BML 2.0 We’re getting used to the idea of ‘remasters’ nowadays, and after several well-made updates across the UK it would seem like it’s only a matter of time before another older route receives similar treatment. With the Cathcart Circle remaster, the new Timetable update was paired with the 385 DLC, which gave DTG a financial reward for updating the route (although it was the train and timetable that was purchased, not that actual route update - but the incentive was there, and it’s a sweet deal for the players - an updated route, a new timetable and a new ‘loco’.. all for a small purchase). With GWE we may get something similar, perhaps a new loco or variant of something, but it’s only speculation at this point. With the WCMLS Mega Update we had a Wagon Pack which included services and scenarios. So it’s a safe bet that if, or when, this route is updated, it will be shipped with an optional ‘train pack / add-on’ dlc that will ‘complete’ the remaster, and for me, that is absolutely fine. If that’s what makes this ‘remaster’ viable for DTG to carry out, then so be it (suggestions for add-on DLC below). And, if you still don’t believe that the BML can be remastered, because of what DTG have said about the state of the route.. well, we were told many times that a GWE remaster was not possible, but lo and behold, it’s 2025 and it’s happening. If it’s not impossible then.. it’s possible! Core Updates TOD4 Lighting Suspension Updates to the 377/4 and GX 387/2 Guard Mode (on select services - perhaps stoppers and semi-fast Southern) Improved passenger behaviour, spawn points, models and density (in line with TSW5 standards) Scenery Improvements (utilising new assets that have been created since the route debuted, with more line-side clutter, fences, rails, station infrastructure that fits better on platforms etc. (more details further down)). Above: Interesting passenger behaviour on the Up Fast (P4) at Norbury. Station Overhauls London Victoria to have Platform 7 to Platform 1 fully accessible (if we can access the Southeastern Carriage Sidings at Victoria why are we blocked from their bays at the station?) Victoria to have the main concourse area opened up, modelled and accessible to players, with the large PIS board working (helping navigation in the Sim as well as IRL), with station clutter, advertisements, and passengers congregating. Victoria, Clapham Junction, Balham, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport to receive the appropriate TfL signage, branding and information boards. I believe these are all within the Oyster Card Zone anyway, but Balham is an interchange with the Northern Line - so Tube signage and maps would be welcome (as well as at Victoria (tube) Clapham Jct. (Overground) and East Croydon (Trams). All stations between Gatwick and Victoria essentially receiving ‘onward travel’ TfL signage, although it’s probably across the whole route IRL. Gatwick Airport to have its aeroplane models swapped out for the new Airbus ones. Perhaps an orange colour scheme to represent the abundance of easyJet! Gatwick Airport station to have it’s staircases adjusted (far too wide on some platforms), the ‘terminal side of the footbridge’ concourse added with various station clutter, signage and PIS boards, outlets etc (it will be interesting to see how ATS model their version of Manchester Airport - as a point of reference here). Reigate to be finished. The west side of the station has missing fences, barriers and seems heavily neglected. The whole area around it could be improved drastically. Brighton to have its concourse more accessible, with appropriate station clutter, signage, outlets etc. Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Redhill, Reigate, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Hayward’s Heath and Brighton (but not limited to) to have some accessible on-platform interiors, like waiting rooms or cafe’s (similar to Just Trains - who have set many precedents!) as the current buildings all seem to be boarded up and abandoned. All Southern operated stations to receive the Southern-branded station signage - similar to the stations on the East Coastway add-on. Norwood Junction station to be built, and fully-modelled, up to the standard of an on-route station, but to stay inaccessible - it’s currently bare, with no platforms, passengers or any physical assets. Trains call there, await signals and even open doors where the platforms should be. I am personally not too invested in re-opening Norwood Junction to players, as currently it would just be a ‘stub’ north from the Croydon / Selhurst area, and possibly require a small track extension further north to allow for the replacement of the ai portal. Battersea Park island platform to have its Victoria-bound ‘5-10 Car’ stop marker replaced and moved further up the platform, perhaps taking the signal with it too (creative license) - as currently, 8-Car stopping services overhang the south end of the platform by half a carriage length, which I believe has also determined the positioning of the subway staircase (which could also then be moved back to the extreme south end of the platform - similar to IRL) and then not cause passengers to congest around the current subway staircase in the middle of the platform. See post #27 below for images. Above: The Southeastern platforms at Victoria, which can be accessed, albeit unofficially. Above: The main footbridge connecting the Gatwick Airport platforms to one another, with bare walls and a certain liminal atmosphere. Proposed accessible station concourse would be in the background, beyond the black doors. Above: The unfinished western end of Reigate, where crossing barriers are missing, fences protecting the limit of the third-rail are absent and general infrastructure, assets and scenery is lacking. Above: Signage from the East Coastway add-on which features Southern-branded