In the new LIRR manual, this is how it explains the behavior of the safety systems in case you overspeed: "ATC/ASC Alerts & Alarms If you enter a new signal block and the ADU reduces in speed (for example, going from a 70mph code to a 40mph code), then the following will occur: - An audible alarm will sound in the cab to notify the engineer of the change - The MAS on the ADU will change to its new speed - The standard HUD will also confirm this is an ATC alarm and flash the new speed limit next to it - The train will automatically begin to brake for the new speed limit - You must move the Master Controller into the ‘Coast’ position or any braking position and acknowledge the signal downgrade with the appropriate lever, you must do all this within 7 seconds - Once the train has braked to below the new signal speed, ATC will release the brakes and relinquish control of the train back to the engineer As you become familiar with the route, you will be able to anticipate code change points; being able to “dodge” codes and brake in advance of them will result in a smoother passenger experience, although this won‘t always be possible. ACSES Alerts & Alarms If you are approaching a permanent speed restriction which is lower than the current MAS, ACSES may throw an alarm at you if approaching the new speed restriction too quickly. If this occurs: - An audible alarm will sound in the cab notifiying the engineer they are exceeding the ACSES speed profile, this alarm sounds different to the ATC alarm - The Track Speed on the ADU will change to its new speed - The standard HUD will also confirm this is an ACSES alarm and flash the new speed limit next to it - You must move the Master Controller to at least 40% brake and get below the new speed restriction, once you are below the new speed, acknowledge the alarm with the appropriate lever, you must do all this within 7 seconds" In the safety systems tutorial video by Matt, it seems that the action is almost the opposite - if ATC overspeed, brake until below limit, and if ACSES overspeed 6 and more mph above its limit, it locks throttle and applies brakes until you reset throttle Since I usually dont overspeed, I havent noticed until now how those systems behave in case you overspeed and just acknowledge, and then are maybe slow to respond or such Can someone pls explain it in more clear terms ? thx in advance guys
Manual is mostly/more correct here, if there is disagreement follow the manual. The only things incorrect that I can see with the manual are these: 1. MAS is the red LED number on the ADU and is the track speed enforced by ACSES, i.e. not ATC. ATC speed codes are the green/white/red coloured indications on the vertical bar on the ADU. 2. If you are overspeeding according to ACSES (track speed) the red "OVERSPEED" light will illuminate on the ADU. This means you have now entered the alert curve and need to start braking without delay to not intersect the penalty curve. 3. The "at least 40% brake" is probably mostly correct but it's not really a fixed percentage you need to follow but you just need to stay below the penalty curve. Think of the alert curve as the LZB moving target needle (but it is invisible to you). The trains can achieve (in normal adhesion) about 3.0 mph/s in max brake. 40% of that is 1.2 mph/s which should keep you just ahead of the alert curve, but if you wait too long after the MAS drops/OVERSPEED illuminates you may need more brake to catch up. If you brake well in advance you may only need 10% and so on. Here is where experience and route knowledge comes into play. Main take away: ATC intervention is mostly unavoidable and expected. If ATC brakes for you, you are not doing anything wrong. Just move the master controller to Coast and acknowledge and it will release upon decelerating below the new ATC aspect speed. ACSES is more of a "last resort" and you drive as to not get ACSES interventions. Optimally you should know the route well enough that the OVERSPEED light doesn't even illuminate (but if it does that is "fine", as long as you brake before the penalty curve). But this is more of a real world engineer thing, as long as you start braking quickly after the MAS drops/OVERSPEED illuminates and use at least 40% you will be fine in 99% of the cases.
so... if ATC intervenes, as long as you put throttle to coast, it brakes for you... and if ACSES intervenes, it locks the throttle + applies brakes to prevent you from going dangerously fast (so with ACSES on, it is impossible to go more than 6mph above its speed limit, as you just have to reset the throttle) I mean, I dont drive as fast on purpose, but upon seeing the tutorial video, I wanted to make sure that whatever intervenes, that it is prototypical (as it should happen if you overshoot ATC or ACSES speed limit) and not some overactive way that the game makes it easier for you I pretty much thought it is like those PZB shouts at you, and it is not only to guide you, but it also actively prevents you from doing foolish things... as I said, dunno why, I kinda thought that the game is making it easier for you, when those systems are actually there for that purpose - if you follow them, they GUIDE you, if you dont, they can actively HELP you (softly enforce the stuff) I am just trying to make sure I fully understand + to reassure myself that how these systems are implemented is how they are supposed to work aka if I happen to get penalized, I want to know that it was my fault and not some weird implementation edit: I remember old LIRR had only ATC, but Harlem Line had both ATC and ACSES (US passenger routes like Boston Sprinter and NY Trenton had as well, but in regular trains it was implemented slightly differently, as far as how to regain control after ACSES intervention and such)... how would you compare the implementation of safety systems and how they work in Harlem Line and in new LIRR Commuter? is it implemented better in the new one? edit no.2: my confusion partly arose from how Matt was explaining ACSES and then comparing it to the manual - in the video there was sth like (paraphrase) "If you go 6+ mph over ACSES speed limit, it will stop the train/bring it to a stop" and I was like, how does it stop the train if it makes it virtually impossible to go more than 6mph above the limit, since it cuts throttle and applies brakes that you can then recover from? It even does it directly in the video (locks throttle + brakes)... at which point my brain tangled upon itself and my dear mentalness got triggered
https://www.youtube.com/live/bxc2HyVLblo?si=bjFEz6huIj8BVhou This video is useful if you want to go more in depth with the Signaling
I have it on and am at like 20mins mark (watched the intro before going to work), so I will definitely binge it either today or tomorrow my confusion arose, I am guessing, from the fact that the way I thought those systems worked clashed with how they are explained and how they really work - kinda like when I learned I had thought as a kid that Achilles was all cool and badass, and as an adult I learned that Achilles wasnt really a hero, but a selfish beep and it was Hector who was the true hero of Illiad => I am confusion also, trying to get as clear explanations as is possible, so I can compile them and put them into what I now informally call "TSW OCD manual" for now.. because, y know, sometimes in TSW, for those who dont have as much knowledge, it might be hard to discern what is a feature/correct implementation and what is a bug/incorrect/skewed implementation so, all your contributions and stuff are greatly appreciated
Well, not entirely; the ACSES MAS indication will decline along the curve; it's a digital analog to LZB's and ETCS' moving bug on the speedo.
