Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

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  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That still is no excuse for not using at least the much improved new 185 sounds. Not accurate, but not painfully awful.
     
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  2. cyrill.kroonstuiver

    cyrill.kroonstuiver Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I get them not having access to 187 sounds. Still shouldn't release it without those sounds, but I get that.
    But the excuse that non-Germans wouldn't notice anyway is absolute bonkers.
    I don't care that a large amount of people wouldn't see the difference, I want authenticity, it's why I play TSW over other simulators.
    If they screwed up the British 377 with an American horn and colored it bright purple and said it's ok cause no one outside of the UK would know it's wrong not only would the British community (rightfully) be in uproar, I doubt they'd get away with that.
     
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  3. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

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    This comment in the stream was really unpleasant and somewhat disrespectful towards customers, if you take into account we're talking about the very sound set, which had been an issue for the preserved collection locos for many many months.

    I do fully understand that they could not get the correct one and had to use something (although not necessarily the broken one, mind you). I even understand that, due to the universal laws of marketing, they won't openly state that fact in the product description (although that would be an honest thing to do IMO). But it's comments like this which are really shameful. It's the second time, after the Dresden debacle where post with "all you need to know" somehow missed some unpleasant information. I'm not going to react with hate to this, just express my disappointment.

    A pity. I had a budget reservation for this. I was even wondering about ignoring this sound issue, I managed to play "broken" 146 for many hours, and it seems like this loco does have some interesting features, so I thought perhaps I'd still buy. But it's simply this attitude which will keep my money in my wallet this time.
     
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  4. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    My thought is that they never had any intention of travelling to Germany to record the sounds. They decided it was easier and cheaper to copy some broken sounds and stick them together.
    If it was true that they wanted to do it right they wouldn't have released it, or they would have bothered to look for better sounds even if it was from another TRAXX. Anything but give us something that sounds like a blender mixed with a hoover. The covid excuse was well prepared, of course.
     
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  5. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Oh c'mon... they could've asked people from the community or you know... make a different loco. This is a very poor excuse, especially when talents like Maik exist which could probably help them here (not speaking for him of course).
     
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  6. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Rivet must have trained them in the famous ostrich technique, they are masters at it.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Hear, hear.
     
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  8. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of sound, it sounds the same as the 185.2 (DRA's 185.5 already has better sounds and physics, including the correct SIFA alarm). With this new 187 we are back to the past. In the post you quoted I added that even the cabin does not look really authentic, but a mix ... starting from that of the old dear 185.2
     
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    £11.99 for takeaway tomorrow night instead all.

    this is not polluting my purchase list.

    Im going to wait until DTG release something better themselves
     
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  10. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

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    Are there any differences between sounds on 185.2 and 185.5? Or could DTG add the new 185.5 sounds to 185.2?
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In real life all the TRAXX 2 F140s have the same engineering plant and sound the same. The 185.5 is just the internationalized version of the 185.2. (However, the TRAXX 3 series (147/187) has different mechanicals and different sounds.)

    In game, however, the new Dresden 185.5 got a complete sound makeover which is infinitely better, and ought to be ported over to the 185.2s as well but hasn't been.
     
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  12. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

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    Thanks for that info.
    I love the sounds in 185.5, so I hope we can get those ported over to 185.2.
     
  13. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

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    Does this 187 come with the "last mile" function in TSW?
     
  14. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    No, because DB's don't have it, apparently.
     
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  15. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, the product should not have been released at all in this state. Sound capture is part of the modeling of a locomotive. It's perfectly understandable that due to the pandemic the developers were unable to travel and capture the sounds necessary. But then, they should've just shelved this project and said they couldn't do it because of this reason. It should've been postponed indefinitely, until the situation gets better. But deliberately taking an incorrect sound set and using that in the released product is not acceptable for a simulator. It would be in a mainstream, arcade-y game or whatever, but not here where authenticity is what the playerbase is interested in. This is a textbook case of financial goals being more important than quality. I blame Skyhook for this attitude, but I think DTG has responsibility as well, they allowed this to happen with their own game, while their own content have their range of issues as well. This just further erodes trust that future content will be held to a high standard of quality.