station signs. ‘New’ Accessible Areas In this section, I’ll discuss various places along the route which I believe are strong candidates for ‘opening up’ or making accessible to the player - which allow for more variety in gameplay, possibility in Scenario Creation and generally provide more longevity for the route. I have taken into strong consideration the difference between an ‘extension’ and opening up what is already extant, deliberately avoiding suggestions which are beyond the scope of a ‘remaster’. Hove Station and Yards: The station is not officially accessible, or modelled visually, however the track is laid, the signals in various states of placement and the adjacent yard is populated in the early hours by ai stock. There’s a decent amount of ‘run-off’ track beyond the station limit for this to be a strong contender for inclusion, especially as it offers much more variety at the southern end of this route. Southern operate services to Bognor Regis and Littlehampton via Preston Park and Hove, not to mention various West Coastway workings from Brighton. There’s the Hove to Brighton shuttle which takes just minutes (similar to the ‘quick services’ that the upcoming Cardiff City Network route has) and, finally, the overnight ECS services between Brighton, Lover’s Walk Depot, Preston Park and beyond. Stewart’s Lane Depot: Another area that is populated by ai overnight, the GX depot (but not limited to) just south of Battersea Park. This is an area ‘officially’ off-limits to players, but a simple trick at BP station can allow players full access down to the depot. Unlike Hove, the depot is visibly modelled and has working signals - players can jump into a parked GX and run it all the way back towards Victoria before being hit by the reverse side of the ‘session ended’ sign. The scenery around this area is also good, but lacking in some areas. Opening up Stewart’s Lane would allow for GX ECS services between the depot and Victoria. It would offer further Scenario opportunities too. Another ‘easy’ addition to the route, utilising what is already there, already programmed and already ‘accessible’. Reedham and Coulsdon Town: Two stations that are separate from the mainline, however are both visible from it. Both stations receive physical services, with stopping patterns and opening doors when arrived. Neither are modelled visibly well however, with Coulsdon Town being just a footbridge - despite being the more visible of the two from the mainline. Beyond Coulsdon Town, the line curves away and out of view, which is necessary for this suggestion as the ‘portal’ for the disappearing / appearing trains is still obscured from view, if Coulsdon Town was to be the playable limit of services here. The benefit of adding the two stations is another small, but tactical, one. It allows the opening of an area that is immediately visible, with tracks laid, and with services traversing it within the regular timetable. It allows a ‘branch’, of sorts, without needing a large extension. If it was paired with the two previous suggestions, it will certainly offer more variety and breathe added life into the route. Timetable and Layers The base timetable with London Commuter (set in 2018) is excellent - over 1000 playable regular services between Southern and Gatwick Express. Additional services, layers and static stock also provide for an immersive and (still to this day) fairly unrivalled UK TSW experience. You'd be forgiven for believing that it was ‘complete’ however. This route has formed the southern end of Thameslink since the beginning of privatisation. Even after the expansion of Thameslink services, to a variety of other destinations in the last decade, this part of the route is still the Thameslink stronghold it always was. The route can never be ‘complete’ without Thameslink’s representation - the Holy Grail of the BML route. Below I will dissect the current BML / London Commuter stock, analysing its layers, suggesting workarounds for additional layers and generally anticipating Thameslink’s inclusion. Current Base Layers: Southern Class 377/4 (377/1 also): Over 1000 playable services, ranging from semi-fast full-length runs between Brighton or Reigate and London, regional ‘split’ services between London and Hassocks or Three Bridges and then local commuter runs from the outer suburbs of Greater London up to Victoria. Several early morning and late night ECS stock moves between each ends’ respective depots. An excellent rendition of a busy, intense and commuter-heavy route IRL. Gatwick Express Class 387: Many more playable services in addition to the Southern ‘London to Brighton’ runs, but run as express or semi-fast between London, Gatwick Airport and Brighton. These services typically run non-stop between London Victoria, Gatwick Airport and Brighton, but do have occasional stops between the latter two. These GX trains also have ECS moves between various depots, including partial playable services to ‘off-limits’ areas like Hove Sidings. The GX services complement the ‘sea of Southern Green’ along the route rather nicely! Current Additional Layers (via DLC): GWR Class 166: This Great Western Express layered ‘loco’ adds approximately 120 services to the playable timetable on BML. Running their IRL services between Reading and Gatwick Airport (Reigate to Redhill and reverse to Gatwick - on this route). They compliment the Southern / GX EMU’s nicely, and can often be seen or spotted en-route while driving the aforementioned EMU’s. Some late night and early morning services start or terminate at Redhill, but can be driven as ECS from the nearby Redhill Sidings. The 166 is a great, and accurate addition to the current BML experience! GWR HST: An interesting addition to the route that exists as an hourly non-playable layer. These can be seen around Clapham Junction and are based on a brief time where they were diverted into