Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

Tags:
  1. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    1,301
    I honestly doubt they care that much. It’s one train out of many. TSW2 generally presents DB quite well.

    Add to that that a lot of players just don’t play with safety systems switched on or have any knowledge of the real train. Even some quite popular YouTubers. They are never going to know it’s wrong.

    Remember that the people here often know a lot and are rightly complaining but they are likely in the minority.

    I’m in the middle I didn’t spot a lot that was wrong at first but once I found out, I couldn’t Unsee it.
     
  2. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    193
    For me the only thing that I find wrong with the sound, is the level should be tone down by at 80%, to be about the sam playable elvel as all the other train in all the trainset we have in TWS2

    Whether it is a German 101, 146, 185, 187, they are all exactly the same train, except for the number painted at the front
    Same for the 112, 143, 155 , the only one that is a little different is the 155 which has a steering wheel (why a steering wheel on a train ?????)
     
  3. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    162
    Hi, the creator of the mod here.
    I haven't actually modded the running sounds yet, the ones you can hear in the video are actually the vanilla running sounds. :P
    I might as well, once again, add that the 187 sounds differ between operators, the DB ones have a different sound than other operators, it more sounds like a 147. Here's a video to demonstrate:
    I didn't show the higher speeds yet because, well, they haven't been made yet. I am, just as Skyhook, missing certain recordings, but I will go out tomorrow and record them myself. Hope that it'll go well so I can finish the sound mod asap.
    Oh and also; I appreciate all your feedback, I will keep you updated here or over at rail-sim.de. :)
     
    • Like Like x 17
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  4. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    154
    This ‘opinion’ is just objectively wrong. Good for you if it allows you to enjoy the BR187, but anyone with clear eyesight and clear hearing will argue that those trains are not similar at all.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  5. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    193
    Thank you for calling me blind and deaf, I was just needing such confirmation in my life lately :)
     
  6. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    67
    I really apreciate the effort and the work you are doing, I hope it will be ready soon.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2020
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    728
    Thanks irFlouz for your great job.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2019
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    196
    Since I do not own and probably will not own the 187 for a while, I am not going to comment on the sounds. What is getting me crazy is the constant whining about pricing (at full price etc etc). This DLC is around 14euros - let's get a grip guys - you pay that for a burger and fries (maybe more if in a large city in Western Europe). The straight economic reality, which most developers and DTG evade, is that, if you want dramatically more effort put into development, then pay more (probably much more). It is not an easy problem, because, unlike myself, most gamers have multiple demands on their money - me, just trains and planes. I personally already lack the time to drive all the trains I have and should do as I do on flight simulators - fly the most realistic, immersive model, learn the routes as a driver would in real life and skip the rest. But that is most definitely not what DTG wants - they want you all panting for the latest DLC and some of you have an almost complete collection - what are you, drivers or collectors? Sorry if I appear impolite, but my preference would be for a far more complete model (albeit at a much higher price), but it would have to be as complete as possible, i.e. for German trains a fully modeled engine/equipment compartment, working Ebula etc etc. Unlike some, I could care less about gmrs radios, other than turn them on - who to talk to? Obviously, I am not holding my breath for this to happen.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    321
    Hello there, thanks for making time to post here. Your work its fantastic and already sounds really close to the real life 187, especially on the traction electronics sounds. I hope you will be able to make other videos showcasing your work as it reaches new milestones. I am curios how will you handle the sounds from the cab, are you able to also get recordings from inside ? Either way i am pretty sure you will do some fantastic work, probably the only reason that might convince people to buy this messy DLC.
    Regarding the difference in sounds between same loco but other operators i wonder why is that, since its modular could it have other electronics inside?
    Good luck with the projects and congrats for taking the task of bringing some justice to the BR187
     
  10. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    162
    Unfortunately, the 187 doesn't sperate cab sounds from exterior sounds. I will get some interior sounds from someone who works with 147s, however I probably won't be able to use them due to that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    321
    No problem. Could you make the exterior sounds slightly muffled and lower in volume to mimic the way you would hear them inside the cab and use this if no other alternative?
     
