So, I have been driving these two locos lately, and as you know, they are slightly different from other German locos in that they have "Speed selector" aka AFB lever and you can also control your throttle with "Force Selector" (correct me if I used wrong designation) I wanted to know how you handle these for starting from 0 kph, then speed changes, and stopping Here is how I do it, and please let me know if I am doing sth wrong, I would like to drive in a more prototypical fashion : Starting - I put Force selector to like 50-60% (so the kN per motor doesnt get over 50 kN) and Speed selector to 40, usually it lets me release from PZB, so I do that and move the selector to whatever speed is allowed, and then depending on kN readout, I increase Force selector Speed changes - I put Force selector to 0%, wait for the "gear number" to go to 0, then brake under the next speed restriction, release brakes, move Speed selector to new value, and reengage Force selector Stopping at station - I put my Speed selector to Off, then brake until stop (sometimes I do similar stuff as with speed changes, so I dont stop too early) Now, I know some ppl just move Speed selector lower at speed changes, but it takes like a second to engage the brake(s) and I am not sure if this is sth akin to abusing AFB to control speed... sometimes I would put Speed selector to Off even at speed changes, brake, release brake, and reenage Speed selector to lower value I would like to hear you guys, either how YOU do it, or how it SHOULD be done thanks for advice P.S.: I know that in this thread it is explained a little bit, but I would like to know how it is supposed to be done, since I assume my style isnt the best
There is actually the original training movie available on youtube, even while it's in German, a lot is shown illustratively there. The real controls are much more complex, and you would need half of keyboard just to control all the programming.. But the loco is not controlled only by the speed selector and force selector. Most importantly, the coasting button is completely missing from the speed selector in TSW, which is otherwise heavily used to keep the speed selector in place when you want to go off throttle. In the game you need to take the speed selector to zero, but that starts with electrical braking already along the way, which is not usually what you want.
What the 143 has is not AFB, it's a whole thing of its own. Using the speed controller to brake (for speed restrictions, not to stop the train!) is in fact encouraged. Set the tractive force selector to zero, move the speed selector to your new target speed, then increase the tractive force to the desired value. Just keep in mind that that whole dance takes a moment and you might want to start doing it before the speed change is actually announced - the 143 is a loco that needs route knowledge to be driven well. When in doubt, just use the air brake. That and the traction lock is far too aggressive. There is literally just one condition under which you need to reset the speed selector to zero on the real locomotive, and that's once you've stopped.
There is a lot of useful information in this thread: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/br-143-how-to-drive-like-a-boss.52336/
ok, so the Force selector controls BOTH the tractive effort when accelerating AND the amount of brake force should you move Speed selector DOWN? the whole "force selector to zero, speed selector to lower value and force selector to desired value" is, I guess, so the brakes dont slam so hard... and again, the force selector in this determines how hard the brakes bite in once the speed selector is moved to lower speed? also, when coming to a stop at a station (updated according to other comments) - Speed selector to ON, Force selector to xy % (whatever you want dynamic brakes to be) and train brake to whatever notch to brake nicely? there are a lot of great information in there, but it is also super confusing at times reading through it all So.... lets get it down to bits... SPEED SELECTOR isnt exactly like AFB, but KIND OF? When you move it to lower speed, is it FORCE SELECTOR that determines how hard do the brakes set in? (am I repeating myself, I guess? ) I know 112 is a tad different than 143, but in terms of driving they are similar, arent they? I mean, the controls/control method seems to be similar anyway, from my reading of this and other threads, it looks like it largely comes down to how hard people feel should the loco/train brake when hitting speed restrictions or coming to a stop, aaand of course managing the strict traction lock so it doesnt get locked when you need to do slight speed adjustments or so
Yes those locos are a bit different to other ones in the way you drive them. In tsw, when starting to drive, i usually go lower than 50% with the traction force. Since there are missing levers a bit of ductape is necessary to drive smooth. But the 2 program switches (nur fahren / nur bremsen) are needed. My wish is, that DTG is updating the 112 to the 143 standard.