    Even worse, they knew this was the case and no one communicated this prior to release. There was no preview stream either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  16. AhhCaffeine

    AhhCaffeine Member

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    I don't understand their excuse by blaming the pandemic. Either (as you've said) they could've postponed it, but also you can't just use the pandemic as an excuse for everything. I suppose they could've found a solution if they really wanted, both for the travelling part via means of the vaccine or covid tests and the arranging the locomotive for the recording shouldn't be restricted by the pandemic either (couldn't see a reason for this).
     
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  17. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    So DTG announced they're not changing the sounds.

    ...and there goes a quarter of the sales.

    For me, it's gone from a 'must buy' to a 'sale only'. For many it's 'never'. They are making a big mistake here. It's almost like we've been transported back to 2015 with this sort of customer service. Eyes shut, head in the sand, refuse to do anything about it.

    It shouldn't have been released at all. No DLC is better than bad DLC, and it seems the hope we had in 2020 for TSW has vanished. As I said earlier, this is what you'd expect in 2015. The Class 91 had terrible sounds and was completely broken. Never fixed. The Class 321 was a crime against humanity. Never fixed. The MRCE Dispolok pack, a pack of reskins for badly made trains. Never fixed. Full price.

    It's unfortunate that pretty much every release for TSW2 since London-Faversham has been bad. When the best DLCs were released on 2019, you know something has gone wrong with the developers.
     
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  18. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    As soon as they update it, add appropriate safety systems, get the sounds right and add PSN trophies, it'll definitely be on my maybe in a sale list. :)
     
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  19. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    Above all, there are now almost no Covid measures in Germany, except for keeping a distance of 1.5 meters and a mask. As long as you are vaccinated, you can theoretically do everything you could do before Covid
     
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  20. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Some relatives of mine also had no problems travelling from England to Germany and back multiple times this year. But of course it's easy to blame the pandemic...
     
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  21. SkidMarkYT

    SkidMarkYT New Member

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    Even the headlights are incorrect. Bottom light's for reduced or normal operations, top lights for high beam. C'mon SHG that's just lazy. Look at the many thousands of pictures on google or videos on YouTube. Covid can't be blamed for every thing you messed up on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  22. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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  23. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Definitely taking us for fools. We are train enthusiasts - of course we’ll know.
     
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  24. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Good for them. Perhaps next time they could give DB a call and go and record some train sounds if it’s that easy.

    There are lots of people here that live in Germany. But we can’t all just rock up and climb over DB 187s whenever we like.

    I’m not buying it either, but it’s not easy getting the recordings without proper access.
     
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  25. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    You cannot defend the indefensible.
     
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  26. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

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    Not going to buy it even on sale unless they commit to fixing these issues
     
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  27. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    Some thoughts as I've read this this thread:
    A while ago, DTG finally realized we care about sound, and we got the "we need to do better" and I think generally DTG has done great on that (just look at Rush hour routes). But where they're failing, and it's not just sound, is enforcing a quality standard upon third party developers. I haven't bought anything from Rivet or Skyhook, but it's clear DTG doesn't hold them to any sort of standard other than the bare minimum for release.

    If I wanted the 187, yeah I probably wouldn't have known that the 185 sounds were used because I've never seen or heard one IRL. And in response to the "outside of Germany wouldn't notice" there's still Youtube, and I'm a sucker for a good sounding train, don't think I won't go and "virtual rail fan." But the fact that no one at DTG or on the beta team even raised an eyebrow at the sounds being the old broken sounds that have been a major source of complaint for over a year? WOW, just wow...
    Traveling to get actual recordings may be difficult, but there's other avenues. Did Skyhook even ask DTG which sounds they should pull as a substitute? Did they reach out to third party audio providers? Did they see if DTG could on their behalf?

    This just makes me scared for the Horseshoe curve route Skyhook is doing. The ES44 is my absolute favorite US loco, and I'm already expecting it to be poor quality with the AC4400 sounds (even though its a completely different engine and sounds nothing like that).
     
