I hope Alan and the team don't mind me posting this message but this route upgrade of the original DTG GEML route has now been released and available to ATS subscribers. Words cannot do justice to what a BRILLIANT piece of work this is, absolutely stunning level of detail and immersion throughout from the scenery to OHLE and stations. It breathes new life into a key UK route. Well done and thank you from me to Matt and the team at ATS! If you don't have an ATS subscription yet and are able to buy one - please do it, this route upgrade alone is worth the money in my personal opinion - it's easily payware standard and there are also further phases planned. https://alanthomsonsim.com/premium-content/
It is absolutely brilliant. I bought the original DTG version and it was a complete waste of money. The most unstable route that I own. I haven’t even managed to complete a single scenario on it. Not only is this stable, it performs better and looks way better. So finally it’s worth having the route. My subscription has already paid for itself this year in discounts for other stuff so this is just a nice bonus value for me. Very happy with it. Pretty sure there will be quite a few scenarios showing up for this soon plus there is still the Flirt to come.
Wow with the full AP set (Tracks, Signals, Weather) and OHE pack - a great competition to TSW4 AND the track is longer! The Future of TSW - Reworked Routes. Glad I subscribe to ATS
For balance I picked up the old DTG route in a sale and its still a favourite of mine along with the withdrawn workshop extension to Norwich. No stability problems but I do just run custom QDs rather than default scenarios. More a third rail fan so with the Southeastern network extension release I'm afraid its a no for me on the subscription for now. Mind you I also enjoy content like the original DTG London to Bedford route and the Leicester workshop extension so this would probably be too sophisticated for my simple tastes anyway. Enjoy it guys, sorry for being mildly positive about old DTG and workshop content as I'm sure that's frowned upon in the upper echelons of the community but TSC is a broad if somewhat niche church with hopefully room for many different viewpoints and ways of enjoyment.
That's the nice thing, you can make TSC like you need it. I think the original GEML is a great route on its own, the AP Veg EP already made a huge impact on its appearance, and as I dislike the ATS subscription model, I'll give the update a miss.
Can you only run ATS subscription routes while you have a subscription? Or once they are downloaded can you keep them in perpetuity?
You can keep them, but I think that if there are any updates you need an active sub to download the update.
I have just watched a video about the route on Youtube and it looks very nice. However, it mentions in the video that there are payware requirements for this route. If you don't have the requirements then you might find that you have to pay a lot more than the subscription fee to get the route to work. Sorry to sound negative but I think this should be pointed out. I think I have all UK payware routes but I won't be subscribing because I'm quite happy with the original. Plus I have the JT Harwich extension and the Norwich to Liverpool Street route, which I don't think the ATS route covers.
That's an expensive revamp (32.99 subscription) Yeah I know there are other things to download with a sub, but a lot of TSC players have taken an ATS sub out in the past and have already downloaded the sub stuff. Btw, phase 2 will be payware. Your 32.99 subscription will not cover phase 2, you'll have to pay for it. Wow, talk about milking it. Just like what Peter said above 'I would have preferred it to be Payware instead of a Subscription.'
The requirements are relatively light and most of the routes needed people will already have and can be bought for a small amount or in a sale. Your subscription will also enable you to have new future products launched by the team during your subscription period and is helping to improve, extend and develop the quality of the game. For me it's a no brainer and worth every penny for the quality of the product provided.
Something it does not seem to say on the ATS page is what other Payware, apart from GEML, is required. It would be nice to know what the total cost to me this route would be as I don't own any ATS payware. Peter
The requirements Mandatory for the route are as follows: From Dovetail Games: Great Eastern Mainline: London-Ipswich Route Portsmouth Direct Line: London Waterloo-Portsmouth Route Fife Circle Line: Edinburgh-Dunfermline Route Southwestern Mainline: Southampton-Bournemouth Route Woodhead Electric Railway in Blue Route East Coast Mainline: London-Peterborough Route From Alan Thomson Simulation: Overhead Line Electrification Pack These requirements listed below are recommended but not a mandatory for the route: From Armstrong Powerhouse: Signal Enhancement Pack Track Enhancement Pack A brief note in regards to the Vegetation Pack from Armstrong Powerhouse – This route was designed not to use it and therefore no support can be given if this pack is used in conjunction with this upgrade.
how exactly did you envisage it would work? it will be made from scratch and no doubt take a vast number of man hours that I can't comprehend.
