Boston Timetables Only Tested Without Safety Systems?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by bart.rousseau, Aug 24, 2021.

  1. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    Have the Boston timetables been developed without taking safety systems into account? For many services it seems you cannot get anywhere close to the timetable with safety systems on? I've not seen this issue with other routes in the past.
     
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  2. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    I believe all timetables are simulated without the safety systems (e.g. the speed signal limits), but this could be wrong.
     
  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Ive managed the occassional timetable with the safety systems on within 60-90 seconds of the timetable, that will do me and since when do trains always run on time IRL anyway? Most countries (other than Japan) allow 2-3 late running any way.
     
  4. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    timetable mode wasn't tested with or even without safety systems as the AI just give up after about 30-45 minutes in resulting in no clear path to the player services destination. :(
     
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  5. well that explains why services will end up "out of their path". They're trying to make it to their destination, but by the time they're halfway through, they are so late that the signaller can no longer identify them and gives up because he doesn't get paid enough anyway.
     
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  6. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    LMAOOOO
     
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  7. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    Gonna give up on this for the time being and let someone else do the beta-testing. Played another Boston service with safety system: 6 minutes later after the first stop. I'll be playing other routers until this one gets fixed.
     
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  8. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    No issues on outer routes being on time with safety systems, just this one.
     
  9. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    so because previous routes haven't been realistic in this aspect you dont think the sim should ever evolve and become more realistic?
     
  10. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    This timetable is based on a real life 2019 one. If the safety systems and signals worked as intended, on-time performance would be achievable.
     
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  11. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, one of the problems is the beginning of each service. There is no buffer for train preparation and passenger boarding.
     
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  12. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I find the biggest issue is that there is zero padding at station stops for example if you are timetabled to stop for 60 seconds it takes 60 seconds even if everyone has boarded when in reality the train could make up 10-15 seconds per stop if late based on a 60 stop, for longer stops greater time can be made up, conversely it a service is busy then IRL boarding may take longer than expected making a service late but again thats not in the game & should be, but then randomisation events should be in the game full stop IMO.

    This isnt just on this route but across Train Sim World 2
     
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  13. lucas_5_5

    lucas_5_5 Well-Known Member

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    Today i went from Boston to Providence. Beautifull autumn ride. The fact is i was going 125 CLEAR, and suddenly i got 60 CLEAR, 5-6 miles before Providence. Then a 45 APROACH, right after a 30 APROACH (3 miles away from Providence) And as a result i got 6 minutes late. I check the map when i got that first 60mph decrease, and there was no train ahead. Not even at Providence Station.
    So, i don't know if this was ok or not. Just telling my experience. I suspect something was wrong. Less than a mile away from Providence i got a 45 APROACH again.
     
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  14. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

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    This is a problem not only with this route, but it is truly frustrating. Especially if you actually need to run to the other end of the train to, say, switch on the tail lights.
     
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  15. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    exactly. the game needs more random events and unpredictability.
     
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  16. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I was embarrassingly late into Canton Jctn in the Foundations scenario, so I ran it again without the safety systems, just to compare. Made very little difference, I was still almost 8 minutes late. ( Still got a gold medal which I couldn't care less about). If I hadn't used the 2d map to throw the switches, I might still be driving.
     
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  17. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    Yeah, this is the issue I've seen reported many many times. I'm 90% sure DTG is aware of it.
     
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  18. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    Thankfully the game doesn't penalize you for lateness (as I've collected since I don't play it too much) which makes it realistic cause lateness isn't always the engineer's fault.
     
  19. TG Speed

    TG Speed New Member

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    One thing that's happened to me multiple times that I'm still baffled by is why, when safety systems are on, the train will just randomly fully apply the brakes and not release them without me turning safety off. Recently I was approaching canton or canton junction, got passed the crossing and then the train just suddenly fully applies the brake. Why???? I wasn't speeding, there was no speed limit change to acknowledge, nothing. No warning. The train just applies full brakes immediately after the crossing as if I had ignored the ATC or something. Now, I'm not going to sit here and act like I fully understand the ATC/ACSES. There's no manual to even look at anywhere and I'm not familiar with this route. But I cannot even begin to think of anything I did wrong. Is it a bug with the Cold as Ice scenario? Idk.

