Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Jul 21, 2021.
I think the stream will be an interesting one tonight to manage.
Aargh what a shame, DTG are taking shortcuts again much to the chagrin of the railfans and customers. For sure they have some passionate and talented individuals on board, but the bean counters once again have the last say. Totally in agreement with the previous posts, if the route can’t be done on time, then MAKE MORE TIME!! You’ve already put the price up, so don’t insult us and say it would be over budget. Come on guys please get your act together and make the content your customers want.
It's looking like quite possibly their largest negative response since the release of TSW. But I hope we, as a community, can try and just keep our heads on a bit and realise that the world won't implode tonight and that things could possibly still change. We should try and still be respectful no matter how disappointed and frustrated we are. No individual is to blame, so I'm hoping tonight there is no abuse or personal insults towards the CMs, devs or anyone and I hope there's a zero tolerance approach to such things as a company. We can be upset and frustrated but resulting to abuse and insults won't get us anywhere. I reckon this will be another learning curve for them and things will change going forward.
I know it counts for nothing, but I walked away from both TS and TSW a number of months ago. I just can’t be bothered with the amateurish nonsense anymore. This must be my first post on these forums since the Spring although I have dipped in and out to see what’s going on. Obviously it seems the merry-go-round is still spinning in exactly the same way.
Only when I started playing other games on the PC did I realise just how technically poor TSW is in almost every respect. I bought Cathcart ‘just to see’ as it’s the sort of thing that still interests me and was dismayed at the terrible texturing (yet again), the straight-up broken lighting, the worst passengers in the game to date, the repetitive nature of the gameplay, the dead feeling of the world etc. All the same old problems are there in abundance so it’s on me that I’d hoped to see some improvement.
This announcement comes as no surprise to be honest but there is maybe some merit in it IMHO. I started a poll a few months ago based around the fact that I felt the DLC were perhaps too cheap, and asked the philosophical question that if DTG raised the price would it allow more polished content - we were told an emphatic ‘no’. Amazing how quickly that’s turned around is it not? That said, I certainly wasn’t expecting the price rise to accompany the cutting back of already announced routes, the point about raising the price was to see improvements!!
What’s really interesting to me is that despite DTG clearly shooting themselves in the foot all over again (it’s becoming a bit of an annual occurrence) no one seems to be asking what ‘core’ improvements this annual update is bringing.
As it stands I could still be tempted to buy DLC in the future but if, and only if, this annual update brings significant improvements to the core of the game. The sound, the lighting, the shadows, the draw distance, the overall texture quality and rendering. The time for excuses on this front has long since passed, and if ‘Rush Hour’ fails to deliver this then I think I’ll just call it quits and walk away for good.
It goes without saying that what Asobo have done with FS2020 in the 12 months since it’s release, and what we’re expecting to see in less than a weeks time with their massive update, smashes what DTG have achieved with TSW in the nearly 5 years since it first appeared. For the uninitiated that includes significant monthly updates with free content and improvements, big improvements to the SDK, VR support, DX12 integration, a next-gen console release (that will run at 4K Ultra and 30fps) and what amounts to significant changes to the engine that seem like they will deliver even better visuals with anything between a 30-50fps improvement on the PC. All in 12 months. That’s on DX11 too (same as TSW). The DX12 move is to follow in a short while.
So I genuinely cannot be bothered with TSW anymore. I’ve spent £1000’s on TS and TSW, was active in the community, had a reasonable YouTube channel devoted to Train Sim and made a number of mods for the game(s). I really now feel it was a complete waste of time and money because the game is still beset by all the same problems it had the day it was released, both technical and non-technical (as aptly demonstrated by this latest shambles).
And yet we keep coming back for more, because it’s basically all we have. They have little competition on PC and none at all on console. We live eternally in hope that DTG sort themselves out and buck up their game. Still missing for example, basic wagon/coach audio after 5 years of development, trains should be noisy!