  12. mattfr

    mattfr New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    10
    This thread makes me want to take a shot at replacing the stock sounds of the 187 by those from Zusi. Is there a good guide out there to replace audio data of tsw? I did manage to unpack the files, but getting to open the actual files is proving trickier
     
  13. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,656
    Likes Received:
    2,364
    I can live when someone can record the 147 sounds because it’s the Sister Modell for Passenger Services from the 187.
    It has also the famous sounds.
    A recorded 147 want better as nothing
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    How do you turn on head/marker lights? I have the switch on the back wall set to lead and the headlight switch set to bright but they are off.
     
  15. mattfr

    mattfr New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    10
    I did want to record my screen as well, but for some reason it was not picked up.. Anyway here's how the lok sounds in Zusi:
    music to my ears
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    3,683
    I have to admit it sounds really good, I wonder if the Bombardier engineers were inspired by "Thus spoke Zarathustra" (Also sprach zarathustra), just to one up the Taurus.

    I believe the engineers have quite a bit of leeway when it comes to sound with these modern electronic locos, to make a higher or lower pitch sound they only need to change a bit the PWM frequency
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  17. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    After running the 187 why does it freeze when I try and go on the main menu?
     
  18. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    215
    Blimey , it really does sound like it
     
  19. w2sjw

    w2sjw Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2020
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    96
    Once you turn the switch on the back wall to 'auto', there is a set of steps that have to be completed in the right-side MFD. It's covered in the training scenario.
     
  20. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I have that on the panel all the way up to bright as well as the switch on the back of the cab switched on but they will not work, only the tail lights when the back switch is set to tail.
     
  21. victor.malhard

    victor.malhard New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    I gave up. Without any comment from the developers, I asked for a refund. I have never felt so disrespected for having bought a game/DLC...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  22. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    You have done very well. We can't reward the poor job they have done. 83% negative reviews on steam... Pathetic! The message we send them has to be loud and clear, we don't accept this standard of quality or the lack of transparency they have had with customers. The way to make them understand this is to affect their pockets. If they want our hard earned money, they should make an effort to deserve it.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  23. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    671
    Ouch....is this the first time a TSW product reached VERY negative?
    a06adcf3de6b21977db40aca8782ec5a.png
     
    • Like Like x 8
  24. whitus

    whitus New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    19
    I see some people being pure ignorants and saying that the 187 is like any other DB machine already in game. I’d love to see if the sound issue was about some british stock, how big of a riot would invade the forum?

    Just because you don’t care about making things right in stock from other country than yours, doesn’t mean that the work should be done inappropriately and sold for money to public. There’s no discussion that the sounds should be changed and improved. They’re just wrong. Period.

    I’ve felt weird during the stream hearing that „well, thats your opinion which always will be right”. Come on, the guy presenting it works for a studio that makes a train simulator, at the same time having clearly no idea about the stuff and trains he presents. Why is it so hard these days to admit that „yes, we fckd up and sounds are wrong, we’re concious of that”. Instead just mumbling and trying to make the whole thing like nothing happened. Why the priority isn’t in making all DLC’s as best as you can, instead you’re searching for reason to gain an approval in community for poorly made addons?

    Well, you see. I’m from Poland and that doesn’t make me not care about quality of representating the train DLC’s from other countries. If you’re a railfan, you should point out things done badly. Not being an ignorant.

    I’ve been really excited about the release of 187. But after several videos watched, nothing’s gonna make me buy it until the errors will get a correction. You may not care, but thats my right to think so and maybe begin to take your job seriously.
     
    • Like Like x 12
  25. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    671
    Yeah the downplaying of the issue by someone who's not that into trains ticked me off a bit.. "our reaction was extreme" yeah maybe it gets updated maybe not big deal.... Really?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    I don't really care about this locomotive personally, as I'm not into german stuff really, but I think the uproar of the community is pretty justified.