and if I understand correctly both ATC and ACSES assist you to a degree if you somehow end up speeding, but only if you kind of cooperate (on ATC by moving master controller to coast or braking position + acknowledge, on ACSES by braking enough + acknowledge, or at least resetting throttle)... if you dont, then both stop you, right ?
From my experience in the sim (I have no real world experience), US runs are smoothest when you brake for restriction before you actually arrive at said restriction.
been thinking some more, let me know if I understand well: ATC - kind of like "signals"; helps when ATC speed drops, put throttle to coast and wualla; if you overspeed at the current limit, you brake or else! ACSES - situational restrictions kinda? also prepares you for upcoming ATC reductions... if ACSES speed drops a lot, you have to brake (hard), but if you are under its limit and are about to massively overspeed, it helps you by locking throttle and doing some braking for you until you reset the throttle as for signalling, I am still watching that masterclass video, bit by bit, and afterwards, I might watch some more stuff like, now I am like pfff I want to really learn this so I am calm forevermore
ACSES: fixed speed limits (like signs). Permanent ATC: signal restrictions. Changeable based on traffic and routing
ACSES is an advisory and control system for speed control of your Train. ATC is a protection system to stop the train ending up some place were it should not be. e.g. passing a red signal. Mike.
isnt it the other way around? from the tutorial video I understood that ATC are hard coded speed limits and ACSES depends on track conditions and other things occuring along the way that need to be enforced by certain speed... ATC number usually happened to be higher than ACSES one? edit: so ATC are like signals/aspects and ACSES are more speed limits? maybe I confused ATC with ASC? Now I'm confused again edit no.2: on Harlem it is N, 60, L, M, R and on LIRR it has those 80, 70... if it is N, you follow pretty much ACSES limit, other times it drops to M lets say - but there it doesnt brake for you when you put throttle into coast... and on LIRR, if it drops the ATC thing, it brakes for you? or is it ASC
ACSES stands for Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System, and is there specifically to enforce track speed limits. These are permanent (and in the game, they appear in the HUD) ACS stands for Automatic Cab Signaling, and is designed to inform the engineer what the current signal status is (and in more recent applications, enforce appropriate speeds). Confusingly also called in places ATC. These signals/speed controls tend to change under two primary circumstances: 1) an occupied block (stop aspect) ahead, necessitating a speed reduction; and 2) a switch moved to a diverging route ahead, also requiring a speed reduction through the switch/interlocking.
ATC = signals (it does this by picking up "pulse codes" from the track). The lowest code is 15 mph, so if you are approaching a "Stop" signal, ATC will only prevent you from approach that signal at more than 15 mph, it cannot prevent you from passing the signal. ATC only cares that you are achieving a certain deceleration rate. ACSES = mostly track speed but it also prevents passing a "Stop" signal by setting a zero speed point slightly in front of the stop signal. It works with brake curves (at X distance from some point the speed is enforced to be less than or equal to Y, and Y changes with X).
thanks guys for explanations and above all, patience I am watching Matt's video, and there are actually 2 confusing points one is during the first service he is showing (and it actually shows nicely how ASC works when it drops from 80 to 40, with Matt going approx. 60, it nicely automatically drops to 40) - even though what is happening on screen is ASC managing the speed and him doing just min braking, he is talking about ATC forestall braking and all, which, in conjunction with manual, can confuse not only me... second point is the one I have already mentioned - he is talking / showing ACSES speed limit being breeched... but he is going from under that limit, which means that once you get to +6 mph above, it will lock throttle and apply some brakes automatically... and while this is happening on screen, he is talking how being more than 6mph above limit will bring the train to a stop... so all this + manual, where ACSES stuff is explained differently (since the system behaves differently if you overspeed when accelerating from under its limit and differently if its speed limit drops significantly and you have to act), so again, more confusion lets say ACSES speed is 60, you are going 55 and accelerating, once you get to like 65-66, locks throttle, applies brakes => helps you, actively prevents major overspeeding, which is nice (and I guess this is prototypical?)... but if your ACSES speed is 60, you are going 55, and it DROPS to 40, THEN you have to take action or it stops the train
jackpot guys, jackpot an actual document from SIEMENS who apparently had been the ones who implemented ACSES onto NEC trains... I know that in LIRR ACSES is implemented a bit differently, BUT this pdf very nicely explains what ACSES is, different territories in which it operates or is disabled, even goes into details like how it is supposed to enforce its stuff, including penalty brakes: "However, if the operator does not slow the train down and he exceeds the braking curve, penalty brakes are immediately applied. This penalty application is released once speed is at or below the civil speed. This is called a “Running Release”."
I see those three yellow boxes, those look like ACSES transponders, but what are those grey-white ones? I am trying to learn more about the equipment, so I can anticipate changes on Harlem Line better thx
Those are PTC transponders. (Exactly what LIRR has in real life but absent from the game). Also, in game, the train only responds to the larger black cab signal transponder boxes (Harlem line).
so yellow thingies give you ACSES data, and silverish ones give you ATC? on Harlem that is on Trenton/Boston those seem to give both