To be fair Asobo will likely have a massive budget compared to DTG, but they have also been the target of much criticism since the release of MSFS, although they now seem to be on the right track (probably by listening to their customers ).
The Asobo comment is fair to some extent, but then I believe their team isn’t massively bigger than DTG’s and they have achieved that in 12 months as opposed to 5 years. One developer is shooting for the stars whilst the other is content to pretend it’s 15 years ago. I should add that I spent roughly £100 on FS2020. I reckon I’ve spent not far off 5 times that on TSW, maybe even more. I daren't add it up as it would be too depressing.
FS2020 has it’s problems sure, but then it’s a massively complex piece of software that is right at the cutting edge of what modern PC’s can do. They are very clearly pushing its development hard and are constantly bringing improvements. If this next update delivers on what’s being trailed then it will be massive. They also acknowledge they can’t do it all on their own and see the community as integral to the development of the game. Their content is sold alongside 3rd party content in game as well as the vast array of 3rd party content that can be bought elsewhere and very easily be added to the game. Additionally, a significant amount of the freeware content that is available is genuinely mind-blowing. Very sadly this is something we will never see with TSW, so we’re stuck with this glacial development that doesn’t allow the game to grow and develop organically. I can’t believe that they didn’t do their due diligence on UE4 with a bit more er, due diligence, and realise that a publicly available editor was a non-starter.
To highlight the juxtaposition between TSW and FS2020 development, it is literally unbelievable that DTG still haven’t released the PIS boards for East Coastway, giving us some blah about release windows and download size. What an absolute crock of ****. They self-impose meaningless deadlines that hamper their own products and have then had to create a team to go back and fix the bugs and bits that just don’t work correctly. Unbelievably that team then don’t get given sufficient time so end up releasing unfinished and broken fixes to the original broken products. It’s almost like they’re trolling their customers…just constantly seeing how far they can push people before they snap and walk away.
Anyway, I’m out. Back to better things.
i would be very angry there are other routes people want, very selfish to want everyone to lose out by having everything delayed by months just so a few people get something they want
why is it sad we get 3 routes for cheap its a good thing
13% is less than 40%, if i give you 13% of a steak then tou have les than if i gave you 40% of a steak, 27%less
You can have the british an US stuff on the Rush Hour the normal release dates. And I am happy for you if this is what you like and the Brighton Route and The NEC looks great. But the Dresden Route is cut down and lose the biggest feature the Network with the branch Lines and that need to be criticize. And I think the Route needs to be delayed, Understand that this is for many people important who realy like to drive german routes.
The forums are practically unanimous in wanting this delay. It's only selfish if it's a minority, but it is a massive majority
(Unanimous = In total agreement)
Not to the point, we are losing what makes the Dresden route alive, have variety and also make it a real rush hour route, and takes away what everyone was looking forward to it for - you can see it on these forums.
Missing the point.
If I take away 40% you only have 60%
If I take away 13% you still have 87% left.
DTG are taking away these branches.
Tip: Over-protecting (or over-bashing in another minorities case) DTG is never a good move. Especially when you are just trying to bull**** you/there way out of this.
Personally, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to complete the work. I am ready to buy it DLC separately
from the Chach Peak package. I'm even willing to pay a big price for it. I ask DTG to make us a holiday.
The announcement of 3 large routes in one issue of "Hour PIK" was a mistake. It was necessary to advertise one good passenger route with a demonstration of new possibilities. The rest of the routes should be released by separate DLCs with support for new functions.
Why only the germen dresden Route is cut? Why not cut the other routes?
Well I don't think it's neccesarily because DTG likes German players less (although this does make them feel like it), it's just that it had branches to be cut, while the other routes (NEC does still have a branch I belive) don't have that much branches to be removed.
How is it a good thing that they want us to pay more for less? Please elaborate.
I think they are in the "Protect DTG even if they are wrong" camp. Or a troll. Let them be.
The question is: Do you want this issue to be resolved? Yes or no?
