Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

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  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    OUCH! Complete brain-fart. Will edit.

    (Sorry, Maik!)
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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  3. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Active Member

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    Only a few hours after release. And skyhook had so much time...
     
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  4. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Active Member

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    If there was no Covid, Skyhook would have blame Brexit , if there was no Brexit they would have blamed the dog for eating the blueprints.
    :mad:
     
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  5. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No problem at all.

    But i would have been able to deliver 187 sound in any sort while the pandemic. That's really not an excuse (we all know that the pandemic is an excuse for so much right now). It would maybe not the perfect sound, but more to the original then. But no one was asking, what is not a blame. They might not know about the possibility. I always can try to manage some stuff to get Sound. I managed it to get fresh IC coaches sound while the pandemic. And also some other bits. It is possible. For sure there is no chance to do a recording session as usual at the moment at all. I doubt that this will ever be possible again at all. Only with some vitamin B.
     
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  6. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever thought about setting up any donation system? The BR187 really made me realise that your BR101 is worth more than 13.99€
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  7. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Active Member

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    I'd donate as well, so maybe, just maybe, give it a thought
     
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  8. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, if the modder were ready to work with Skyhook or DTG, then maybe the same thing could happen as with the Skymod that is currently on the roadmap
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You have a point
     
  10. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    If the 187 has been in planning since the end of 2019, I would be interested to know whether it was planned for Cologne-Aachen the whole time.
     
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  11. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't someone (DTG?) get in touch with the creator of the sound changes and Skyhook to purchase the audio files of the BR 187? Among other things, in the link above (and below) it says that the author of the audio files is using the BR 185 because he does not yet own the new BR 187. They could give him the BR 187 for free in exchange for the audio files and we would all be happier . I also speak for those who play on consoles and will not be able to benefit from the mod.

    Link: irFlouz's TSW 2 Enhancement Packs - Page 2 - Projekte - Rail-Sim.de - Die deutsche Train Simulator Community
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  12. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Active Member

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    They should hire him instead. Having done in a few hours what skyhood didn't manage to get in like what...
     
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  13. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Almost feels as if Skyhook threw DTG under the bus by not even bothering to show up for the stream and on top of that providing them with incorrect information such as which routes the 187 would substitute onto (Although we already knew via Matt's forum post the 187 would work on BRD but Skyhook for some reason didnt convey that to Sam before the stream....it all just came across as very amateurish)

    I hope one day they patch the sound for everyone but it looks like the PC userbase will have fixes sooner via mod/s
     
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  14. victor.malhard

    victor.malhard New Member

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  15. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I find it odd that a 3rd party developer is commenting on another 3rd party developers work and what they could or couldn’t do. I find it great that you could have got the right sounds one way or another . Could you explain why you would be capable of doing the 187 sounds but other 3rd party developers that created the dlc failed to do so? If what they said about the pandemic isn’t true, in your words “that’s really not an excuse.” a fellow 3rd party developer saying this contradicts what they have said about their own dlc.
    “But I would have been able to deliver 187 sound in any sort while the pandemic. That’s really not an excuse (we all know the pandemic is an excuse for so much right now).”
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  16. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Marklin has access to that sound because they're located on the Stuttgart Augsburg railway. Including a DB BW depot in Sttutgart
     
  17. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Even Sifa PZB LZB Voice prompts are wrong since it's a female voice different from BR182 Chris Lohner not Male voice 146.2 185.2 RRO Riesa Dresden DDR 185.5. For Skyhook Games if the pandemic is over get permission from Deutsche Bahn for sound recording at Bw Hagen Vorhalle RRO RSN SKA Koln Kalk and Gremberg & TS22 Mannheim Rbf .
     
  18. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Actually they all throw each other under the bus, to be honest at this point DTG would be better off not having 3rd parties create content for TSW2 even though that’s a lot less variety and content for us, with how I’ve seen some of this community treat these developers, and how it’s always the other ones fault. I think they should honestly just think about stopping it all after the already planned content releases which is sad but how DTG + developers don’t appear to communicate with each other this is going to constantly happen.
     