London Waterloo. These ai services don’t call at any station, and really offer no real immersion value, but they are a credible inclusion nonetheless - and I can appreciate making clever use of stock that already exists. I wouldn’t mind if these HST diverts were removed, especially if performance issues prevented other, more commonplace stock from being included! Southeastern Class 375: One of two Southeastern trains to layer into this route, yet the only one with playable services. These units naturally run into London Victoria IRL, so are an accurate representation in that regard, however (like with the GWR HST’s above) they become another ‘divert’ service opportunity (slightly pushing the limit of plausibility again). The only services you can operate with the 375’s are East Croydon to Redhill, or vice versa, and are often seen in passing while taking a Southern or GX service. I believe there are 65 services for this particular ‘divert’ service - something, which again, for performance sake, is something I wouldn’t mind seeing the back of, if it made space for something more commonplace. Southeastern Class 465: The second of two Southeastern trains on the route, but this one is exclusively an ai layer and exclusively appears around Victoria. They often populate the Victoria Carriage Sidings, which are accessible, and players can commandeer one if they desired.. however as platforms 7 to 1 at Victoria are blocked, no ‘unofficial’ services can be made. Perhaps this is something to consider (performance issues depending) as a small addition in the future. Southern Region Class 09 Shunter: A little inclusion via the West Somerset Railway add-on, which can be seen parked towards the end of the Brighton station platforms, in the adjacent yards. A nod to its industrious Southern region past, a homage to previous eras of Lover’s Walk, or just a nice piece of furniture. I’d like to see this remain in a future remaster, especially if railtours were implemented. Southern Class 313: A handful of ECS, diversionary and ‘depot relocation’ playable services are possible with this DLC via DLC add-on (East Coastway). A great example of making use of stock for various ‘unusual’ or non-revenue earning services. The 313 has many more ai services - notably the Hove Shuttle (suggested as a future playable service) and runs eastward to Lewes, Seaford and Eastbourne (all playable services on the East Coastway add-on). These units were withdrawn from revenue earning duties in 2023, so any future remaster timetable that wishes to include them should be set in, or before, 2023. BR Class 66: The final add-on based layer. The East-Coastway specific version of the Sheds provides the only possible freight gameplay on the route - from HKA and JNA Aggregate traffic from the (now spawnable) freight yards along the route, diverted FKA Intermodal workings around Greater London and handful of shunting shifts / yard work. The various yards along the route (Purley Aggregates, Crawley New Yard etc) could do with more static stock however. I have only once seen static wagons while traversing the mainline, and that was during a scenario. The yards along the route are a mixed bag of ‘well-modelled’ (Crawley New Yard), ‘not so well-modelled’ (Ardingly Aggregates) and ‘need modelling’ (Purley Aggregates) - something which, with freight being included indefinitely, I’d like to see improved. More static stock, consistent detail / modelling between the yards and perhaps additional ‘early hours’ (when the mainline is at its quietest) freight workings. Timetable Update (New Services via DLC): Thameslink Class 700/1: The Holy-Grail of the BML suggestions. The Thameslink 700/1. It’s partially available already, via the PC Mod, however console players are still left with vacant platforms at Brighton (see Brighton Platforms 5 and 6 below). They run between Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Redhill (4tph) and East Croydon - with possible ai crossing the BML around Streatham Common. It’s not a question of if, or when.. but how - how do we get the 12-Car version into the game (for all) and in what way. Do we modify the original 8-car like the PC Mod and hope that no one really cares. Or do we release a 12-Car, largely similar version, as a paid add-on and lock the timetable update behind it. Would we turn a blind eye to the price, to the cheek of it? Or do we take two steps forward and pair a simple alteration of a ‘loco’ with another, brand new ‘loco’ (the answer is yes, and see Class 319 below). Thameslink run a huge 8 trains per hour between East Croydon and Gatwick. The inclusion of this would absolutely complete the route. It would be (for me) the TSW Magna Carta. It has to be done, and done in full.. and sacrifices in lesser areas will be necessary. Southern Class 377/2: A no-brainer. These /2 variants should be running the East Croydon to (the then) Milton Keynes services instead of the current 377/4’s (the /2’s are dual-voltage - a requirement for this service IRL). A straight swap should be hopefully relatively simple, however players must first have the WCMLS route for this swap to be possible. NSE/Thameslink Class 319: Our Lord and Saviour's gift (see the ‘319 for Liam’ thread). This would be an emotional and iconic, yet realistic addition to the BML landscape. The 319 is the original Thameslink train, which remained in service with TL until 2017. Pair this with the 700/1 in a ‘Thameslink: Then and Now’ style add-on, and keep everybody happy. I can’t imagine a single naysayer - especially if the 319 shipped in its original NSE livery! Timetable Update (New Layers via DLC): Overground Class 378: Upon release of the Incredible Trains ‘Mildmay Line’, anticipated for Q1 2025, the included London Overground Class 378 would be a shrewd ai only layer for the BML remaster. IRL these run around Clapham Junction, forming various services across