    Also, some of you have pointed this out but I'm not fond of the sheer abruptness of the safety systems. Jumping from one speed limit to the next with little to no warning. Very confusing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
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  20. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Brandon has volunteered to write a manual on the safety systems, but he's still busy with the catenary so we need to be patient. Most of us are having similar problems to yours and are just bumbling along ( or secretly switching them off ).
     
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  21. Hidden Donkey

    Hidden Donkey Active Member

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    and ful time job
     
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  22. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    I plan to have the second catenary pass (fixing any errors that popped up, rerouting return wire nicely, etc.) done by the end of the week. I'd like to get a start on the guides this weekend. Will be a nice relaxing weekend project.

    Yep, just got home from work =)
     
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  23. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Great! Of course, my idea for a nice relaxing weekend project is to kick back in the yard with a couple of cold ones. :D But, hey, each to his zone. No seriously, your hard work on this great route is much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
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  24. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    I hope this isn't asking too much but if you are up for it, it would be so awesome to see a video/stream of you going over and explaining things. It's so helpful for those of us that learn better from video. Don't want to sound entitled though that choice is completely up to you, but it would be lovely!
     
  25. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Just finished the last of the scenarios, you know the one written and developed by the Spanish Inquisition.
    Everything went without a hitch, except I was horrendously late in reaching my destinations ( but still got a teacher's gold sticker in each case).
    One thing, though....no, two things....no three things:

    1. Timings don't seem to matter, there's no penalty however late you are
    2 Whether you have the safety systems on or off, you're still going to be late.
    3. The timetable needs some serious attention.

    I'm falling in love with the route, despite a few minor niggles here and there.
     
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  26. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    From what I understand the ACSES gives you a braking curve if you haven't already began to slow. There are physical signals, so if you see any approach/approach clear/approach limited aspects you can more gently brake down to 45/30 before the safety system forces you to use suppression. Except when doing 125 in the AC64 - where the ACSES alert and brake curve starts way in advance!

    Any other ATC speed limits that show up unrelated to signals are permanent speed restrictions - eg. between Providence and S. Attlebro theres some s-bend curves at 60/70/60mph, also the trains that call at Attlebro will cross a switch - parts of this track are 30mph - once you know the route, you'll just brake for this gently BEFORE the ATC tells you - it's just route knowledge. The signal back to the main track is given a limited aspect (45mph) , so brake to 45mph before the ATC - you'll be warned of this by the previous signal which is Approach Limited; so again plenty of warning to brake.

    It makes sense. The only problem is that some stations have forced reds where theres nothing in front, so you will be restricted to 30 by ATC at the signals approaching those stations - such as heading into Providence and southbound into Readville.
    Brandon explained elsewehere that he's looking at these for a patch.

    Delays into Back Bay are due to congestion it seems - I quite like it!
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
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  27. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you are late both with or without safety sistem, means that something fundamental is broken within the timetables. And usually it's a loooong work to do if you need to change the timetables. So I'm quite confident there's low chance of this being fixed (there's more or less the same bug on Arosa line and it's never been fixed)
     
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  28. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    I wouldn't mind. Might be neat to actually make the guide on stream. Just have to be careful about what I show, but it may be possible
     
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  29. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciate your effort. A stream is OK for a tutorial, but for reference purposes it is not very suitable, because it is very slow to search a stream for specific information (no real random access).
     
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  30. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    What you just said is potentially really good news ;)
     
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  31. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't really care about being late, I mean trains are late all the time anyway.

    But yeah, it's pretty clear and obvious that they don't simulate driving with safety systems on when they simulate the timetable. Wish they did.
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure that with all routes, not just Boston, the timetables are developed and tested using AI trains- which notoriously don't obey signals other than hard reds or use safety systems at all (they also brake and accelerate like Ferraris). Ergo all the times are unrealistically fast.

    Why cannot the timetable developers simply copy the RL arrival and departure times? This does NOT require access to the super-secret working timetable; the public passenger timetable gives those.
     
