This little challenge is inspired by service # IC 2307 from CHAPTER 2 "Into The City" (BR 101 Journey). Rules are: 1. Go for IC 2307 in the timetable. MSB layer could be mandatory for some reasons. 2. Weather conditions: Winter, Blizzard. 3. No HUD after departure (F1). 4. SIFA & PZB turned ON. Acomplishement conditions: -------------- godlike -------------- 1. Zero "Zwangsbremsung" storys or other interuptions. 2. Be on time. -------------- lucky loser -------------- 3. Just survive the ride. This corresponds somewhat with this extremely interesting thread by cwf.green: link I would love to see how to do it right! Maybe someone will record it, and someone else will judge it - Olaf the Snowman? Good luck, you will need it! \o/ Spoiler: EDIT Perhaps snow is an overkill in this case - driving too slowly (due to slow speed up) can help to avoid problems. I failed on the dry track. I don't know if driving in the rain differs from that in the snow in terms of braking distance. I hope potential daredevils understand what I mean. Spoiler: EDIT & very heavy spoiler Assumptions: PZB will not be able to stop the train from this speed before the red signal. And behind it - a freight train on a collision course! Spoiler: EDIT... No-HUD is crucial because this case is partially about track layout, visibility, and braking effectiveness. With dry conditions, PZB eliminates SPAD possibilities but "Zwangsbremsung" ** is still an option. Reduced traction provides (theoretically) additional attractions. ** because of braking curve eg SPOILER
Excited to try it out! I'm currently on 25 completed timetable runs with the BR101. It's an addictive loco
Perhaps you haven't even noticed that you've already done it without encountering difficulties. This puzzle of mine is a bit improvised, and bad weather can paradoxically help (depending on the driving style). In Journey, the track is dry. However, it is not an easy task. 101 is godlike \o/
Aaargh. HRR is not one of the routes I usually run hudless, but I think I've learned it enough to try this challenge. Lots of different speed limits to keep track of... Same, once you do your first service it's over, you want to do them all, that loco is just so good
I've been running without any HUD (except km to next station which I don't think you can get rid of?) for a while now. The beauty of German railroads is that all speed limits (at least almost all) will have advanced warning. The only "gotcha moment" on HRR in TSW2 is the absence of any sign before the speed reduction from 160 km/h to 140 km/h in the direction Essen - Bochum at hectometer post 9.8. Duisburg - Bochum: 100-130-150 soon after leaving Duisburg. I usually keep to 90 km/h while leaving the station and all switches since that's the signal speed limit. At Mülheim there is a speed reduction from 150 to 110 and then after the platform the speed goes up to 130 km/h again and about a kilometer after it goes to 160 km/h. There is a speed reduction about 2km before Essen from 160 to 100 km/h that you can get punished by the GPA if you don't use 4 brake (or 3 if you brake before the Lf6) but nothing too harsh. While I tested the braking distances previously I found that to stop smoothly you can do the following: 100 km/h: Step 4 700m from the stop point and reduce to 3 for 7-wagon trains decelerating through 50 km/h. 80 km/h: Step 4 440-460m from the stop point and reduce to 3 for 7 wagon trains decelerating through 50 km/h 60 km/h: step 4/3 300m -||- (9/7 wagon train) 40 km/h: step 4/3 140m -||- These are just guides, I suggest to try them out and then try to get a feel for doing it without since it's more enjoyable not looking at any HUD elements. Also if you are short on time you can brake more harshly closer to the stopping point but I like to drive in the philosophy of some train drivers where the passengers shouldn't know if they are moving or have stopped already . But this is more about right before stopping, you can brake quite harshly without passengers being too uncomfortable, as long as you smoothly apply/release (jerking is what you want to avoid). For the stop point I usually reduce to 1B at 10 km/h and then right before stopping I release fully so the stop is barely noticeable. It's very ego-driven, sort of like trying to get smooth landings in an airliner (although smooth train stops aren't potentially dangerous like a floater landing is). For Vr0 (yellow/yellow signal) I usually go into step 4 if my speed is below 130 km/h, otherwise it's