I saw Alan's stream the other night and I think they have done good job with it. Not to mention the upcoming FLIRTs will have scenarios on this. I do have all of the requirements except Woodhead line but from what they have said it is not a major issue (I'll grab woodhead line on next steam sale). My subscription expired last year but this & FLIRTs I might re-subscribe for another year. Might as well also get updates to WCML missing link and ECML merge with it.
Hoping they will someday complete the WCML Glasgow to London. Most of the heavy lifting has already been done by ATS
I think they (ATS) are already working on WCML merge with missing link and WCML south which also now includes Northampton loop. So you could in theory drive from Euston to Preston in one go. I don't know if they would merge anything north of Preston as in reality drivers would swap at Preston.
As it's not compatible with APVegEP, besure to clean the RSC\GEML folder before installation (deleting the "Scenery" folder specifically will remove the veg update, so GEMLAssets.ap contents will be used again.)
It's not that it's not compatible, just that it hasn't been built with it in mind. Works and looks just fine with the Veg EP installed.
My problem with this kind of subscription and ATS practice: - it´s called Phase 1, so it was to assume that there will be minimum one further phase. But when it will be planned to released is unknown. Could be in 1-3 month (dont think it will be), or could in >1 year, meaning you would need a re-sub if you want Phase 1 now. This has something like streaming portals (Netflix and so on), when releasing new series. Often episodes are released one per week. By often roundabout 10 episodes it means you need 3 month of subscription to watch the whole series if you want to see it instant (so its better to wait until full released and then Sub/buy). - but now I read that Phase 2 will be payware? So it means someone has to pay definitively 2 times. Ok, but right now, (and as no-subcriber) I couldn´t see anywhere on ATS what their planes are with that route. And when a Phase 2 will be payware what that means? That we need for a payware a subware? Thats definitiv a NoGo fo me! - looking at past times: personally I am only interested in routes and no scenarios. And as I know, there was not very much new routes on ATS (Sub/Payware). I can remember some years ago they had shown what project are planned - what was to be interpreted, that these would be the ones who would be released in 1 year (perhaps 2). One announced project until now not released. Ok, could be perhaps paused, abannoned, whatever, but here too - no info. - Next thing: intransparency. The now actuall revamped route - as no-subscripter you could nothing see what you get. No information what they changed, no information what is needed - nothing. Thanks to ade2022 to post it here Why they can not give that information for ALL on their product page? Is this a secret? Forgotten? Didn´t want it? - Yes, with a subscription someone can get additional discount on other routes. But here: how many? Without sub you cannot see it! Yes they write "up to xx%" - but "UP TO". So up to 50% means, could be 50% but also 5%. If someone has already most intersting stuff, it may be not worth to buy a sub to get a discount for one product. The opposite can be the case, you pay more than without Sub. For some time I have seen somewhere a list with an example: OHLE + Camb.-Pet. + Class185 + ChatMoss + KingsCross + Sub: ~104bugs. without Sub: ~117 bugs => here you make a good deal with a Sub. Only Class 185 + ChatMoss + Abo: ~70 bugs. Without Sub: 54 bugs => you pay more than needed with a Sub [and again, don´t know how many scenarios there are, but I personally not interested in them. May be perhaps for other a better deal) - and then the Installer: the last times I have to use them I have to say: I dont like the ATS installer. It had made for me too often problems in the past. And I am not a friend of that kind of installer that download everytime the stuff from the internet instead user download the complete file one time and can backup it. And if you need to reinstall something and your sub is expired you have to re-sub for an reinstallation. Yes, I can understand they want some money. That they want something for their indeed good work. But by this time all this has for me something where a german saying fits good: "Das hat ein Geschmäckle" (1:1 translation: this has a flavor). I too would prefer regular buying. A sub may be a good thing if stuff is regulary produced and released - perhaps for scenarios. But for routes..... NO
Each to their own. Keep your money. I am happy to subscribe as I still believe in TSC and want to help authors generate new routes where possible. Have fun with the shorter TSW routes with the very repetitive timetables and the treasure hunt for eye candy (make sure you don't get run over by a train whilst running across the track to fix a fence). I personally am sitting with 63 DLCs for TSW and never play them. TSC has too much variety to turn away from and ATS has plenty of content to keep my attention well into retirement! Respectfully
There's many other places. Just downloaded the huge Shreveport route from trainsimcommunity. I don't like ATS for the exact given reasons above, and can live without that extra route overhaul (having more than 300 routes) Nevertheless, announcement is appreciated. Enjoy the route!