Yes. That's one of the key differences between the 112/143 and a modern loco with AFB. Exactly. No, the loco blends electric and air brakes automatically when you use the air brakes. Just use the brake valve. In real life, you could in fact use the speed and force selectors to obtain more electric braking force than you get through brake blending, but that doesn't work in TSW.
A while back (actually a few years ago I see now - time flies!) I did a write up of some of unusual features of the 143 that can be found here: The bit about the auxiliary control will tell you how you are supposed to start trains. Edit: See below. Also, a note on this: Don’t touch the auxiliary control on TSW’s 112 - for some reason, this bricks the loco and you can not get her to shut down traction at all.
Do you have a source for that? I've recently read the original 143 training manual from Deutsche Reichsbahn (my university library had a copy) and it didn't mention anything like that. The recommended way to start a train was with the force selector around 30% to stretch out the train, then 100% once that's been accomplished. (of course you can't just immediately put the force selector to 100% in TSW because the wheelslip prevention feature that the loco has in real life is missing completely...)
So, when coming to a stop, where should I put the selectors? Speed selector to ON or OFF (does this really matter if I am coming to a stop?) ? As for force selector I guess that depends, and then set the train brake to whatever? more to the Force selector - if you are accelerating, it determines kN per motor for that, and if you apply train brake, it determines how much of e-brake force it contributes to overall braking? With Speed selector on ON and Force selector on xy %, you use only xy % e-brake? I know that auxilliary control exists in 112, but I simply use Speed selector set to 40 kph and some lower Force selector setting Ok, so right now I can think of kinda two methods of changing to lower speed restriction: FIRST ONE (the method I have been using till now pretty much; originally though, I would just slam the speed selector to whatever lower value there was and pray it braked down in time lol) 1) Force selector to 0% 2) Train brake application 3) Train brake release (once under next speed limit) 4) Speed selector to new, lower value 5) Force selector to xy % SECOND ONE (combining the FIRST ONE with insights from posts/comments) 1) Force selector to 0% 2) Speed selector to new, lower value 3) Force selector to xy % or just 1) Adjust force selector to xy % and 2) Speed selector to new, lower value depending on how well I manage to get sleep during my free/vacation days and such, I MIGHT do a stream with BR112
My source for this was this section of the DB Regio manual: Loosely translated for everyone: The first sentence specifically mentioning individual taps led me to believe that you are intended to use the auxiliary control for this. Start with the auxiliary control, then put the speed selector up a fair bit (with appropriate force selector setting) and only put the speed selector to the line speed when properly underway - that was the way I read this paragraph. Do you read this differently?
it says 3-4 taps OR 10 kN per motor... so basically you dont have to use the taps/aux, just put the force selector in very low percentage to "unstuck" the train and get it moving, then stretch it with greater force selector setting, and then proceed at even more if I understood it correctly
In real life you would use the "free run down" button rather than either of the selector levers. However, that doesn't exist in TSW, so the best thing you can do is set the speed selector to 0. It behaves the exact same no matter whether the loco is under power or braking - the loco will try to use its motors (but not the air brake!) to reach the selected speed using the amount of tractive force you selected. I'm not sure what you mean with "how much the e-brake contributes to overall braking" - the speed and force selectors only control the motors, not the air brakes. The air brake, however, can generate an electric brake demand. The loco uses blended braking by default if you brake using the driver's brake valve. The amount of electric brake force for any given air brake pressure is fixed and not influenced by the force selector though. So there are two ways to demand electric braking from the loco: either set the speed selector to a value lower than the current speed (and the force selector to a value >0), or use the air (blended) brake. Both of these can be active at the same time, and the loco automatically picks the larger value! So if you want to use mostly the electric brake for a speed restriction but use a minimum application on the air brake to help, that's how you do that... on the real loco. Doesn't work in TSW. It doesn't mention how you're supposed to obtain these taps, so I don't take this to mean you should use the aux control for this. You can, of course, but don't have to. The 1993 manual I have says (also at 4.2.2!): "With the tractive force selector, select only as much tractive force as is necessary to stretch, start and accelerate the train without danger of wheelslip" And at 4.2.3: "Stretch the train with a much lower setting of the tractive force selector than is necessary for the following acceleration phase"
ok, so when I use train brake, it uses air and a FIXED amount of electric braking, if I understand correctly, so Force selector doesnt influence this? I meant it like when you put the Speed selector to lower value, lets say from 120 to 80 kph, does Force selector influence how much kN is put into e-braking? pretty much ties to my previous comment/question - when I move Speed selector to lower value, does the Force selector influence how strong the brakes are in this situation? some ppl mentioned that if you put Speed selector to ON (not sure if it is the same as putting it to zero), it applies electric brake depending on Force selector setting so, to conclude, making sure I understand - Force selector uses proportionate % aka kN, if accelerating, it puts the kN into speeding up, and if you lower Speed selector, then it applies the proportionate kN as electric brakes kinda?
