Br 101 Opinions And Thoughts On More Ic Rolling Stock

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Jo_Kim, Apr 22, 2021.

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  1. More IC 1

    17 vote(s)
    17.0%
  2. More IC 2

    2 vote(s)
    2.0%
  3. More of any IC

    77 vote(s)
    77.0%
  4. No

    4 vote(s)
    4.0%
  1. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    These are my subjective opinions and thoughts on the newly released BR 101 DLC and future DLCs regarding German Intercity services. You can put your thoughts and comments below, but please remain calm and constructive.

    Opinions on the BR 101 DLC:
    The locomotive and coaches are among the best we've ever got for TSW. Whilst there are some minor faults (which is normal for a release build) the driving experience is very enjoyable. The performance feels right, the models are accurate and the sounds are brilliant. I didn't expect the coaches to have the correct sound, but they are clearly identifiable as IC coaches even if they could get some more fine-tuning.
    But there are also things that I don't like. Firstly delivering the BR 101 with HRR wasn't the best choice. The loco can't show its strengths on this route because it is too slow and too short. To remain accurate to the real routes the BR 101 runs on the only other option would have been HMA, which already has problems due to the high count of services on the route. In my opinion, the BR 101 should have been released with a new german route on which it could run with 200km/h.
    The main argument from DTG why they did not include the cab car was that it would be like building a second loco. I think this argument is not really valid if we consider older DLCs. The Baby Bullet for PenCo came with a loco, coaches and a cab car. MSB came with the BR 146.2, BR 185.2 (only minor changes between these) and the Dosto Cab car. No other route was delivered with three locos. And whilst there is still a lot of work involved with building a cab car it is less than building a loco. The normal running sounds are the same as with normal coaches, the normal end of the cab car can basically be copied from a normal coach and the simugraph model doesn't need anything related to propulsion.
    As a trade-in for not having the cab car in this DLC, it would at least have been nice to get the bistro car.

    Thoughts on more IC rolling stock:
    I think many people in the community would like to see even more German IC rolling stock in the game.
    The rolling stock used in IC services is really diverse. Most coaches were built in the 70s and 80s and were modernised multiple times in their lifetime. So even if two coaches have entered service as the same type they can look really different today.
    Since DTG want to avoid a DLC that needs a loco DLC this needs to come with a new loco. The BR 120 would be perfect. This could just copy the IC coaches from the BR 101 and add the cab car. The ex-IR (InterRegio) coaches would also make a nice addition to the game.
    There are also the IC2 coaches, which are Dosto coaches of the fifth generation (Bombardier Twindexx Vario). These could then be also implemented with some modifications in the interior for regional services.
     
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  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sand Patch came with three. NTP came with two locos and a DMU. PenCo came with two locos and a cab car.

    On IC2: FWIW, not a fan. IC2, at least from outside, looks like DB cynically killing off Interregio Express and then replacing it with what boils down to a Regiobahn painted white, for a substantial surcharge.
     
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  3. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Obviously yes. And oviously every type of IC (more 1 than 2) and ICE (1, 2,3, 4, T) too.
    And why not, also (at least) the flagships from other countries.
     
  4. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You can't talk about German IC without mentioning this spectacular loco, the BR 103 and it's equally stunning passenger cars.
    [​IMG]
    Pic above shows this beautiful beast and it's coaches in the famous TEE Rheingold livery.

    The loco is one of the most powerful electric ever build with around 7400 KW (9900 HP), and is still in use by DB running IC services at up to 200 km/h. This would really be something truly special in TSW I think.
     
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  5. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    There are IC2 services with the Stadler Kiss, which is a double decker EMU that can do 200 Km/h.
    If we were to get IC2, I'd rather have this one than the repainted Dostos.
     
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  6. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I would put this first, also used for the Trans Europ Express. However I also like Rheingold very much.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FS_Class_E.444
     
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  7. eurocityboy

    eurocityboy Active Member

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    I think having more IC coaches would be great, but I'm quite happy they made a start with two types.