at least step 5 or even step 6 depending on how early I saw the warning. A big mistake is to anticipate a green light and release at 80-85 km/h. ALWAYS keep brakes applied until below 500 Hz magnet speed limit (65 km/h) unless you were really early in braking. After Essen it is up to 100 km/h unless signals have limited you to 80 km/h and then 130 km/h soon after. The speed limit goes up to 160 km/h again after you've entered the left "high speed" line. At 8.8 km I usually start braking for 140 km/h at 9.8, although you can wait a bit but there might be a GPA tripping if you haven't reduced below 150 km/h in time. You might need to use the HUD to see when the speed limit goes back to 160 km/h because I don't think there is a Lf7 post (could be though). About 3 km before Bochum there is a 100 km/h speed reduction which always (n TSW2) is followed by a Vr0. Since you will be going 160 km/h you need to reduce below 120 km/h inside 500m or you'll get a penalty brake application. I usually then only decelerate to 80 km/h for PZB and try to stop in one continuous brake application from 80 km/h. This might actually be unrealistic since you don't want to approach a red signal at 80 km/h. I presume real drivers would approach more slowly, like 40 km/h at platform entrance(?). I might upload a video later if someone is interested. I'm just going from memory now so there could be inaccuracies above. Also, obviously this is just for gaming/sim purposes, following these instructions in a real train might cause equipment damage, injury or death xD NOTE: The 1B - release before instruction I got from training instructions to German drivers: ""Haltebremsung Zuerst el. Bremse voll. Luftbremse 0.4 - 0.5 bar absenken und Verlauf der Bremsung beobachten. Bei Bedarf weitere Absenkung. Im Bereich von 50 km/h Abnahme der Bremskraft wg. Ausschalten der R-Bremse berücksichtigen. Mit dem Lösen beginnen je nach Zuglänge und Druckabsenkung bei 40 - 20 km/h. Um den für Reisende unangenehmen Ruck beim Halt zu vermeiden, soll der Druck in den Bremszylindern beim Halt 0.5 bar nicht übersteigen. Dies wird erreicht durch rechtzeitiges Lösen bis auf 4.6 bar und vollständiges Lösen kurz vor Stillstand." Any German speakers that can confirm whether the instruction is to fully apply E-brake first then supplement with air?
Just done this. It all went smoothly in so far as no Zwangsbremsung happened. I arrived in Duisburg at 22:13, so 1 minute behind schedule which DB would still consider on time. I wasn‘t quite happy with my final stop though, I underestimated the slippery rails and had to brake quite harshly to bring the train to a safe stop. Nevertheless, it was fun and challenging breblimator, a very good idea.
cwf.green, could you tell me the source of that quote? I can translate it just fine, but I‘d like more context. These rules usually don‘t exist in isolation.
I remember the general speed limits and signals to watch out, would have just liked a bit more practice, anyway, I've managed to do it (albeit at my second attempt, I forgot the electric brakes alone were not enough in bad adhesion conditions for the first 140km/h reduction - facepalm) It's not my best effort in terms of smoothness, I was more worried about speed limits and signals. But I need to get better at stopping smoothly with german trains, hopefully once I go back to RT I will get more practice, thanks for the tips, cfw.green Uncut https://www.twitch.tv/fd1003/v/1015315069?sr=a&t=0
The only context I have is that I got the quote from a Swedish driver on a Swedish train forum in discussion about German trains (more specifically one person made a quip about German drivers never releasing the brakes before a stop because the thread was about a video of a German train braking very harshly at a station. The quote was this guy being corrected that there are in fact instructions meant to prevent this in Germany as well). I managed to score "god-like" (lol) on the scenario above. I actually recorded the session but this was my second attempt since I forgot to record the first, so it was a bit easier since I knew what would happen. I do promise that I didn't get a Zwangsbremsung or SPAD on my first try though . I was actually more "on time" (12:27) than in the recording (12:53) but I made a similar mistake as you (Lamplight) where I overestimated the brake performance and had to brake quite harshly not to SPAD at the station. When approaching a signal at 10 km/h it seems like (for me at least) it is very easy to brake too late since you don't want to apply too much brake at such a slow speed (or else you'll screech to a halt) but then the brakes will take some time to start slowing the train down = fail. Not sure if anyone is interested in the video, hopefully it will be possible to stream the video instead of download (google tells me they're working on it): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_cXdhTSbbb1oPdQGZnfxLkhgBFwHhCIX/view?usp=sharing