Yes. The loco will try to 1:1 replace the force it would get from the air brake with electric brake force. Yes. Yes it does - it's essentially "active, but 0 km/h" - but why not simply select the speed that you actually want the loco to go instead?
This is not 143-exclusive, with any train we start on very low throttle setting and accelerate further only when all screwlinks are stretched and end of the train is moving as well.
mkraehe#6051, thanks for your perspective. True enough, the auxiliary control is never mentioned. I remembered the manual slightly differently. Also curious that the numbers match (probably more or less the same manual - just digital with a different cover sheet ). I’ll edit my above post as such. Don’t want to spread misinformation. Have you heard about using the auxiliary control for small speed adjustments before? I’m not sure right now whether that was also something I might be misremembering.
That's not something I've heard about. Keep in mind that the aux control isn't just a different input to the main control system, but a whole separate thing that works in parallel to the main controls - that's why one can replace the other if either is broken. If anything, the aux control system is probably less suited to small speed adjustments than the main controls since it can only do whole taps, while the main controls can do any value between two taps as well. Also remember that the speed selector is an analogue control without any notches in reality, so you can operate it much more precisely than the TSW version that only does 10 km/h steps...
Yeah, I figured as much. I can’t remember where I got that from either. I remember for certain that I read/heard it somewhere but that’s it.
looking at all of info bits here, I am thinking of returning to the sort of "OCD manual pdf" I have started a bit ago... basically a pdf file compiling all stuff like this into comprehensive, step by step instructions (including variants), that dont make it into official manuals or training modules, but which are very useful to ppl who want to improve their skills when I got some time, I will look what is already in there, update and revise it, and when it is "done", might post it somewhere, and create a thread unless another anxiety/whatever brain thing episode strikes and I'm useless for a couple days again fun fun
ok, so I have been messing around with Force selector in Training center - what I did was take the train up to 160 kph, then put the FS to 0%, put the Speed selector to like 60 kph, and then increase/decrease Force selector percentage... what the dial was showing was kinda weird - between 120/100 and around 50% it showed 140 kN (dial stayed in place anywhere till around 46%), then around 45%, the kN dropped a little, and from there on I could fine-tune the amount of kN so what does this mean? does this mean that around 46% of tractive force (according to WikiPedia the max power of 112 is 248 kN, so 46% is around 114 kN, but then, inaccuracies happen here and there I guess? cos if 140 kN was 46%, then 112 would have to have 300 kN of total tractive force, which it never had) would in this case be around 140 kN? like, at 46% of tractive force the e-brake reaches its peak power and doesnt increase from then on? ... or is it the dial not showing more?
observation no.2 - when braking to a stop... like, first I put Speed selector to OFF, then engage the train brake... and if then put Speed selector to ON, it seems to engage a bit more e-brake power, at least it seems to according to the dial edit: I was kinda wrong with this one - if the Train brake notch isnt too great, the Speed selector kinda overcomes it cos it applies greater e-brake, but as soon as you put Train brake into greater notch, again it disengages for a bit... so it is kinda pointless to have it ON... unless you are going a bit faster than you wanted to, in that case that dynamic braking comes in handy, for a bit
The scaling of the force selector is different for traction and braking. 50% and above does in fact translate to 100% brake force.
razmatus#2517, mkraehe#6051, thank you for making me revisit the manual. Learned a thing or two and now that I know that I needn’t mess with the auxiliary control, I can at least drive the 112 (as long as no shunting is involved) - all of the issues with the 3D model notwithstanding, of course.