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  19. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    all skyhook had to do was reach out...that's it,that mod in development on rail-sim.de proves that.. Will it be perfect? probably not but it will be 100x better than what they've done now without a doubt. "yes but permission.." To be honest I don't know if DB or Bombardier gave permission to misrepresent their stock.
     
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  20. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    It's honestly comical how Skyhook operates things. I'm convinced they are trolling not only us, but Dovetail as well, to see how many negatively reviewed DLCs they can pump out before Dovetail does something. At the time of this post, the 187 has a 17% positive rating, and their previous DLC, Cane Creek with a 39% positive rating on Steam. If this trend continues, their next DLC might hit single digits which would be quite the feat. Bravo Skyhook Games, I applaud you for this experiment you are partaking in.
     
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  21. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    This all shows it is not really easy to develop content for TSW2. You need a lot of skills and you also need to feel quite well what customers demand. And all this for a Euro 14 retail price in a fairly niche market. I still can hear people complaining about not getting an editor, but to be honest, I think it is very hard to develop anything without professional support. Regarding that, we may need to support third party developers instead of throwing them under the bus for any stupid thing they do. If you don't like a product, tell it once and don't buy it, but try to be kind to the developers. They are not lazy, they have a passion and do what they can. It may not be enough into our opinion, but remember they are somehow squeezed between what we are willing to pay and having a decent living. I do not know much about the business case but:
    Tax Offices take round 20% VAT
    Steam takes about 30%
    DTG definitely will take some money, no idea how much but I would guess it is somewhere between 10 and 30%
    So you have Euro 2-3 to pay all expenses. A good developer will cost somewhere between Euro 500 and 1000 for a day work.

    This makes margins tight and you probably cannot afford to throw a developed DLC in the bin.

    Again, we may not like this loco and we may not like third party developers that jumped into TSW2, but for more variety we need them badly and let's not forget that.
     
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  22. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    LOL at the secret [well-known 3rd party] person hiding in plain sight on this thread :)
     
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  23. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but since this is the "PC Discussion" area, i think it is indeed very beneficial to most of this people in this thread.
     
  24. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    This!!
     
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  25. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Come on Skyhook! buy the sounds from the dude that's creating the mod and include those sounds in the game, you will get your money back in sales. There are a lot of people wanting to buy the BR 187, but won't happen until it's fixed.

    DTG gave the example using Armstrong Powerhouse sounds in their last DLC, I doubt it was free, those trains sounds are amazing and probably the best in the game.

    Armstrong Powerhouse got a lot of respect from the TS community, mostly because of the sounds.
     
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  26. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    They probably can’t. It’s been said on streams before that they have to own the copyright for the recordings.

    It’s fine making an unofficial mod, but putting them into a paid for product might not be possible.

    No idea how it all works. Just hope an improvement comes soon. If they do own the copyright, then yes, do it!
     
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  27. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    They should approach RSSLO to buy or license their original recordings, since they are pretty high quality. Or, just another thought, would it really be so difficult to synthesize the sounds?
     
  28. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    I really don't want to accuse anyone of laziness here, but have you ever looked at the options of the 187 in the scenario planner?

    Two, The Locomotive and a approximately 320 meter long mixed freight.
     
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  29. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    In terms of the 187 i'm a customer as like all others here. I can have complaints too if i want. They can easily complain about my products too if they want. I would have no problem with that. I learned that criticism, no matter from what side, helps getting things better, often. I never understood why a developer can't have complaints against other developers. If something not good, we should say it. And i would not lying when i mention there is a lot of saying at the moment :) There must be a reason somewhere. If you have a problem with me complaining other developers, ok, sorry, i will try my best to not do it again. I don't need to do it at at least, just want to help, in my special way :)
     
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  30. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Sounds are one of the veryh few things we "armchair train drivers" can count on for immersion. Using the wrong sounds is really something I cannot understand. Who decided it was a good idea? I certaily will NOT buy this DLC despite being interested in the 187, and I'll likely won't buy anything made by them in the future.
     
