Bargteheide Brakes Tales [hhl]

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by breblimator, May 19, 2021.

  1. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Going eastbound. Just before Bargteheide we have a nice speed reductions gymnastic:

    160 >(A)> 90 or 80 ** >(B)> ...

    ** if 1000Hz active / depends with what speed we hit the magnet protecting "distant [90] indicator"

    I am puzzled with the (B) part. Let's suppose, 1000Hz lit, so we reduce our speed below 80.
    After a while, 1000Hz is OFF and we can accelerate - the signal ahead is Clear (easily spotted near the station exit).

    Sometimes, it happens a penalty braking here (my speed is below 90). Theoretically, we didn't travel more than 1250 m still but there is no reason for any magnet to be active at this moment (Clear ahead). I think this is somehow related to PZB, because I don't remember this happened when going slow enough not to be traped by the first 1000Hz. I am puzzled :)

    Just thinking \o/
     
  2. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    The moment the 1000hz light goes off doesnt mean that you are now clear and out of speed monitoring. As long as the 85/70/55 light is flashing, the corresponding value is the maximum allowed speed. Going above these are a penalty brake. If 85 flashing, then Vmax is 85 kmh, 70 is Vmax 70 and 55 is Vmax 55. Important: You need to be at least 1 kmh below these speeds. Hitting 85/70/55 kmh is a penalty brake. AS long as these lights are flashing, your speed is monitored.

    The 1000hz light going off means only 1 thing: If the next distant signal (not main signal!) is clear or showing green/yellow, then you can push PZB Frei/release and you are free to get back to track speed.
     
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  3. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    It happens sporadically and very suddenly, but I like your theory.
    I try to look at the speedometer every time - it could be around 85 ~ 86. Thanks! I will research the topic in this respect \o/
     
  4. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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  5. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I mean this theory: I am exceeding 84 kph when going into penalty :)
    PS nice training materials!
     
  6. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Ah ok. I personally recommend a threshold of 5 kmh below the monitored speed ;)
     
  7. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Yes, you are right. I know how to avoid it, but I was very curious about the theoretical side of the issue, I also wanted to rule out a bug, since Adam is fixing it (HHL PZB) now. Many thanks for the extensive explanations :)
     
  8. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    When the yellow 1000Hz light goes OFF (and the next signal is clear) you can press "PZB release" and increase your speed. If you do not press the "PZB release" button and increase your speed above the limit you will still get the emergency brake application.

    PS: The usual distance between light signals is 1 Km (if it is less, the previous signal usually has a white light to let you know the next signal is closer than usual). What this means is that if you do not press the "PZB release" button you will have passed the next signal long before the train travels the 1250m needed for the monitoring to stop on its own (this is when the blue light with the number stops blinking).
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
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  9. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I am 99% sure it is about "ghost" monitoring (non-flashing 85, without 1000Hz lit) and... about beauty! :D

    I hardly ever use the HUD. It's not even about realism - TSW looks better without it. I've been enjoying HHL recently using external cameras. The quality of the scenery is special here. I simulated a similar situation approaching Lübeck. I was in the cab. All OK. Hmm. I turned on the HUD - no monitoring. I've already reported a topic related to LZB in the context of HUD somewhere. Something has gone wrong recently. Aadaam, where are You :)

    PS By only using the HUD you can fall into the "trap" there - although you can just be competent and follow the rules after 1000Hz goes out. Me? I was in the toilet then! :D

    EDIT I also learned on this occasion some very interesting things from you - thanks, gentlemen \o/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2021
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  10. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    'depends with what speed we hit the magnet protecting "distant [90] indicator"'

    I know that if I'm approaching a speed reduction below 100 km/h while traveling at above 100 km/h I can suspect the 1000 Hz magnet to be active but I don't actually know the detailed "algorithm" here.

    When does PZB activate for a Lf6 sign (or signal with speed warning) depending on lower speed and current speed? What is the dependence?
     
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  11. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    So if you are below 95 kmh at hitting a magnet-protected 90 kmh speed limit indication sign, the 1000hz isnt active but that depends on the route.
     
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  12. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Check out the red link in my signature. It has all the information you need.
     
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  13. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!
     
  14. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    No problem :D
     
  15. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    It’s a quite a tight one that reduction into Bargteheide, caught me out the first time! Didn’t make it to 85 in 23 seconds!
     
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  16. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    Sorry to jump onto this thread but I got a Zwangsbremsung twice today going eactwards into Bargteheide at that exact spot and I am wondering what I was missing..

    I saw the Lf6 showing "9" and reduced my speed accordingly in time. When I passed the Lf7 (not surprisingly) also showing "9", my speed was lower than 90 but above 85 km/h. Just when I passed the Lf7, I got the emergency braking.

    My thoughts as a layman were that, of course I had to reduce my speed to below 90 km/h. In terms of PZB and emergency braking, however, I was under the impression that I would only be stopped if my speed was above 105 km/h (as these are the rules for Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitte). So I was a bit puzzled. So where does the 85 km/h monitoring come from? :|

    What am I missing here? Have I repeatedly overlooked a second speed reduction or am I interpreting the rules wrongly?
     
  17. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    If the 1000hz light is flashing up next to the 85, your max speed needs to be reduced below 85 regardless what the track speed is. 85,70 and 55 are max speeds under 1000hz which gets you a Zwangsbremsung when you are above these max speeds.
     
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  18. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Probably this is about the braking curve. Try to be more proactive \o/
     
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  19. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    Yes, the 1000hz light is in fact flashing. So I learned something new today. Thank you both! :)

    Now I'm beginning to understand. The fact that I'm faster than 105 km/h (90 km/h+15km/h) at the Lf6 triggers the 1000hz magnet, and if that is the case I have to keep below 85 km/h within 23 seconds (PZB mode O) regardless of what was indicated on the Lf6,

    I misinterpreted the meaning of this (the indicated speed +15km/h) in connection with GÜ the whole time. D'Oh!
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
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  20. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Yes, this is the grey area of the pzb rules, if you are running at 120 and you arrive to a signal (green - green) with yellow 9 under it, you need to acknowledge, slow down up to the pzb limit (85 for pzb mode O) than wait. As soon the 1000hz indicator light off (if the route still be cleated) hold the pzb relaase and than you can go to 90kmh.
     
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  21. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    It shows that PZB or its predecessor Indusi has not been developed to monitor speed restrictions. I mean, it works, but you have to get your head around the fact that, depending on your own speed approximately 1 km ahead of the restriction (up to 104 km/h or above), your factual speed limit varies (either 90 km/h or 80/85 km/h). That seems a bit counter-intuitive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  22. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Yes, but it is very easy because it always works in the same way. Everything that is different from a clear route need to be acknowledge and you need to reach the "safety" speed of you type of train ( O, M or U) the thing of the speed tollarance can happen only with 8, 9 or 10 speed reduction but it is very difficult to do it expetially because it dependa from the route too, exemple if you get a speed redution to 9 you can ovveride the restriction if you are max alt 104km, ok and this is correct, but if the 9 is a restriction for a danger point, like a crossing, an old bridge or for the old tunnel in heighenbruken on MSB you will always get the restriction indipendent from your speed. You can run at 92km and you will get the restriction tko at the magnet. So for this reason, don't pay attention to the tollerance and just go at the line speed, if needed acknowledge the magnet and than slow down, wait up the end of the detection area, relase it and continue at the new speed. This is very easy to do with a passenger train and you will not loose any time, just with the freight it is a bit more problematic but the freight doesn't need to follow a specific timetable so they can get a bit of delay
     

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