#mindblown wow... now this is a fact I wouldnt be able to find out on my own even if I delved deep into... thanks to all you guys here, it has made my driving experience with 112 a much better, smoother experience, I actually feel like driving sth ... feel free to share any tips/experience ... damn, now I wish there were even more routes to use 112 lol btw on Tuesday I have been to Vienna and had a joyride from Wien - Franz Josefs Bahnhof via Tulln to St. Polten (from Tulln to St. Polten via Tullnerfeld Linie) and back via old Westbahn (via Neulengbach and Purkersdorf)... and man, I kinda see why some ppl are so fond of OBB 1144 Herbert... it is quite old now, but fast, reliable, and maaaaan, the RUMBLE... even just idling at a station, and then before take off when the engine starts... damn I have made a Herbert like livery for 112 might make a CityShuttle liveries for dostos so I can make Camel Hump train
ok, looks like DTG have been messing with 112 again... as far as I remember, after receiving advice here and driving, everything was fine, except the door issue... now the correct doors open and close, but... as you remember (and others who replied here), we discussed some e-braking stuff, how 112 applies it in speed/force selector combo, how it applies during other ways of braking with this loco, including when Speed selector is off and you brake with train brake well, as far as I know, once you apply at least notch 2 or 3 (sometimes even 1), train should apply some air brake and some e-brake... right now, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt apply e-brake even when at notch 7 (!!!) which means the braking is p...-poor... and sometimes it applies e-brake even when at notch 1 to add to the weirdness/confusion, as far as I know, DIRECT / LOCO brake should only apply AIR braking... but now it also applies strong e-brake... correct me if I am wrong but direct brake should only brake with AIR (?)... so it looks like that in the process of fixing the door functionality, somewhere along the way the brake functions got mixed up / confused tried/tested this multiple times in timetable on Hamburg Lubeck and also in Training center, just to be sure... sometimes it worked as it is expected, sometimes even when I put train brake into FULL APPLICATION, I could see the air brake gauge applying stuff, but e-brake doing jacks... then I released that and tested direct brake, applied that, and all of a sudden e-brake went crazy
I would also add that I tried usual solutions - using cleanup program on computer with Steam turned off, reinstalling Hamburg Lubeck DLC and restarting computer altogether, nothing helped
The brakes on the 112 have always been bugged. Sometimes you just don’t get any braking at all (no electric brake and no air brake) on the locomotive when applying the brake. It seems to apply brakes to the rest of the train as you do slow down but you are missing quite a lot of the braking force from having no brakes applying on the loco. The electric brake may kick in at some time after braking for a while but that doesn’t make much difference. It is one loco I gave up driving altogether because of this.
the direct brake applying e-brake is sth I have never encountered, lol? ... and the e-brake sometimes applying and sometimes not is also new... used to work like a week ago or so just fine... if it didnt, I would notice it (a perk of having OCD tendencies, I guess? noticing little cr..? ) I wonder if again they broke sth because of other loco, or there was some minor update in preparation for TSW5 (tho I didnt notice any?), cos there will be BR 114, which I guess will be an in-game variant of 112... I hope they fix it since I like driving this loco from time to time
In the other thread about this that you have posted in I actually posted about this behaviour and that was back in January 2023 so it isn’t a new bug but it is something that is intermittent, so you may not have seen it before now. Hopefully the 114 doesn’t have the same bug when that is released.
I have to save this thread for later in fact as I didn't much like the BR 143. The training in game was poor considering the complexity of this loco. I was about to do some freight service, and even there was a freight tutorial, for the service itself I simply couldn't get the train moving and didn't bother further. The AFB being the only way to drive this loco and incremental increases of 10km (whoever decided that was a good idea) didn't really sit right with me either. Yeah, didn't really enjoy this loco at all. Maybe if I sit down and learn things properly I'll have a change of heart.