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  28. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget that it'll ride too high on the trucks and the rear truck won't be animated. Hope you're not looking for functional number board lights either.

    On a more serious note, between Cane Creek and the DB Br 187, I have serious doubts concerning Skyhook's ability to craft locos. Using the wrong sounds due to Covid is one thing, but the myriad of other issues the loco suffers from (see here) in addition to that is unacceptable.
     
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  29. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    You're right to criticise that, my apologies. That was based of an incorrect assumption on my part - and I'd moved from "just show it as it is" to acting defensive given the number of incoming hostile comments, which I shouldn't have done.
     
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  30. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    What is the potential of having skyhook at least update the current sounds to the fixed version of those sounds?

    Honestly the re-use of a sound file isn’t as much the issue at the moment, it’s the fact they’ve used the broken ported version from TSW 2020, which of course we had to make a lot of noise about to get corrected anyway.
     
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  31. Bradley

    Bradley Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I think you did a good job with what you had been given, it’s definitely not your nor DTGs fault and thought you did a great entertaining job on the stream
     
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  32. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    You did great, Sam. Really appreciated your directness. And yeah, this sentence was maybe not the best. But it's okay, in this quiet heated conversation sometimes people say things that are maybe not completly thought through. You have provided all the information you had and read maaaany questions. Thank for the stream, Colonel!
     
  33. neddyie116

    neddyie116 Member

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    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  34. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    From the statement they've given me that will be dependent on being able to secure a proper BR187 sound set. Switching to the newer BR185 set is certainly possible but I have no information one way or another on their intentions with that regard. We'll try to get a more formal update from them to send your way.
     
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  35. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  36. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    This is the kind of the point, it’s clear that we aren’t to be expecting the actual 187 sounds any time soon, but I really think that we should at least have the most up to date version of the current 185 sounds, seems silly to use the old, broken version.

    Thanks for your reply anyhow.
     
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  37. neddyie116

    neddyie116 Member

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    Yeah I totally agree!!
     
  38. Sheldon1000

    Sheldon1000 Well-Known Member

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    It's a poor show for a SIMULATOR. Shouldn't have been released in this state and if sounds were going to remain as they are, a statement should have went out BEFORE it went on sale. A preview should have been done before release too. I feel DTG should be more involved with the individual developers to ensure the quality of DLC being sold under their name, is of good quality and won't harm the company (DTG) in any way.
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I didn't hear that. What I heard Sam say is that Skyhook are hoping to get to record a real 187 and redo the sounds... at some unknown future time.
     
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  40. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    What ever your views on the sound and other issues, the fact that SHG failed to provide someone to do a preview and then agains didnt have anyone available tonight for the release stream looks bad.

    You cant dress it up any other, it looks like they are hiding away rather than face up and answer the feedback regardless if it is just a combination of coincidental events.

    Whatever your views are of the 1938 stock and rivet in general (and I arent their biggest fan) atleast they showed up and defended their product and in the case of Jasper held his hands up and said things needed looking at (namely the volume) and atleast said some of the other minor issues would be discussed internally. SHG on the other hands left it to DTG to defend their product and offer explanations.
     
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  41. dubsox

    dubsox New Member

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    Honestly, what I found insulting is Sam saying "any railfan outside of Germany wouldn't even notice". Yes, yes they do. I'm from the UK and have no idea what a 187 sounds like in real life, but the fact is the sounds they used are broken sounds copied from another train. I mean, they could have at least used the updated sounds from the 185 if they were going to copy any sounds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  42. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Active Member

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    If skyhood woul've openly communicated this with like
    "We aren't able to get sounds for now but we will patch them later on" it'd be something else, but with NO COMMUNICATION AT ALL it feels just not like they'd want anything
     
  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There I would disagree. Clinchfield is very good. Cathcart is very good. The 465 is excellent, as is the 101. And Brighton Mainline, though it has some small issues, is on the whole a really great route (certainly better than SEHS). Dresden also is very good, especially with the Meißen branch (although my potato PC struggles with the asset-heavy Dresden Hbf area).

    Boston is the only one which has really fallen down; just like with NEC New York and LIRR, DTG can't seem to get American in-cab signaling sorted.
     