Greater London, but importantly for this remaster, add valuable and realistic traffic to a somewhat quiet side of Clapham Junction. Not only there, but there’s also (in 2025) a twice daily service of 378’s running to Battersea Park - utilising the now discontinuous platform 2. SW Class 450 Desiro: We’ve seen Class 350’s debut on the WCMLS in a de-branded / generic livery (replicating the various shades of LNWR). We’ve also now know (17.1.25) that Liam has been working on 350’s as 450’s on the upcoming GWE Remaster, likely re-liveried in a generic blue or white / orange / red ‘stagecoach-esque’ livery. It would make sense to implement these as ai traffic between Wandsworth Road and Queenstown Road (via Clapham Junction). Even something as basic as a template timetable of generic services will suffice here. It’s more about having peripheral South Western services passing the train we drive than complete accuracy here - after all, these 350’s will probably still have pantographs (if you look closely enough), which doesn’t bother me so much. Pantograph lore on this route is non-existent anyway (see, Class 377/2 section above)! Southern Class 171: Probably the ‘loosest’ suggestion here, but making use of the Class 170, making them into both 2-Car and 4-Car variants for a small but accurate inclusion, could make for some slight variation in playable services. I believe the 4-Car services run (in 2025) on the route between Norwood Junction (from London Bridge), via East Croydon and South Croydon, and then on to Uckfield. They would only be playable between the Croydon’s’, unless ECS services at Selhurst were included. The 2-Car variants run (in 2025) exclusively between Eastbourne and Ashford (obviously not on this route), however in the past have made up services between Brighton and Eastbourne, and beyond. Some creative licensing here could make a better case for inclusion around Brighton, especially as the current base timetable is set around 2018. I assume the 2-Car versions are based at Southern’s Lover’s Walk Depot IRL - so inclusion as ECS services could be their one and only playable service type. Other Points: Brighton Platforms 5 & 6: These platforms appear to not have any scheduled services using them. Their ‘departure’ list on the new TSW5 Live Map remains blank, as does the platform PIS boards. I even noticed an inbound GX service being held at red, awaiting a free platform at Brighton, despite 5 and 6 being available to it (this was with all possible current layers). I believe platforms 5 & 6 at the real Brighton station are the ones used by the 4tph Thameslink services actually, so a coincidence? I think not. Issues / Bugs All stations to have their footbridges, underpasses or walkways to connecting platforms accessible to the player. Stations where players are blocked from ‘safely’ accessing other platforms are (as known currently): Preston Park (all platforms) and Purley Oaks (platform 4). Reigate is possible, but players must navigate a fence-less / barrier-less road crossing to reach a footbridge. Streatham Common platform 1, player will sink into platform when walking along the platform edge northwards. Prompted to ‘climb up’ when returning back to the ‘solid’ platform. Missing line side fences, barriers and railings along various stretches of the whole route (most notably between Balham, Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction). Fences and barriers to be added in the ‘gaps’ along the entirety of the route - protecting immersion and in-line with the more ‘safety conscious’ approach I’m pedalling. Some stations or platforms lacking PIS boards (Streatham Common platform 1) or with insufficient amounts, or in places that seem counterproductive to navigation (these PIS boards aid navigation in the Sim as well as IRL). All stations and platforms to have multiple PIS boards. Missing rail on the departure from Redhill towards Reigate, around the 30 speed board. Train appears to glide over the ‘gap’ without issue and remain on the course of the missing rail. Missing rail to be reinstated, repainted or made visible - whichever is the solution! Various on-platform station infrastructure (such as waiting rooms, shelters and signage) placed in ways that block parts of the platforms, overhang the ‘yellow line’ (thus encouraging breaching it) or seemingly don’t fit and appearing too massive for it’s habitat: Gatwick Airport has excessively wide staircases (yes, I know it’s an airport, but they seem excessive even by airport station standards). All stations to have their on-platform infrastructure reconsidered, replaced, adjusted or to be more self-aware of its surroundings! Platform ends on various route-wide stations are missing fences, barriers or even appropriate ‘warning signs’ for trespass. All stations should be updated to include these, in-line with the recent ‘safety conscious’ Suffragette / Goblin Line add-on. All stations to have their ‘yellow lines’ adjusted to be more realistic (thinner, but also nearer the tactile paving). Some lines are closer to the ‘back side’ of the platform edge than its actual ‘rail side’ edge (missing edge fences too - most notably at Clapham Junction). There’s also some ‘yellow lines’ entirely missing from stations, which should certainly be added (currently missing at: Three Bridges and Wivelsfield). Other This is a work in progress post and will be updated over time. Last update 17.1.25.
I like the idea of updating London Commuter, the routes sadly showing it's age. The only way I can see DTG justifying an upgrade would be introducing a DLC. I'm of course referring to the Class 700 by introducing both 700/1 and 0. It'll only be available for GEN 9 and PC Players.
to me the route still feels great, even though the branch at near Reigate still has that missing piece of rail lol... but yeah, some more types of trains would be nice ... or one more branch?