I hope so, and since I have sent a ticket... 112 was kind of prominent for a while again cos of 218 release kinda screwing a couple things on that one too, the doors to be specific... sth in the recent updates must have thrown sth in there out of balance again till they fix it I will have to treat this as loco failure (for immersion sake) and adjust my braking accordingly - start braking sooner and if the e-brake doesnt kick in, put train brake into higher notch etc. will see if I get any meaningful response to my ticket, so far most of stuff got solved
Well, I am actually playing TSW2, Dredsen - Riesa, the part that is the Journey, with the 143. I am sure this particular service is just bugged. During the tutorial, the breaking system, or the Train Break is super sensitive. All I had to do was to put the break to 1, and the train came to almost a screeching halt from 20km/h, shortly after the break was applied (with only two DB 766.2 carriages). Now, during the journey service, I feel like I'm driving a freight service and not a passenger service. (four DB 766.2 carriages). Everything just feels extremely sluggish. The breaking mode is set to R as well, but feels like it's operating at G setting. There's a several seconds delay to the breaks, and even when I apply the breaks to 3-5 it takes a while before they actually start applying them, which makes me wonder whether it's bugged and the breaks are operating as if for freight service. This may not at all be a loco issue, but just a bugged service, but everything feels extremely sluggish, especially here where there are 15+ stops every 1,5-2km. Also, I have now figured out why I had issues with getting that freight service started. Nowhere was it explained that the Break Key needed to be turned on before the service, nvm showing where it is located. So after combing the entire cabin to figure out why the loco wouldn't start rolling I finally found the culprit for a non starting train. Anyway, this was one hour long excruciating run. I still got a few more runs with this train, but am hoping this was just a bugged service. Same issue seems to be with the DB 766.2 loco for Dresden - Riesa TSW2 route. No loco sounds, throttle and breaking issues, to name a few.
I tried a suggestion from some other thread, possibly about 114 - to first teleport to the dosto cab, there set reverser to neutral/forward, unlock brake key, and set the train brake to full, then lock the brake key and put reverser to off (or out, depending on dosto model), then teleport back to 112 cab and go as usual... seemed to help a bit... tho the dosto SHOULD already come set up properly, cos this loses you like a minute or so
guys, anyone who has done some hours with 114 (and possibly others mentioned in this thread) recently - are the brakes still kinda broken, or has there been a fix in the meantime? I remember some ppl mentioning that before setting up the loco it might always be a good idea to check the dosto cab car, like insert brake key there, put brakes into full, and then lock it back, and THEN get back to loco cab and set that one up... does this actually help?
latest observation - 112 still has those unreliable brakes... tried fiddling with dostos, no effect... essentially I have tested 3 things: 1. Force selector to 0%, Speed selector to lower value, then Force selector to % - to see how pure e-braking works 2. Speed selector at xy kph, then Force selector to 0%, applying Train brake notches - to see how blended e-braking works (without having to move Speed selector, which sometimes you have to anyway) 3. Speed selector to Off, applying Train brake notches - to see if blended e-braking works properly lets say when you need to stop 112: 1. that one works ok 2. does rarely work and mostly at all 3. sometimes works, sometimes at higher brake notches, sometimes not at all, sometimes ok, very inconsistent 114: 1. seems to work differently than on 112... at higher speeds it gets to around 50 kN of e-braking, and once you get to lower speeds, gradually increases (reminds me of how Vectron, if you select 240 kN e-braking, at 150 it increases the force gradually)... not very usable if you want to slow down lets say from 160 to 90 as the force increases too slowly, here you might have to brake with usual train brake and its e-brake component 2. similar to point 1, at around notch 2 it starts applying e-braking 3. always works, tho it seems a bit weaker than 112 (back when it worked) so for now, I guess I recommend using 114 if you want this type of loco... it is kinda sad this group of locos doesnt get that much love as to fixes, as beside 146.2 (and 218) we dont have that many classic locos to haul regional stuff... and these are kinda fun to operate