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  44. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I feel like a broken record whenever this comes up - they most likely DID pick it up, Skyhook just didn't do anything. If an error or bug exists, it likely got picked up by DTG's internal beta team (if 3rd party stuff goes through them), but that means absolutely nothing if the devs don't/can't fix it.
     
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  45. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Active Member

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    Heh , I was thinking the same when it started sans skyhook
     
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  46. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

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    I took a bit of offence at that as well, however he did come here later and apologised for this comment (here in this thread), which I found very decent.
     
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  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    We (me particularly) could have been less salty during the stream as well (it's not like shouting there would have changed anything).

    And for that I feel like I should apologise as well
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Having listened through the stream now, I think some folks here are spot on with their criticisms, but others are rather too round.

    Covid seems to be dismissed right off the bat as a "cheap excuse;" but one has to keep in mind that doing a sound survey of a locomotive is not simply a matter of standing at a level crossing and switching on your mic when a train goes by, or even hanging about in a switchyard (assuming one isn't trespassing). A sound survey is like a photo survey for the 3D modelers, who climb all over a loco inside and out and take jillions of photos and videos from every conceivable angle. Even more complicated, because a photo survey can be done with the engine shut down; not so a sound survey, which has to be done in conjunction with a driver (with the full cooperation of the TOC) to record, from multiple points inside and outside, every machinery and audio state from idle to full-power acceleration to all variants of braking. And while ultimately visual modelers are copying an original, building a new thing out of pixels which replicates the real thing, and so can work from photos new and old, for sound you actually have to record the real thing.

    According to the email from SHG which Sam read, they originally conceived the idea of doing the 187 (in late 2019, almost two years ago), because they had contacts in Germany who could arrange a BR 187 sound survey. But then COVID hit. This was not just a general "well, people could have managed to get to Germany anyway" situation; COVID led DB to impose a ban, which is still in place to this day, on any outsiders being granted access to their nonpublic facilities. Additionally, SHG's contacts, due to the service and labour-force disruptions occasioned by the pandemic, were moved off of 187s to other locos and so that avenue has dried up.

    So I don't think it's fair to lambast SHG for not getting original 187 recordings. Act of God.

    However, I do think that they can be faulted for using the sounds they did. It's no secret that the post-TSW2 TRAXX sounds were the most hated in the whole franchise, and users have been on DTG for well over a year to fix them. Only just lately has there been a marginal improvement to the old MSB locos, and the completely revised and improved sound set for the Dresden 185.5. But then there's the rub- how could Skyhook not be aware of the issue, and why could they not use the new Dresden files rather than the bolloxed old MSB 4.23 port sounds? And it can't be said that they hadn't the time or fair warning, since the virus mess began over a year and a half ago.

    (They also can be faulted for not getting the technical markings right, just slovenly copy-pasting them from a 147)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  49. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    solicitr, you‘re talking about Skyhook, not TSG. There was no TSG involvement in the Br 187. Just want to clarify this point before misunderstandings happen.
     
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  50. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with a lot of the criticism being too harsh.

    However I still wonder wether continuing with the 187 project after it became clear that they had no access to the prototype would have been worth it.

    Did Skyhook really needed that instantaneous profit flow? They could have done what DTG did with the 313, put it on hold, focus on their US release and go back to the 187 once they had another opportunity, or at the very least, until they had some better sounds to use, DTG said that some of the most beloved sounds in the franchise are not recorded but made digitally, and vice versa. At least they could have tried something.

    They made it sound like: "ok, we can't get sounds (for actually legitimate reasons), so, we'll release an unfinished product with placeholder sounds (which BTW are one of the most hated sounds of all time in this game which just got remastered), but don't worry, maybe if we can gain access to a 187 even if our contact is gone, we will give you the real sounds which should have been there to being with, and no you don't get the remastered BR185 sounds because we can only redo the sounds if and when we get the real ones" and is exactly that attitude that made me refund the product, rather than its current state.

    Did they need this product released so badly? Or is this DLC just a victim of the sunken cost fallacy?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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