
    -revisit all textures (bridges, streets, forests, mountains)
    Sounds to me like something worth a 1-week postpone capable of making the route a solid 9/10. Can we go this way? Please? I'm more than willing to wait and then buy the route compared to me passing it now.
     
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  38. animalkosmik

    animalkosmik Well-Known Member

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    In addition to Clinchfield, there is also Sand Patch Grade, where 2d trees and terrain textures are also perfectly implemented.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  39. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t need to be postponed. That’ll upset everyone who’s expecting it on Thursday.

    Needs to be done as a patch and fitted into a release slot as soon as possible after proper testing. I’d rather have a playable route now and a decent patch later.

    I suspect across all 3 platforms that isn’t as easy as it sounds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
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  40. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Surely the trees on the distant hills can be incredibly low resolution, you can even put a bunch of them together in one "forest" asset? The single trees in the screenshot of the bridge is just cringeworthy compared to the densly packed forests on show in these other shots. I would agree that the RSN/MSB distant scenery does look comparable to Arosa, but the pace of development and improvement over the last year and a bit is such that the newer routes look a lot better. I do hope DTG are communicating with Rivet at the dev level so that they can take advantage of the latest knowhow and technology/techniques in their route.
     
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  41. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a 3 month postpone to me...
     
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  42. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    And even here you can see the forest on the right side could benefit from a better texture underneath, more matching the tree colour. But yeah, SPG definitely shows TSW can handle trees in big valleys.
     
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  43. adam.fisher6912

    adam.fisher6912 Member

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    Am i the only one who is bored to tears with this post ?
    If you are that upset just don't buy it. It really is that simple. Yes the graphics in the distance are not the best, but does it need page after page of vitriol ?
    I will buy it as i think it is a fascinating route that I will enjoy. If a patch comes out to improve / add to it then all well and good.
    But I refuse to give Rivet a kicking. They know full well by now that people aren't happy. Let them deal with it, keep your money and buy it later if it reaches your expectations.
     
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  44. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Really? Is there such a possibility? OK. Thank You for informing us :)
    PS For the company that sells it, that's probably great news.
     
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  45. sdc

    sdc New Member

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    Jasper from Rivet Games did say on the preview stream on Friday night that there would be a Day One patch to sort out any issues.
    Do remember though that it was a Developer build being shown.
    I will buy the route but I reserve judgment on anything until I have installed and played the public release build and the day one patch as been applied.
    I play on Xbox Series S and been playing since Train Sim World come out on console.
     
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  46. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Route looks on Train Simulator so much better and this Route is almost 6 years old from Thompson.
     
  47. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree the distant scenery is better in the old one, but so many other things like track, catenary and the Loco are in much better in my opinion. I also think Chur looks better, though textures could be improved.
     
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  48. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    It’s all about the Mountains and Trees what I mean, and that’s the Main reason how the entire route is looking or not.
    You can have the best Loco 3D Model or Tracks, but when the rest beside the tracks is looking off, then it’s destroy the Präsentation to enjoy driving.
     
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  49. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry, but I still dont see how this correlates back to performance issues, does it really take much effort to put 2D tree textures to fill in the gaps? I mean come on a simple solution can make such a difference to the scenic views!
     
  50. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the “day one patch” will be on day one or day 14 as SEHS was. :|
     
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