SPOILER At some point in our journey, we let a freight train stop at the station, on the track next to ours. Braking is easy on a dry track. My braking curve was too gentle and PZB decided to help me, but that way we won't get to SPAD. Later I tried to 'collide' with that freight train that was crossing the track ahead of us. Perhaps it is not as obvious as I originally assumed to be there at the same time as the other train, and even harder, perhaps, to be there faster, especially in the snow. Well, the surprise didn't go well, hehe. But the plan was just like that. Whatever the case, that was not a joke - I tried to screw it up like this at least a few times. But due to the rush (to catch the freight train), I fell into the PZB trap earlier. It only remains for me to congratulate you all. You are either very lucky or have such great skill \o/ EDIT movies are being watched
Yes, I watched your video without any problems, I have a lot to learn on stopping at stations smoothly ahahah, great run.
In adverse weather conditions such as in this scenario it is important to brake early. Its much better to be slow and have to creep up to a signal then to be just on the edge and then suddenly the traction drops EDIT: What I'm trying to work on atm (other than just general stuff like learning when to brake the train to not lose time etc) is to more smoothly handle the energy of the train. What I mean by this is that if you ever check videos of real drivers (or tag along in the cab) they rarely will accelerate to line speed if they know a speed reduction is coming up. Sometimes I forget there is a speed limit coming up so I may accelerate at full power (or full available traction) to line speed but then have to brake 20 km/h or more down just a few seconds after. Not very energy efficient and it will not make you run any more on time either. As an example is this video (hopefully time link works otherwise 22m06s) where the driver could have waited a bit longer to brake without ATC (in cab signalling system) taking action.
Well, to answer your previous question, what you cited does say to fully apply electric brakes first and then use air as needed until you get to slow speeds. The reason why I asked for more context is that there‘s another official rule that strictly forbids the sole use of electric brakes for stopping. This does of course comply with the rule you cited, but I found it odd that one rule forbids the use of the electric brake for stopping essentially (I know that that is an over-simplification, but still) while another tells you to only use the electric brake for stopping until you get to slow speeds.
Yes, that part surprised me since I have heard from different people to use the blended braking. In terms of energy efficiency, using up E-brake and then adding air brake is of course better but I know for a fact that this is not commonly used in Sweden on TRAXX locomotives (this is freight though where E-brake has a negligible effect). I could think of some examples where E-brake alone (if adhesion conditions allow) would suffice. Let's say you are driving a short RE train with just a few Dosto wagons (maybe total train mass 200t-250t), then the E-brake will give quite good deceleration. For a 500t IC train however the E-brake will only give 0.3 m/s^2 in deceleration even at max (and this is at speeds below the fade off point). Stopping from 160 km/h would require over 3000m. Good when you have a lot of slack in the timetable perhaps but not so much otherwise.
Oooh, I love this....! This is what TSW2 needs - some trackable challenges that really test the gameplay, player skill (um.... or should that be Mastery....?), and, in fact, the simulation itself. It would complete transform the player experience. More of this please....! Oooh, until it is built into the game (LOL... which it never will be... unfortunately...)... maybe @DTG_Jamie could make a specific Forum section for Member Challenges, to build up a collection.....? Right - time for TSW 2..... IC 2307......