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  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, actually your perspective as an actual developer is much more helpful and insightful.

    We can say how we can't understand why X, or surely Y can't be that hard, but said from another developer those claims carry a lot more weight
     
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  32. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    And yet you don't find odd that a 3d party developer can release such a broken mess and insult the intelligence of the community with its excuses.
    Also you don't find it odd to make this comment about one of the most beloved and successful 3d party developer that spend hours over time to ensure his dlc's are top notch and managed to create in 2 days one fantastic sound revamp for the 145/185.
    Since many other add-ons where release and a ton of sound mods during this "pandemic" i would say that people that still manage to ride a train or create sounds on way or another are actually from another planet since this feat is "impossible"

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  33. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    A copyright for a noise? Never heard of this, I will make some research. Besides, in theory, if someone did it before you can't copyright the same stuff again. I know RSSLO did a BR 187 before with real sounds for TS, but who knows if they own the copyright. :|
     
  34. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    The (c) is for the the recording work itself, not the noises that the loco makes. A audio recording is handled like making music or doing video work or create a painting or whatever artistic stuff you get in mind.
     
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  35. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    In that case you could never claim a similar sound is your property. Then, they could buy the copyright of the sound already recorded, or in hypothetical case of Skyhook buying a modder's sounds that hasn't been registered yet they could register as theirs or give credit to the modder.
    I don't know how DTG made the deal with AP, assuming the AP sounds were copyrighted. Legal stuff is a pain.
     
  36. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    A (c) can't normally be sold at all. So what gets sold is a usage licence. AP grants DTG the usage via a licence paper and a payment for that manner. Nothing else. The recording and sounds are already APs copyrighted material. That is how it usually works. There are other ways for sure. You can go and record it yourself where you are (a station, besides the tracks, in a train ... or wherever) and it is basically yours in terms of copyright (you have recorded it). You need to take in account that there might be the possibility that you record already copyrighted material. That happes when you record station announcements in a train. Then you need a seperate permission to use them from their copyright holders. And so on. Complicated stuff tbh.
     
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  37. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Copyright (at least in the UK) is automatic - you don't need to register anything

    They probably asked AP if they could license AP's recordings, and then threw money at them.

    This, it appears, is one of the barriers to station announcements, because they need a license from the train company to use the announcements and maybe the style of the announcements (like how they're worded) in some cases, and a separate license from whoever voiced them and maybe even a license from whoever recorded them. Hence why they've said they're more likely to do custom recorded ones.
     
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  38. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. Now I know something new. :D
     
  39. DeJaPa

    DeJaPa Member

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    To be honest, I don’t get why we have to pay full price when it’s clearly not up to Skyhook’s and DTG’s standards. At least, given the bugs and missing sounds, decrease the DLC price. I think that would be fair in such a case.

    Meaning, if Skyhook or DTG would’ve come upfront about what we could’ve expected, and don’t tell me they wouldn’t have seen this coming, people wouldn’t have been as outraged as they were now. I think it’s important to be as upfront as possible to manage expectations at least a little.

    By no means do I have experience in being a community manager or a spokesperson for that matter. But I do know, that I appreciate honesty as a customer. And that’s where Skyhook IMO really failed. They could’ve stepped into the spotlight and said something yet they have deliberately chosen to remain silent. That inspires no confidence to us as customers at all.

    Also, unfortunately, I’m unsatisfied with DTG’s response as well. I mean, taking the time to respond saying ‘we do hear your concerns and we will pass them through’ while also knowing in what state the loco was in. Seems a bit like hiding from the truth. Granted it’s Skyhooks problem, but they’ve clearly made it DTG’s and I surely wouldn’t have taken a bullet for them, seeing their strategy.

    I am a disappointed customer, I can understand a lot and let a lot slide, but all I ask in return is honesty towards me as a customer. I don’t like it to be taken for a fool, and I don’t take that lightly as well. Unfortunately in this case I do feel like I was taken for a fool, due to the way things are handled. Which wasn’t necessary and could’ve been prevented.