If you want it to be resolved quickly and with the utmost respect given to the community in the process, throwing shade at DTG is not going to help.
Morality has nothing to do with it. It's called basic respect and not looking like a tool. DTG understands that people are angry over this.
It doesn't make any sense. SO they are staggering the routes release but they still cut the branch lines. Some of these decisions make zero sense to me.
From my standpoint the song thing appeared to be humour/sarcasm and nothing more. Sure, it's never acceptable to be offensive and i'm sure that if those 'lyrics' were composed with Sex Pistols-esque levels of hatred then the powers that be would have swooped in sharpish. That never happened so it's fair to assume that user intervention (mountains....mole hills, you know the drill) was not required on this occasion.
But anyhows, just to nip this in the bud.... I wasn't condoning the 'offensive' posting, I was merely pointing out the irony of (part of) what you were saying.
I only see one solution
1) Spend two routes DLC Rush Hours now for 10 euros less
2) Releasing BRD in the fall in full version as a full-fledged DLC which will provide more funding to complete this tour
Well I just wish they had decided to build the Meißen branch instead of the Großenheim one. It's much more interesting and would make
S-Bahn services actually playable. But it is what it is I guess.
Yeah, but the airport branch is really important for the BR 143, which otherwise only has 3-4 stops (not sure if S2 stops at Freiberger Straße). I also think the underground station is really interesting.
On the other hand, I think the Meißen branch would offer the fullest gameplay experience, with it completing one end of the longer S1 line.
So both are good, and both are better than the Großenhain branch. I just wish I didn't have to choose .
As many of you im completely disappointed about the branches Bering cut of of Dresden-Riesa. My Home is about 300m (!) away from Dresden Neustadt Station, so I was stoked to see my homeroute coming to TSW!
Nevermind after promising facts about the route and the possibilitys we seemed to get, I had the feel that this route could become one of the DTG finest. However, after announcing the price being pushed upwards (wich I can somehow understand) and then the route being cut (23km lost) I am really not sure if I want to get it. I can understand that DTG want to bring good quality and therefore the time isn't just there. But is it worth rushing it ? As DTG expect us to get the Season Ticket, the route would be included anyway, also the routes don't come as a pack but route after route. TBH DTG, you should consider postpone Dresden-Riesa and do it proper ! I really feel like it would be the correct move (and looking at the polls, most of the other Players seem to agree on that).
Just wanted to point out that it isn’t every day that a thread gets 100 likes.
This just shows how much the community is angered about this issue.
I added my like to this post and for DTG they just broke their promise of making new routes longer than the previous one. The original plan for Riesa-Dresden is 105 km 65 mi now 55-90 km 35-55 mi length just like train sim 21 version. The correct way for DTG to do this is make the original plan of 105 km then surpass Riesa-Dresden with another proposed longer than Riesa-Dresden
Can someone confirm whether the 2 branches that were cut were actually announced by DTG or were only revealed by the leak?
If the latter case is what happened then I feel like it is a bit unfair to bash DTG for something that they planned internally but then during the development decided to cut and never intended to announce to the community.
The two branches were listed on the article posted after the leak, and were on the steam store page for a long time. They were definetely part of the official and public announcement.
Sure. On Steam, and in a couple of DTG articles.
If you look at the Building Riesa Dresden article, you can even see the Meißen stations listed in (the screenshot of) the timetable.
Unfortunately, nothing will happen. This happened twice before since I have been part of the community. One was the BR 101 Cab Car for RRO and the other one was the high entry DOSTOS in HHL. They didn't change their tune then, they are not going to do it now. They know people will keep buying as they don't have major competitors so essentially a monopoly at this point. This is frustrating because TSW2 is good for casual train sim people like me. Sam keeps saying that this is a hobby where you are collecting and driving trains digitally, but I don't know many hobbyists who are not particular about the stuff they collect. And with decisions like this, they keep alienating people further. I hope they can reevaluate before someone else puts out a top notch product and the community flocks there.
