Br 182 Schnellbremsung (fast Braking) Vs. Emergency Braking

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by doublefine7, May 16, 2021.

  1. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    So, most of you who drove the BR 182 already noticed, that the train brakes has notches. The last 2 notches of it are Full braking and Emergency braking. The last notch is called "Schnellbremsung" in german. You might ask why and where is there a difference.

    In terms of applying the brakes there is none. Smashing the emergency button or using the "Schnellbremsung" via the train brake is equal or at least should be. But in the game it isnt. If you use the train brakes last notch, the brakes need longer to apply than using the emergency button and here is the reason: The train uses air to brake and when you go into "Schnellbremsung" or Emergency button brake, the air is pushed out of the cylinder and the brakes apply as fast as possible. But ingame the "Schnellbremsung" doesnt work like that. The air gets pushed out slowly so the brakes apply as slow which isnt realistic and can lead to SPADs. I urge DTG to fix that issue of the train brake and since both the 112.1 and the MRCE 182 suffer from kind of wrong simulated behaviour, it should be fixed.

    Addition: So you have the HLL, the Hauptluftleitung. It contains the air for the brakes. the lower it is, the more braking power is apply (it is simplicated here). I measured that using the emergency button, the HLL falls down to 0 almost instantly within 1 second. Using the train brake on Emergency/Schnellbremsung it needs 3-5 seconds to fall down to 0. It is not supposed to be like this, it should work as fast as pushing the emergency button.

    So where is the real difference between using the emergency button and the "Schnellbremsung"-notch on the train brake? Using the emergency button slaps down the pantograph and causes the train to completely shutdown.

    Conclusion: Emergency train brake and emergency brake button have to apply the brakes similarly but at the moment they dont.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  2. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for (maybe) being slow but are you saying that in real life the emergency brake application time should be equal to the full service (Vollbremsung) application time?

    If so I disagree. When the driver puts the brake lever in SB (Schnellbremsung) or hits the Notbremse (emergency) brake button the air is let out from the HLL through a larger hole which means that the HLL pressure will drop quicker, this will thus mean a slightly shorter time for brakes to apply. Note however that the time for brake cylinder pressure to build up is the same irregardless of VB/SB setting.

    The way I have had it explained to me (if I remember correctly, and maybe you already know this but for the general audience I will try to explain) HLL air is vented to atmosphere from one of two different holes. The SB hole has larger diameter so the pressure will drop faster and since the air signal throughout the HLL on the whole train depends on pressure difference the signal will travel faster in SB than in VB.

    This is only half the story, however. If the control valve (not sure what the English name is) senses a difference in pressure between the reservoir (on each wagon) and the HLL, the brake cylinder pressure will increase or decrease depending on whether reservoir pressure is higher than HLL or lower. The rate at which the brake cylinder pressure increases or decreases to a target pressure is fixed, this only depends on if the wagon is in G- or P/R-brake setting. But, SB will change the target pressure (HLL) quicker so the brake cylinder pressure will ultimately hit it's maximum quicker in SB than in VB.

    Why does a bigger hole cause the air pressure signal to propagate faster? The fluid (air is a fluid) is accelerated by the pressure gradient caused by the difference in pressure between the HLL and the atmosphere (when in contact, i.e. when a hole is opened). This acceleration is thus larger when SB is used compared to VB so the air will move faster throughout the HLL.

    Think of it this way: If the pressure increase rate in the brake cylinder is a, the time for SB to hit 3.5 bar in HLL (or whatever level corresponds to max brake) is T_sb and the time for VB is T_vb and lastly the brake cylinder pressure is P_bc then the time for max brake in VB and SB will be:

    VB: T_vb + P_bc/a
    SB: T_sb + P_bc/a

    So you can see, there will be a slight difference. This difference increases with train length (with pneumatic brakes).

    Lastly, and this is not modelled currently in TSW2 but if the train is equipped with magnetic brakes the brake performance will differ significantly between SB and VB.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  3. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    In my opening post I am referring at all times to the SB and not the VB. I just mentioned VB because the last 2 notches of the train brake there are named. So I am not explaining the difference between a VB (Full braking) and SB (Emergency train brake) which difference is obvious and you explained it very well.

    My point is that the emergency button, the big red button, flushes the Air almost instantly and the SB on the train brake should act like that as well but it doesnt. Actually the current SB on the MRCE 182 acts kind of like a midly faster VB.

    The only difference between emergency button and SB on the train brake is that the emergency button flushes the complete train line instantly while the SB flushes the train line a bit slower but the difference in time isnt that big.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  4. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I thought you meant the difference between VB and SB. Now, I fully agree with you.
     

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