    Just because it was mentioned on stream: The BR 101 does not - I repeat - * does not * do freight workings in regular service, and never has. I know it says in Wikipedia that it was conceived as a universal service locomotive, but it was never used that way. DB Cargo never owned any, and neither did any of the other freight operators. It only ever worked Intercity services and the like (night trains, Eurocities, possibly mail trains early on). And before anyone gets clever: I'm talking about regular service here, just because you can find a picture somewhere of a 101 on freight doesn't mean it's a regular occurrence. In over 20 years, I've never once seen this happening in real life. So no, the BR 101 is de facto a pure passenger loco and should not substitute for freight locos in the game. The same was true for the BR 120 until it was partially withdrawn or sold off to freight operators last year. You can now see them work freight trains in substantial number for the first time in their careers, something that was never the case, previously. Maybe the same will happen to the 101 at some point, but for now, if you want to stay even vaguely realistic, it's passengers only.
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I know I’m a dinosaur but this is really what I would like to see for Germany, along with UIC stock for the D trains and classic Silberlinge for the E and N trains.
     
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  9. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Very important!! Dont know why people are thinking that, there were some test runs with freight, but thats almost two decades ago. Its a pure passenger loco!

    I bought it after the price on Steam was corrected and i`m impressed! It looks and Sounds stunning and there are already the first downloadable Repaints and scenarios for other Routes, and with the services on HHL (I know, not many, but there arent really more irl), its definetly worth its (correct) prize
     
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  10. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're right. I like the BR 101, both in its driving, as in the sounds and modeling :love: Yes, a real success this DLC, a great job :cool:
     
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  11. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    Just on the point of what came with what routes. RSN came with the 143 and Dosto cab car 767.2 and the 185.2.
     
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  12. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to be a dinosaur to appreciate an engineering marvel regardless of its age man ! :)
     
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  13. LodeStar

    LodeStar Member

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    I saw the mentions of the gorgeous German BR103 and the equally legendary Italian E.444...let's add a French CC7100 for an European electric all stars intercity pack! ;)
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Just because the locos haven't worked much freight, to me doesn't mean the variety of stock on services in game should be held back. Put it on the freight services, just with a very low spawn chance. I'd also like to point out that a 101 has been used on freight as recently as last month, and although it was a one-off working it still happened. It's not unrealistic to have a 101 on freight, even if it is incredibly rare.
     
  15. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Unfortunately the substitution system isn't quite as flexible as it needs to be to support that - currently we can say how likely the base loco is to get substituted with *something* but not how likely a specific thing is to substitute into *that* role. Similarly, we can say how likely a specific loco is to appear *anywhere* as a sub, but not how likely it is to substitute into a *specific* thing.

    What this means is that in the first instance you can only make it less likely that anything subs into the base loco OR in the second instance, make it less likely that the BR 101 substitutes *anywhere* at all (which includes livery substitution, so dial it right down because currently it would only sub for freight... and you wont see many liveries at all).

    The substitution system is in need of a rethink and improvement and it's on our list to look at in the future but there are no current plans to action it - hence we generally take a more cautious approach and don't feature "rare" substitutions as options because you can't turn them off or control them.

    We also can't currently offer some freight based formations for Scenario Planner due to another limitation relating to cross plugin dependencies in formations specifically in scenario planner however that is a simpler issue to resolve so much more likely than the bigger substitution issue - again, no plan to action it right now however, to be clear.

    Matt.
     
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  16. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Yes the BR 103 is a legend but it would not fit on a modern route, since they mostly went out of service in the early 2000s. I have suggested a historical route which would be perfect for this loco (Linke Rheinstrecke 1975) but for extending the diversity of IC rolling stock in the game I think the BR 120 is the better choice

    Yes the Stadler KISS can do 200km/h but at the moment they are only used on one Intercity line. If we get a route which this line uses it would be perfect but for the existing routes it sadly wouldn't fit.