^This. If remastering the timetable, add in the 700 and I guess remove some of the electro star services if timetable too full.
anything to make this route even better is welcome... been playing this since its release and keep on returning to it regularly... nice and accessible trains, frequent speed changes, changing of tracks (loving the effect, also sound), different pathings/service patterns, and decent speeds (also as personal practice to remember mph to kph conversion/values)... oh, and the length is just about right, tho I wouldnt kind even some extra minutes and miles for sure
Yeah this is the only way to make it viable for DTG, even though it will be a glorified re-skin (that’s if they include a Pride livery, for example). It would be controversial.. £9.99 for it perhaps.. especially if it was locked behind the ‘own the route first’ thing. It’s the BML Holy Grail though. I would succumb to the temptation and pay, knowing it would complete the route. I’m sure others would too!
I’d use the PC Mod timetable as a point of reference, similar to the WCMLS one that helped progress the original lacklustre one. There’s a few other layers possible too: Overground 378’s at Clapham (when Mildmay / NLL releases), Aggregate freight for the various accessible aggregate sidings and yards and then possibly some 313 shuttles between Hove and Brighton.
Same, however not since TSW5 released. It’s sadly showing its age, and it’s definitely lacking the attention to detail and quality of more recent releases. The gameplay is unaffected of course, but the immersion breaks several times a journey. Hopefully it will all be a thing of the past, soonish!
Updated to include various bugs and issues that I’ve personally encountered. I’m happy to add other bugs or issues that the community has noticed, and I may end up trawling through previous threads and feedback posts to accumulate additional points!
not sure of the location... when you go from London Victoria, I think it is shortly after the station where it diverges into the branch, and you are going like 10 or 15 mph... I think this shows it nicely: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/no-track-reigate-branch-london-commuter.52454/#post-887501 you can travel over there no problem, but the track is either invisible or missing
Yes, I’ve clocked it now. It’s pretty impressive. Thankfully it looks like just a missing texture as the train continues on the course of the missing rail as if it was there.
Small Update: Added a point about some ‘yellow lines’ missing altogether on some stations, and the strange placement of some lines on some platforms. Also added a suggestion of including Southern-branded signage on Southern operated stations - similar to the West Coastway add-on! I’m also accumulating screenshots, and hope to add side by side comparisons of various points and suggestions, similar to the GWE remaster suggestion made by elarthur.
Great suggestion! I'm not sure if this was mentioned as it is a small thing but trains going to Victoria clip into one of the platforms at East Croydon, pretty sure it is the platform at the end. There could even be Class 378 Overground trains at Clapham Junction and Battersea Park once the NLL releases. I still play BML a fair bit but it would be one of the best routes in the game with a remaster.
Platform 1 by the sounds of it. I’ll check it out! Yes, the 378 would fit nicely on the route as a layer. Hopefully breathe some life into the far side of Clapham Junction too. I’m aware the timetable was set around 2018, did the Overground run often to Battersea Park then, or is it similar to the twice-a-day services now?
It would appear that no more than 5 images can be added to a post, even after publishing or editing a post. I’ll continue to describe improvements, but also add images onto follow-up posts below. Here’s some images surrounding known issues and bugs: Above: Platform 2 at Wivelsfield, which features a bare shelter, as an example of station infrastructure that could be better utilised or placed. Note the missing yellow lines too. Above: Balcombe’s platform 1 features this expansive and immersion-killing ramp. Its placement, appearance and environment are a prime example of stations in need of love across the route. Above: The missing fences between Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common and Balham, which is perhaps the most obvious example of missing barriers, fences or railings, outside of stations, across the whole route. Above: Platform 3 at the southern end of Redhill is another example of stations in need of love, particularly at platform ends. This example combines missing fences, lack of safety infrastructure (signs, rubber strips or tactile paving) and immersion-killing motor vehicle access to the platform. Above: The texture-only platform edge on platform 1 at Streatham Common. Players are able to ‘duck’ down and see the terrain underneath the platform.
Above: A unique platform edge at Clapham Junction, whereby the yellow lines appear to protect the fence-less ‘back side’ edge, rather than the ‘front side’ where the train actually passes. Note the missing fences, bizarrely juxtaposed by the presence of the single fence on the platform edge in the foreground.