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  33. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    The timetables could all be tested with AI-trains, but there are some timetables that are perfectly fine even with safety systems activated and others like Boston or Arosa for example, which have some fundamental flaws.
     
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  34. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    This one was answered in one of the streams not long ago, when they showed us how they create the services in UE.
    Long story short, they make 1 service and then they copy/paste it as many times as necessary just changing the starting time.
    The option to put the stop times in each station is available, but they would need to do it in each pasted service, so they save development time by skipping it.

    They think that the dispatcher automatically makes something close to the real timetable, and I agree that is the case when the stations are far enough between them (1.5 - 2 Km) but for some reason it does not when the stations are close to each other. My guess is this is because the AI can accelerate and brake much faster than the player can. The reason is that the AI has simplified physics, and AI can set the throttle to 100% immediately, while the player has to hold the "increase throttle" key for maybe 2 - 3 seconds to go from 0 to 100% best case scenario (meaning when the player is not trying to be realistic and accelerates at a slower rate not to disturb the virtual passengers).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
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  35. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    So i've been flummoxed by the ATC/ACSES on Boston as well, though without documentation it's hard to know for sure what's working correctly. I'm still using the systems, though.

    With that said- is it POSSIBLE that the timetable issues are caused by "missing" Acela Express services? I'm looking at a 2018 Amtrak timetable (i think i saw in another thread that in-game is based on 2019 fwiw) and the Acela runs hourly, just like the Northeast Regional, and leaves Boston South Station about 10 min ahead of the NE Regional (e.g. ACE 2163 departs at 11:05, and NER 173 departs at 11:15). They make the same stops and run at mostly the same speeds (i think there's a 150 mph section for Acela somewhere between Route 128 and Providence), so maybe that could account for some "invisible" traffic?

    IF there is a planned Acela DLC in the works (especially if it's like the Class 465 on SEHS where it follows pretty quickly), and given how difficult DTG said getting the safety systems to work was, maybe that Acela schedule is already "baked in", so to speak, so they only have to push a button to implement it when the DLC launches?

    I could be way off but it's fun to speculate, right?
     
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  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Some of the scenarios/services on Boston, for instance, begin with a period of switching or consist building and that can lead to losing a good deal of time. Players complete throwing switches and coupling in different ways. Would the timetable assume that switches are thrown manually?
     
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  37. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    The Acela services are on a different layer that's not utilized. Plus, the formation is physically disconnected from the service in the blueprint. Absolutely no way for those to show up as invisible services in the game, as they weren't simulated. They're just sitting there dormant in the files.
     
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  38. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    It would be something in Discord so it'll be interactive. Wouldn't be recorded or anything.
     
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  39. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    While you might sometimes get that impression, I doubt that real-world timetables are designed to be impossible to adhere to. In this case the issues with the safety systems prevents me from getting anywhere near the times in the timetable.
     
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  40. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    Excatly. The issue is not the timetable. There seems to be an issue with the safety system slowing you down way too much.
     
  41. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    I must admit that on other routes I've occasionally left with the train half-configured as there simply isn't enough time at the start of a service to set everything up correctly.
     
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  42. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    actually you say that but experts in signalling would disagree

    https://www.railfuture.org.uk/article1806-Impossible-timetables
     
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  43. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    So far I only tried on a single service and I got considerably closer to the timetable with safety systems of. Maybe I need to try a few more...
     
  44. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info- we can cross that theory off the list, then!
     
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  45. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    It does though. You get up to 500 points for stopping accuracy and up to 500 points for time accuracy.
     
  46. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    Well the timetable is partly to blame due to underutilization of Dispatch Beyond Instruction.
     
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  47. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    I've stopped playing Arosa line for that reason hoping it would eventually get fixed.
     
  48. bart.rousseau

    bart.rousseau Member

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    I loved Matt's safety system video. Something like that would be awesome.
     
  49. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Rivet didn't acknowledge the issue despite several player reports, so it's hopeless...
     
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  50. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    if that route didn't get fixed then I doubt this will either. Might just be something we have to live with. :(
     
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