Yes just downloaded Shreveport. Rails were missing. Need to see what I missed on the download. One of these days I would like to find time to recreate one of the Amtrak routes. Taking the Empire Builder up to Fairbanks, Alaska IRL later on this year!
kilt46 could not agree more with everything you said. I´m a fan of ATS and I think it´s a shame many of "oldschool members" on here don´t seem to like them that much. I´m really glad they are doing these route upgrades now! Allthough the German community has been doing them for free over the years, I´m willing to pay for high quality route upgrades.
I am a subscriber, but I don’t particularly like the subscription model. It relies on a lot of trust that enough stuff I want will come out as subware or payware with a big enough discount, to make the sub worthwhile. This past year, I definitely got value out of it. There was a subscriber offer for the 185 and also the Goldstar Tamper at around the same time, so i decided to join up for a year. Next year I don’t know. I can always wait until something comes out that I really want as it doesn’t auto renew. For now I’m happy. GEMMA is a fantastic route IF you have the dependencies. Being as started back with Railworks 2 back in 2009, that usually isn’t a problem for me. Totally see other people’s points of view and for the most part, I agree. That doesn’t detract from a really nice route upgrade though.
Just because somebody does not like the ATS Subscription method does not make them an "oldschool member". The Quality of ATS Routes and add-ons is great - no complaints from me. And if they were to sell some of their Add-Ons - like every other provider in the game - I would buy them straight away. But instead you have to have a Subscription which then allows you to buy the routes and the add-ons required for those routes. It would be nice if some of the routes shown on ATS actually got finished. Given up on the GW Electrified route every being done.
Most of us will be paying subscriptions for things. Right now, I'm paying monthly for internet and Windows 11 in order to type this here message and my ATS subscription is about 5% of those costs. I have no problem with third party developers trying to earn a living out of what they do. However, a lot of people are struggling to pay bills and put food on the table, so I really empathise with those who can't afford £32 a year and feel left out. I do wish ATS could do a "Gift a subscription scheme" for, say, under 21s and those who are out of work for any number of reasons.
I was just going to make this point ... so members on here don´t have netflix, amazon, a mobile phone contract? Gas, electricity and renting a apartment is also a "subscription model".
No Netflix. Amazon is no subscription, you only pay what you purchase. Mobile Phone is a constantly used service, as gas, electricity and rent. That's a bad comparison, and why try to change people's minds? I won't pay alone for having the possibility to buy something - that's like having to pay a monthly fee to be able to visit a store. Or pay a monthly fee for using Steam? No way. The logic behind a subscription is you will be under a certain pressure to regularly buy stuff, so the subscription is justified. I don't like that. Apart from that I'm stuffed with content - and there's many other sources than ATS, so I won't miss the stuff on there. Also the subscription model could favor a business strategy of selling products needing regular updates - only if you renew your subscription - makes it paid updates then. No. Steam does it right, other 3rd partys have webshops, or sites like trainsimcommunity that host stuff for free.
My personal opinion is that the ATS subscription is good value, especially in the first year with the merged routes, scenarios and discounts off payware. Additionally the quality of their work is brilliant - just look at the the standard of the upgraded GEMMA line. Finally they are a group of people who genuinely love TSC working really hard to make it the best game it can be so I am more than happy to pay for this privilege. I recognise that not everyone is lucky enough to afford to do the same but if you can it's well worth it in my opinion.
Interesting DLC! Feels like an AP production. Lots of functionality in the cab. More info will be posted here: https://sites.google.com/view/trainsimulatorcontent/uk-trains/class-745
Well they find enough ways to make people dislike them. They've had the last penny they'll ever get from me.