    That all being said, I do wish people would be less toxic. That simply doesn’t help anyone. Try to be constructive at least, or just take a step back and once calmed down explain the reason why you are so upset. I’m sure that would make these forums a much nicer place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You're talking about some rather different things in one sentence. Simply being able to "ride a train" will not produce usable sound files. Sound surveys take a lot more work and time than that, and, most importantly, require the cooperation of the TOC- which in the case of Deutsche Bahn has been out of the question for the past year and a half.

    Creating sounds is a different kettle of fish. Yes, a clever bloke can synthesize nearly anything digitally. But it still isn't "real." For all the praise being heaped on the modder who has come up with alt sound files- do we really have any idea if these new sounds actually resemble a real 187? Or are they being praised simply because they're different from the old ones?
     
  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's universal throughout the Berne Convention countries (i.e. all of them, except Russia and China)
     
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  42. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Cathcart still has bugs such as bogus red lights coming out of Glasgow central and the nighttime lighting is not a universal TSW issue. It's particularly bad on Cathcart and way worse than other UK routes like SEHS and London-Brighton. The stations are literally in complete darkness.
     
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  43. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I find it quite annoying that the best DLC for TSW2 is made by DTG. In TS they made the worst DLC, but now it's the other way around. Either DTG have got their act together or something very wrong is going on with the developers. It's probably about time AP made something for TSW themselves. They can make utter crap, like the 455, Electrostar and Networker Enhancement Packs, but they can also make some absolutely beautiful DLC, like the 411, 205 and 37.
    I agree, which is why I said 'pretty much every DLC'. The ones you name are generally very good, but unfortunately for every good or great DLC there is also a dud. SEHS which you mentioned is one of the biggest disappointments for me, and is one of the few TSW DLCs that are genuinely worse than their Train Simulator counterparts. That said, pretty much every DLC for TSW since CSX Heavy Haul has been a downgrade, since it set a standard for scenery that very few routes have come to and none have beat. GWE is probably near it and the Meißen is also up there.
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    AP is making far too much money on TS1 content to bother with the much, much more labor intensive and profit-margin-reducing business of developing in Unreal. Especially since the TSW2 business model requires 3rd party developers to sell at DTG's set price, not the astounding markup AP charges for its TS1 stuff.
     
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  45. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Sadly you're probably right. Unfortunately the cost and difficulty for development is too high for many talented developers. AP and countless others will probably never release for TSW which is quite sad. Many of them could fill in the gaps TSW has, but never will. SimExpress could make French stuff; JustTrains could make large networks or metro routes; ChrisTrains could help with the Dutch stuff...
     
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The only thing which might tempt them in would be the equivalent of TS1 Pro: a higher priced DLC series open to the likes of AP- but which would be carefully vetted for higher quality to justify the higher price.
     
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  47. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    So let's say if you get a HQ video from the cab of that locomotive you cannot isolate some sounds to make proper loops for at least some sounds ? Auxiliary when idle, traction converters maybe some roll sounds. I know people that did this for TS with excellent results. Even if it's not perfect at least it's something than just throwing some horrible random sounds. You personally might not use sound mods but what people have achieved for TSW 2 is superior to stock sounds and it's also free.
    Regarding the BR 187 sound mod that is in the makin the traction converters and run sounds are pretty close to real recording at least from the exterior. You can see the video from the creators post and make your own opinion.

    Mod


    Real life
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  48. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    Can the misrepresentation of a locomotive actually cause any after-effects from the license company, in this case DB? I mean license revocation or something like this.
     
  49. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    The locomotive was previously manufactured for TS. The sound from this locomotive cannot be used due to the coding. And aren't the original audio recordings archived?
     
  50. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on the operator.
    IIRC they said that SNCF was particularly picky with the TGV, but actually shared a lot of information about the train to aid them make an accurate reproduction, and the end model was reviewed from them (and IIRC Matt said it got rejected a couple of times), also I believe TfL reviewed Bakerloo before release. Other companies like DB seem like they don't care as much.
     
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