Updated today to include suggestions of ‘new’ accessible areas within the current BML route. These are: Hove Station, and sidings Stewart’s Lane Depot Reedham and Coulsdon Town Stations These are all areas that are visible, ‘unofficially’ accessible or, at a minimum, have their tracks laid - which is a huge leap forward, towards future development and ultimately inclusion in a remaster. Above: Hove, as seen from Photo Mode - with adjusted time for a clearer view. Note the Gatwick Express units stabled here, the placeholder signals, and the correct alignment of tracks for Hove station platforms. Above: The interior of Stewart’s Lane Depot as seen from Photo Mode - hence the transparent wall confusion. Gatwick Express also stable their units here overnight, and players can even operate one from the depot back up towards Battersea Park. Above: The nighttime scenery from Stewart’s Lane Depot looking north. Battersea Power Station certainly takes centre stage on the short ‘unofficial’ run towards the mainline. Above: A 4-car Tattenham Corner bound Southern service pauses at an unmodelled Coulsdon Town station. The Brighton Mainline is seen in the foreground. Above: Reedham station is slightly more present than Coulsdon Town, however this 8-car London bound service still overhangs what currently exists of its platforms.
It's a mystery why Reedham and Coulsdon Town aren't accessible. They're both literally right next to the main line.
I reckon it’s a case of development ‘stopping’ before the route was finished. There’s so many cases for improvement, especially with opening up areas that are half-complete already!
I feel the sentiment, for sure, but there’s so many options and where would we draw the line if a rebuild / expanded route was proposed? I’d like to see the Purley / South Croydon branches personally, to Tattenham Corner and Caterham, perhaps East Grinstead. Some nice quieter areas of the route to juxtapose the intensity of the main line.
You should be be a beta tester with all this detail! Adding Hove would allow for playable shuttle services with the Class 313 between Hove and Brighton, as well as the West Coastway services by one stop and the Littlehampton services running via Haywards Heath. Layering the Class 377/2 from WCMLS for the East Croydon - Milton Keynes/Watford Junction services would also be ideal, as these are of course dual voltage units which are required to run the services in real life. Lots of potential still left in this route. It puzzles me why DTG never sold the Class 700 with both the /0 and /1 subclasses, layering onto multiple routes instead of just SEHS. Yes it would be more work, but they could have charged a modest amount more in return for a significant benefit to the UK route offering in TSW.
Honestly, I do feel like I could help in some capacity - I’ve become consumed by this thread, and the route! Great ideas, and they’re both no-brainers’. The 377/2 services won’t even require using their pantograph’s too, which should make for easier programming. The 313 shuttles are what I remember vividly from a few years ago visiting friends there, they’ll certainly be suggested / needed! In term of other stock or layers, I’m being mindful of how many varieties the TSW5 version of the game could handle - taking away, for example the GWR HST Diverts, and instead looking at the new Overground 378’s. Of course, the 700/1 is the holy grail of the route, and I wouldn’t want a remaster unless it was guaranteed to be made. I think it will pair quite nicely with a 319 too!
Update for today.. filling in a few odd suggestions / improvements, notably with the missing platforms at Norwood Junction and a ‘shuffling’ of station infrastructure at Battersea Park. Above: The missing station at Norwood Junction, which becomes obvious to the player on the various ECS runs at Selhurst Depot. Above: Queenstown Road, on the South Western route into Waterloo, which is visible from the Brighton Mainline, could also do with some love. Above: (1 of 3) Battersea Park subway staircase, centre, is placed in the middle of the island platform, causing congestion. Above: (2 of 3) The rear carriage of an 8-car Southern service to Victoria overhangs the south end of the platform, in the location of the real world subway staircase - which could be realistically added if the train pauses further down the platform. Above: (3 of 3) The solution at Battersea Park is to move the ‘5-10 Car’ stop marker further along the platform (at least another carriage length available) (signal to be moved too if necessary - although mid-platform signals are not uncommon in the UK). This would allow 8-Car stopping services to clear the south end of the island platform, thus allowing for the replacement of the subway staircase relative to its position on the real platform at Battersea Park, at the very end - allowing it to be wider and require no provision for circumnavigation like the current mid-platform staircase.
One thing to mention is station signs within London should show which travelcard fare zone they are in. All Southern stations apart from Brighton all use the default font as opposed to the correct version on East Coastway.
Agreed. The East-Coastway also have the Southern logo on the signs too. TfL / Oyster Card / Fare Zone signage - whatever we call it, should be present (especially as they’re included on Suffragette, WCMLS and now Mildmay Lines).