Honestly, i don't think it even needs a new competitor. It hurts me a lot to take this step, but I will not spend more money on unfinished TSW stuff until I see a clear change in attitude and quality coming from DTG. There are so many other things I can spend my budget on.
Same. I'm not planning on buying the season ticket, or any of the individual routes. Cathcart showed that they could do a beautifully detailed route, with a beautifully detailed train, and really good sounds.
The update to 4.26, and some of the new features it brings (like substantially better lighting and distant field shadows) is a very promising start. But they need to work on maintaining a consistently high quality. If they can do that, I'd even be willing to buy more routes at full price, instead of waiting for 30-35% off as I have done for a lot of the DLC I've bought (except Cathcart -- I very gladly preordered that one because they really did a genuinely great job).
Yeah, that's... not good.
On one side I want to cut them some slack because they are developing 3 routes at the same time, but on the other hand it's a big "self own" since you really shouldn't announce features that were so early in production and on such tentative ground that you just a few weeks after have to cut because of too little time/feature creep.
And if they were already unsure of if they would manage to finish the two branches in time for release, at the time they announced the route then they should've made a choice right then and there, or at least kept that part under wraps.
Maybe the reception to Rush Hour would've been more lukewarm if only the A-B and the one remaining branch was announced but at least you wouldn't have a s*** storm on your hands.
What I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure that I am on board with all of the opinions in this thread, especially the one that not including these branches were a mistake. But I definitely think DTG made a mistake in how the communication was handled and ultimately it was an unforced error.
That communication bit is key. The branches originally being included showed ambition, which is good to see. I understand there are reasons for them to be cut, and that the devs aren't happy with it either. However, it was communicated poorly.
I really think that if DTG showed a lot more openness, I would be less upset. Be clear about what's being changed, but also about why, take us through the decision making process, and then we might see that we would also (have to) make the same decisions, even though we wouldn't be happy with it.
However, that's asking a lot. I don't know of a company that's so open about it's internal decision making, and the factors that play a role.
We'll see, but I definetely don't think planning to include the branches was wrong. Even the fact that it was announced early wasn't a problem, but the certainty with which they said it was coming is where the issue is. If they would have said 'we'd like to do this, but look forward to future announcements as the scope is currently not set precisely.' I certainly would have been more understanding and cautious with my expectations.
jolojonasgames I might be wrong in my interpretation of the above but I think Sam, Matt and JD boxed a lot of this of and gave (not a full reason) but the bulk thereof the rationale behind the changes on their stream the other week.
Yes, and that massively helped, bit two days passed before that, two days in which the community was 'quite active'.
And the initial communication wasn't clear, the branches just got silently taken out of the FAQ.
It would be better to do such a stream immediately, and state very clearly that the branches are gone and why. However, I do think that they learnt from this, so an exact repeat of this time won't happen I feel.
I have a feeling that the announcement was premature- DTG found their hand forced when somebody inadvertently let out that splash screen graphic, and they thought they had to jump out ahead of the public-information curve well before they had planned to make the announcement.
However, if that is true, then the announcement should have been vaguer. Something like "Boston, Brighton and Dresden. Stay tuned for details."
I really don't think that leak wasn't the planned announcement. Why would they already have that article ready, and one click away from publishing? We know from what Sam said on streams that articles are usually not written that long in advance (because he has every now and then how he wrote the roadmap just the other weekend, or how the article on spirit of steam was only finished days before). I think they fully intended on publishing that information that week, otherwise they would have said so in the q&a stream just after the cutting of branches was announced.
(Sorry for a bit late answer, had some vacation time and seriously wasn't in the mood for forums )
As for the announcement - it was already planned for the date it came out, the leak came only about 4 days before that. So I firmly believe that changed nothing, they would've announced the same thing.
IIRC, the branches were first mentioned in the Steam description, so the leak didn't force their hand there (I might be wrong on this one though)
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