Apparently, the Bearded One Who Cannot Be Named, has made more enemies by forcing the developer of the 745 to go to court over supposedly breaches of contract. The developer won the case against ATS on got all charges dismissed. Nonetheless, the 745 will be his last project for ATS. One wonders how the other developers who do 'contract work' for AT feel about their master and his contracts, conditions and dealings with them ... With the security and privacy matters concerning the compulsory ATS installer still unresolved AFAIK, it's up to you to (still) want to deal with ATS. I for one, don't want to have anything to do with this ATS and his little business.
It is indeed up to each of us to decide whether we want to deal with ATS. The subscription model is optional of course, ATS costs me about £3 per month which, as a homeowner and payer of all the bills, is the cheapest monthly cost I have. So it's for each of us to decide. I've bought the Class 745 and it's the most complex "study level" train I've ever owned. It is superb and I can recommend it. But nobody is forced to buy it and I certainly have sympathy for those who can't afford it because of inflation and the cost of living crisis. Cheaper DLC is available. Alan, (there, I named him) explained the price point in his Twitch Stream last night for anyone who is interested. Note - You don't get "Charges" in a civil court case and nobody is "forced" to take legal action in that court circuit. Civil Courts are for alleged breaches of contract and remedies for financial damages caused by another party. Let's say for instance someone on here made an allegation against ATS (for example) that could cause reputational damage then ATS could seek financial remedies through the Civil Courts. The appellant sets out their allegations against the defendant with evidence and the defendant can chose to fight the case or seek to settle out of court. There are no "charges".
Incidentally, I've not been able to find a copy of the judgement in the "Unnamed developer v ATS" case online, so if anyone has a link DM me as I'd be interested to have a read.
I assume the developer in question is not AND games as they were on the stream last night talking about doing the 755.
I was very surprised at the price especially as I remember certain people moaning about how much Armstrongs prices are. I have not subscribed to Ats for a couple of years now as to me the website has almost been dead. From his team they released a couple of brilliant routes i subscribed but it's been dead they have not out out anything in ages, and to be frank a subscription is a pointless purchase as you don't know what's coming up. To be honest I thought they had pulled back on development for classic and was going all in on tsw? Even if I got a subscription now to get this new route I am not sure what else is in the pipeline as they never say much, unless you watch his streams but I don't have the time to watch them.
I originally subscribed on the basis that it was a start-up business and just like all new companies, investment and a regular cashflow are needed before (hopefully) your early investment pays off. I'm pleased with their progress and, as I expected, their releases have really stepped-up to the point that the subscription now pays for itself twice over. The Subscription only releases have been disappointing but they're aware of that and it's probably why the updated GEML is sub only at the moment until it's released as a payware route when it gets to Norwich. They've got a lot of future TSC releases in the pipeline and just one for TSW ATM.
No thank you on subscription. Put it on Steam either through Marketplace or as an official DTG associate and I might buy in the normal way.
How far beyond Ipswich does GEMMA go? I was thinking this release went to Norwich Release it as normal Payware the same as Just Trains and I would look again.
This is phase one so just the original GEML route but Matt's working on the extension to Norwich for phase two. Interestingly he said on the ATS stream last night that he's looking into the possibility of adding further branches. Some tantilising options there, Clacton/Southend Vic/Southminster and the beautiful Sudbury branch.
I need to be up front. I would much prefer to spend monies on TSC DLCs than TSW. I have spent too much on TSW (63 DLCs) and NEVER use it. I have been running through all of my Scenarios by Train Class and compared doing the same with TSW (Class 66 scenarios on TSC versus Class 66 Timetables). TSC is so much more interesting. I personally hope to see ATS and AP provide more TSC content. Each to their own. Respectfully
Offset by the bigger potential buyer pool I would have thought. If there TSW project isn't vapourware then under current DTG business practice, it has to be sold through Steam. And given the price of a TSC route DLC is around £25 to £30 then this is also coming in more expensive. I mean, I have the original GEML installed, it's a nice route but only did a couple of runs. Not worth forking out that amount just for an upgrade.