the route is great even now IMO, so whatever would be added and extend/enrich the experience, go for it
Well.. I hit the 25000 character limit - which I certainly didn’t anticipate! Below is the most important part of the suggestive ‘remaster’ - the timetable / layers. It’s pretty ‘wordy’, yet highly edited. I’ve had to cut a fair chunk out just to get to the point.. and that I hope I’ve done! Today’s (and the possibly the final) Update: Timetable and Layers The base timetable with London Commuter (set in 2018) is excellent - over 1000 playable regular services between Southern and Gatwick Express. Additional services, layers and static stock also provide for an immersive and (still to this day) fairly unrivalled UK TSW experience. You'd be forgiven for believing that it was ‘complete’ however. This route has formed the southern end of Thameslink since the beginning of privatisation. Even after the expansion of Thameslink services, to a variety of other destinations in the last decade, this part of the route is still the Thameslink stronghold it always was. The route can never be ‘complete’ without Thameslink’s representation - the Holy Grail of the BML route. Below I will dissect the current BML / London Commuter stock, analysing its layers, suggesting workarounds for additional layers and generally anticipating Thameslink’s inclusion. Current Base Layers: Southern Class 377/4 (377/1 also): Over 1000 playable services, ranging from semi-fast full-length runs between Brighton or Reigate and London, regional ‘split’ services between London and Hassocks or Three Bridges and then local commuter runs from the outer suburbs of Greater London up to Victoria. Several early morning and late night ECS stock moves between each ends’ respective depots. An excellent rendition of a busy, intense and commuter-heavy route IRL. Gatwick Express Class 387: Many more playable services in addition to the Southern ‘London to Brighton’ runs, but run as express or semi-fast between London, Gatwick Airport and Brighton. These services typically run non-stop between London Victoria, Gatwick Airport and Brighton, but do have occasional stops between the latter two. These GX trains also have ECS moves between various depots, including partial playable services to ‘off-limits’ areas like Hove Sidings. The GX services complement the ‘sea of Southern Green’ along the route rather nicely! Current Additional Layers (via DLC): GWR Class 166: This Great Western Express layered ‘loco’ adds approximately 120 services to the playable timetable on BML. Running their IRL services between Reading and Gatwick Airport (Reigate to Redhill and reverse to Gatwick - on this route). They compliment the Southern / GX EMU’s nicely, and can often be seen or spotted en-route while driving the aforementioned EMU’s. Some late night and early morning services start or terminate at Redhill, but can be driven as ECS from the nearby Redhill Sidings. The 166 is a great, and accurate addition to the current BML experience! GWR HST: An interesting addition to the route that exists as an hourly non-playable layer. These can be seen around Clapham Junction and are based on a brief time where they were diverted into London Waterloo. These ai services don’t call at any station, and really offer no real immersion value, but they are a credible inclusion nonetheless - and I can appreciate making clever use of stock that already exists. I wouldn’t mind if these HST diverts were removed, especially if performance issues prevented other, more commonplace stock from being included! Southeastern Class 375: One of two Southeastern trains to layer into this route, yet the only one with playable services. These units naturally run into London Victoria IRL, so are an accurate representation in that regard, however (like with the GWR HST’s above) they become another ‘divert’ service opportunity (slightly pushing the limit of plausibility again). The only services you can operate with the 375’s are East Croydon to Redhill, or vice versa, and are often seen in passing while taking a Southern or GX service. I believe there are 65 services for this particular ‘divert’ service - something, which again, for performance sake, is something I wouldn’t mind seeing the back of, if it made space for something more commonplace. Southeastern Class 465: The second of two Southeastern trains on the route, but this one is exclusively an ai layer and exclusively appears around Victoria. They often populate the Victoria Carriage Sidings, which are accessible, and players can commandeer one if they desired.. however as platforms 7 to 1 at Victoria are blocked, no ‘unofficial’ services can be made. Perhaps this is something to consider (performance issues depending) as a small addition in the future. Southern Region Class 09 Shunter: A little inclusion via the West Somerset Railway add-on, which can be seen parked towards the end of the Brighton station platforms, in the adjacent yards. A nod to its industrious Southern region past, a homage to previous eras of Lover’s Walk, or just a nice piece of furniture. I’d like to see this remain in a future remaster, especially if railtours were implemented. Southern Class 313: A handful of ECS, diversionary and ‘depot relocation’ playable services are possible with this DLC via DLC add-on (East Coastway). A great example of making use of stock for various ‘unusual’ or non-revenue earning services. The 313 has many more ai services - notably the Hove Shuttle (suggested as a future playable service) and runs eastward to Lewes, Seaford and Eastbourne (all playable services on the East Coastway add-on). These units were withdrawn from revenue earning duties in 2023, so any future remaster timetable that wishes to include them should be set in, or before, 2023. BR Class 66: The final add-on based layer. The East-Coastway specific version of the Sheds provides the only possible freight gameplay on the route - from HKA and JNA Aggregate traffic from the (now spawnable) freight yards along the route, diverted FKA Intermodal workings around Greater London and handful of shunting shifts / yard work. The various yards along the route (Purley Aggregates, Crawley New Yard etc) could do with more static stock