That is why the context here would be interesting. It‘s possible that your rule may be from a manual for a specific loco (EMUs come to mind, though I don‘t know of any that have seperate controls for air and electric brakes), where such practices make sense, either due to the construction of the loco or because it‘s just used for very light trains. Similar to you, my main interest lies with freight trains. Rules that are (possibly) exclusive to passenger runs are not my area of expertise
I think EMUs can be excluded for the reasons you mentioned, afaik there are no German EMUs with separate E-brake and air brake handle. It seems to me there are two possibilities. One is that the quote refers to electric locomotives used for passenger service like BR146,BR101 etc. The reason for this is that the "4.6 bar" perfectly matches the brake pipe pressure in 1B setting on modern style EP brakes that use a digital to analog PWM controller. The other possibility is that the text refers to BR40x (ICE) which has only one brake handle (combined air and electric brake) but where the first few notches are purely electric brake other than at very low speeds. If so the text basically just instructs driver to use brake effort if possible, otherwise increase (use air) the brake effort.
cwf.green, I watched Your attempt. Nice one. Trained professional. A balanced, proactive, confident ride. I like the way you are using the brakes (first), and then AFB for established the speed. I hope you choose 'godlike' in our little survey. Good job! Approved \o/ Time for another run by FD1003 (only 2 pts less in debrieffing) \o/ EDIT You nailed it, FD! I still have to practice a lot. I'm worse than Natalie, maybe even worse than Matt... Bravo! Nice shot between trains \o/ Godlike detected.
Thank you, breblimator, for making this challenge. It was really fun and you've made me a "HUD-free believer". Before I didn't have the F5 or speed limit HUDs but I still had the F1 HUD. I think the best (for my taste) would be if you could remove the upper left HUD element but still have the cursor and throttle/brake indications since sometimes it's a little hard to see where the controller positions are. I still prefer it to using the F1 HUD however. I'm a little salty because I think I was docked 15 points for overspeed even though I never had the AFB above the speed limit. I think this is because the overspeed penalty kicks in at xxx.5 even though the HUD doesn't change over until at whole integers. I feel like they could be generous and not deduct points until we are at 161.0 or whatever Also I think DTG should take note of this thread. Plenty of people have now shared their like for realistic and challenging scenarios. If DTG just went ahead and implemented my fixes for the freight trains (link), think of how many varied, interesting and challenging freight scenarios we could run!
My pleasure. The cockpit of 101 is very legible and allows for such games. Not all locomotives allow us to drive comfortably this way. With Rush Hour we will get support for TrackIR - it will be fun \o/ EDIT We need a freight loco that good now. BR 232 maybe? We will see. PS 155 is very challenging too!
That might be the solution. I‘m not very knowledgable about ICEs. Good idea Agreed. If it was real life, I‘d have the haptic feedback telling me what I did with the levers. It‘s not that easy to spot in TSW without the HUD. Also agreed. I think we all remeber the forums being full of praise for Limited Power on CRR. Scenarios are a good opportunity to provide both extraordinary events (the freight scenarios on RRO are a good example of that) and for more challenging tasks such as Limited Power. The challenge from breblimator is an excellent example for how challenging (and fun) TSW gameplay can be.
This new Challenge, that colleague Anthony is so worried about It is also an example of healthy and happy competition. Honestly, my heart is red, but I'd like to read about Amtrak \o/ Really!
I find myself counting and trying to remember the lever positions, sometimes I feel so stupid, applying the brakes and counting in my head "1, 2, 3"...
Would it make you happier if I said that I did that as well? Seriously, when the Spoiler red signal because of the freight service came up, I was sitting there counting the train brake notches 1A, 1B, 2, 3, ...
Wow! That was crazy hard ... and so much fun! On my first attempt, there were no casualties ... other than my employment prospects with DB. Did OK on my second attempt and managed to pull in cold, tired, and only 1 minute late. Driving without the HUD requires so much concentration. I would love for you to post this run in the Awesome Service thread (or, I can post it for you), but what I would really like to see is you start a TSW2 Community Challenge Thread and lead it off with this run! Thank you. I truly enjoyed that challenge.
I am very glad to hear that You are the owner of the coolest thread on this forum - BANG If you could do it for me, you would really enjoy it Really! ** I would be extremely happy! PS Another Pearl
I would propose to not hide the lever position hints from UI because you cannot feel the lever position as IRL. Otherwise this is great challenge
To make the community challenge fair, probably the score by country should be dividend by the total number of available services to choose from.