    The BR 101 was used as a regular freight loco in its early years. It was mainly used for the Parcel Intercity, a night service between multiple logistic centres of package delivery provider DHL. The PIC used special freight waggons with a max. speed of 160km/h, which was too fast for most freight locos and too heavy for conventional passenger locos. For this, the 101s were rented to DB Railion (later DB Cargo) which was possible because the 101s were only needed for IC services by day.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  17. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Is that why liveries only effectively appear on US freight trains on their own? Where locos randomly replace one another? I have never met my custom liveries on ICEs for example... it would now make sense as there's no substitution mechanic with them. Same for example with mid-cars on Baby Bullet - no spawn, because no replacement happens?
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If Wiki says that, then it's completely wrong; apparently somebody has confused the 101 with the 120. The 101 was conceived from the ground up as the high-speed passenger replacement for the 103s, which were wearing out early through overuse. The 120 was supposed to be the universal loco, but that fell apart with reunification and sectorization.
     
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  19. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    The 101 was also meant to be a universal locomotive. Originally the plans were that all 101s would transition to DB Cargo as the traditional ICs were meant to be replaced by EMUs. Since this transition was delayed this will not happen anymore, but the 101 was constructed as a universal locomotive and was meant to see regular service in passenger and freight services.
     
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  20. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting to see better coaches for the TSW2 version of this loco than the very poor examples in TS2021
     
  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see the ic2 train. I didn´t get the 101 because the train really didn´t interest me that much along with the fact that hrr is too short for that route. The reasons as to why the cab car couldn´t come aren´t 100% valid reasons either. Some older dlc´s have come with a cab car and three trains as well. The MP36, msb, ntp as examples. The mp36 was charged at standard price and ntp and msb were the base routes for tsw2020 as well
     
  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    When the 101 was designed, DB Cargo didn't exist. It was all just DB.
     
  23. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    The contract for the BR 101 was issued in 1994, the same year the DB AG was founded. Whilst all operations were handled under one company in the 1990s it was already planned to split the fleet into several specialized companies and therefore the necessary transition for the BR 101 from DB Fernverkehr to DB Cargo.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the sectorization of DB AG was imposed by the Bundestag over DB's vociferous objections in 1999.
     
  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    From what I could find on German forums, it seems that the 101 was very much still designed as universalish loco. It was designed for heavy, fast passenger trains and light, but fast freight trains. It was a time when 160km/h freight trains were still on the table. The plan was to use the 101 as a band-aid for the failing 103s and small stock of 120s and then transfer them to Cargo when the switch to EMUs was complete. As that change never came (as completely as intended at least), the 101s instead stayed with Fernverkehr.

    This is what you find in multiple German sources on the 101 history. I couldn‘t find any factual documents to verify it, however.
     
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  26. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Here are two pictures of a 146 in front of an IC and a freight train, but nobody that knows a bit about German railways would let a 146 substitute for a 101 or 185. Just because it happened once or twice it doesnt mean its that common to let a loco substitute in timetable mode, so it'd show up regularly.

    Werent there a lot of people upset with the Diesel Legends pack, saying that the Class 101 wasnt common on GWE? Well, the 101 isnt and wasnt common before freight Trains either
     

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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn´t make sense for a 101 to be a freight train if they are rarely used for freight operations
     
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  28. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    The 101 was, in fact, clearly designed as a Universal Locomotive, Just like the 182. There was a Standing Agreement between DB Fernverkehr (Long Distance Passenger Trains) and DB Cargo that the 101s are going to Cargo as soon as Long distance Trains are worked bu EMUs (Just like Lamplight stated), because at the time it was assumed that this would be the case in a few years. Even if this agreement officially no longer applies today: Now, with the introduction of the ICE4 and the IC2, universal applicability is once again important. Various railway companies are considering buying a 101. DB Systemtechnik already operates a 101 for measuring train services.

    Those Locos are capable of hauling a 2200t-Train (In Germany those trains are considered Heavy-Weight) with 100 kph. The 101 series were used regularly in front of heavy, high-speed mail container trains until a few years ago.

    Source: the German Wikipedia-Entry: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_101
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
  29. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    We definitely could use some French and Italian routes for those beauties. Bot Italy and France have some sexy IC locomotives.
    One of the French CC7100 loco managed to reach 330km/h in 1955 destroying the speed record. I remember seeing the old video on YouTube a few years ago. That is madness!
    Link with the speed record attempt below for any interested enthusiasts
     
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  30. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    In response to some thoughts above, the most pressing thing for DTG is to enable custom formations and combining vehicles from different packs. Then we really have a virtual trainset.
     
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