however. I have only once seen static wagons while traversing the mainline, and that was during a scenario. The yards along the route are a mixed bag of ‘well-modelled’ (Crawley New Yard), ‘not so well-modelled’ (Ardingly Aggregates) and ‘need modelling’ (Purley Aggregates) - something which, with freight being included indefinitely, I’d like to see improved. More static stock, consistent detail / modelling between the yards and perhaps additional ‘early hours’ (when the mainline is at its quietest) freight workings. Timetable Update (New Services via DLC): Thameslink Class 700/1: The Holy-Grail of the BML suggestions. The Thameslink 700/1. It’s partially available already, via the PC Mod, however console players are still left with vacant platforms at Brighton (see Brighton Platforms 5 and 6 below). They run between Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Redhill (4tph) and East Croydon - with possible ai crossing the BML around Streatham Common. It’s not a question of if, or when.. but how - how do we get the 12-Car version into the game (for all) and in what way. Do we modify the original 8-car like the PC Mod and hope that no one really cares. Or do we release a 12-Car, largely similar version, as a paid add-on and lock the timetable update behind it. Would we turn a blind eye to the price, to the cheek of it? Or do we take two steps forward and pair a simple alteration of a ‘loco’ with another, brand new ‘loco’ (the answer is yes, and see Class 319 below). Thameslink run a huge 8 trains per hour between Easy Croydon and Gatwick. The inclusion of this would absolutely complete the route. It would be (for me) the TSW Magna Carta. It has to be done, and done in full.. and sacrifices in lesser areas will be necessary. Southern Class 377/2: A no-brainer. These /2 variants should be running the East Croydon to (the then) Milton Keynes services instead of the current 377/4’s (the /2’s are dual-voltage - a requirement for this service IRL). A straight swap should be hopefully relatively simple, however players must first have the WCMLS route for this swap to be possible. NSE/Thameslink Class 319: Our Lord and Saviour's gift (see the ‘319 for Liam’ thread). This would be an emotional and iconic, yet realistic addition to the BML landscape. The 319 is the original Thameslink train, which remained in service with TL until 2017. Pair this with the 700/1 in a ‘Thameslink: Then and Now’ style add-on, and keep everybody happy. I can’t imagine a single naysayer - especially if the 319 shipped in its original NSE livery! Timetable Update (New Layers via DLC): Overground Class 378: Upon release of the Incredible Trains ‘Mildmay Line’, anticipated for Q1 2025, the included London Overground Class 378 would be a shrewd ai only layer for the BML remaster. IRL these run around Clapham Junction, forming various services across Greater London, but importantly for this remaster, add valuable and realistic traffic to a somewhat quiet side of Clapham Junction. Not only there, but there’s also (in 2025) a twice daily service of 378’s running to Battersea Park - utilising the now discontinuous platform 2. SW Class 450 Desiro: We’ve seen Class 350’s debut on the WCMLS in a de-branded / generic livery (replicating the various shades of LNWR). We’ve also now know (17.1.25) that Liam has been working on 350’s as 450’s on the upcoming GWE Remaster, likely re-liveried in a generic blue or white / orange / red ‘stagecoach-esque’ livery. It would make sense to implement these as ai traffic between Wandsworth Road and Queenstown Road (via Clapham Junction). Even something as basic as a template timetable of generic services will suffice here. It’s more about having peripheral South Western services passing the train we drive than complete accuracy here - after all, these 350’s will probably still have pantographs (if you look closely enough), which doesn’t bother me so much. Pantograph lore on this route is non-existent anyway (see, Class 377/2 section above)! Southern Class 171: Probably the ‘loosest’ suggestion here, but making use of the Class 170, making them into both 2-Car and 4-Car variants for a small but accurate inclusion, could make for some slight variation in playable services. I believe the 4-Car services run (in 2025) on the route between Norwood Junction (from London Bridge), via East Croydon and South Croydon, and then on to Uckfield. They would only be playable between the Croydon’s’, unless ECS services at Selhurst were included. The 2-Car variants run (in 2025) exclusively between Eastbourne and Ashford (obviously not on this route), however in the past have made up services between Brighton and Eastbourne, and beyond. Some creative licensing here could make a better case for inclusion around Brighton, especially as the current base timetable is set around 2018. I assume the 2-Car versions are based at Southern’s Lover’s Walk Depot IRL - so inclusion as ECS services could be their one and only playable service type. Other Points: Brighton Platforms 5 & 6: These platforms appear to not have any scheduled services using them. Their ‘departure’ list on the new TSW5 Live Map remains blank, as does the platform PIS boards. I even noticed an inbound GX service being held at red, awaiting a free platform at Brighton, despite 5 and 6 being available to it (this was with all possible current layers). I believe platforms 5 & 6 at the real Brighton station are the ones used by the 4tph Thameslink services actually, so a coincidence? I think not.
It sounds great, BML is one of the best UK route ever made by DTG. BML can and should be the next UK route to be ramastered. With some improvements of like Introducing TOD4 lighting, adding Suspension for 377 and 387 and improving lineside scenery, BML has the potential of becoming the flagship of UK route. Hope that DTG would soon annonce the remaster of BML once they finished the remaster of GWE.
I agree. Love the BML and I hope that they make similar London routes like this in the future. Love the WCML so hope that they bring the BML and GWE up to that level of quality. I don't know when they are going to release GWE remaster but exciting times and if the remaster is popular then they may give it a go on the BML