    I mean... completely reusing sounds from other trains in like... Trainz standard. And it's a lame move even among Trainz standards, and something you would only expect in freeware content. What's next? Reusing cabs from different trains? That's also pretty widely done in Trainz. If I pay ful price for a locomotive add-on, then I expect it to be unique. Unique not only in looks, but driving characteristics and sounds as well.

    It's understandable if they couldn't actually go there and record the real thing, but I can't believe there was no other option. Like synthesize sounds, use the recording from Train Simulator or at least modify the original 185 recordings to make them sound different, if you really can't get hold of actual new recordings.

    Even if you try to understand their side and their challenges, it's still simply something that you wouldn't want to pay money for. Then sounds aside, I've heard it got quite a few other problems as well. No wonder it got such bad reviews.
     
    • Like Like x 10
  27. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2020
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    728
    The sound is only the "visible" part of the iceberg, not to mention the problems of AFB (unusable), LZB (unusable), PZB (buggy display), etc. Quite simply, I don't understand that DTG's QA has agreed to release this DLC. After the first release of ArosaLinie, we were promised a real improvement in quality assurance with third-party developers, we can see the result. Finally, I'm afraid that this DLC devalues the TSW license and demotivates serious developers to join the adventure because players will be reluctant to buy from third parties (not to mention the harsh reviews that do not please when you is a company, even if it does not affect him directly, it will reflect on your work).

    Personally, if nothing is done to fix this DLC, I would not buy anything from Skyhook Games. And I admit that if a new developer arrives, I would be hesitant to buy these first DLCs because DTG will not play the role of barrier guard.
     
    • Like Like x 15
  28. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2021
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    686
    I do find it odd, yes! Considering they are in the same partnership with DTG making 3rd party content. Your post makes this point even more valid as he obviously is well known in this community as such. If I had business making 3rd party content for TSW2, you wouldn’t see me on forums saying another 3rd party developers “excuses” aren’t valid and how if it was me it could have been accomplished. You wouldn’t see me comment on any other developers dlc at all actually as I wouldn’t want to cause an issue. Although I appreciate the transparency as a customer, I think that’s just bad business practice especially when your talking about another developer working for the same company.
     
  29. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,486
    Likes Received:
    11,725
    It’s things like this which is why long term TS1 players are reluctant to move over to TSW.

    What sort of message does it give them when a developer thinks it’s okay to quite literally copy and paste sounds from one train to another, despite it being a completely different train?

    Not one word from Skyhook either. They clearly knew the uproar it would cause so they are unsurprisingly hiding away. Very unprofessional and I recommend a review of what has happened takes place.
     
    • Like Like x 15
  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    2,532
    Likes Received:
    3,379
    I think with the floating rocks , incorrect bogies and now the incorrect sounds skyhooks credibility among those outside casual gamers has plummeted
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I did not realise how bad this actually was. I assumed the fuss was more like how some complained that some of the same class 377 sounds were being used on the new 379 and 387 enhancement by AP when the sound of the inverters on the newer Electrostars are apparently different, although I can't tell by watching videos of them. However after buying the 379/387 I noticed there were noticeable differences in cab equipment sounds as well as a completely new set of passenger interiors to go with each livery among other things, on top of that those who previously purchased the other 375 & 377 pack were given discounts on the latest one. The BR187 has none of what AP offered in the Electrostar enhancement pack.

    I do feel stupid sometimes comparing TSW addons to TSC addons because of the extra features TSW addons typically have from interactable panels in coaches to the engine compartment on the EMD locos and outside engine control panels on the Metro-Cammel 101, I even sometimes find myself in TSW going through an entire train on a fault finding mission to figure out why the brakes won't release. This has very little to offer even with the extra features offered in the TSW system which don't even seem to work. I let the Cane Creek slide for having floating boulders on embankments and in the middle of the track since the rest of the route is nice to look at and I think the route is set in Nevada so floating boulders can simply just be blamed on Aliens trying to prank passing train drivers. I also let Lawn Mowing Simulator being unusable without Xbox or the latest Logitech controllers slide since support for Thrustmaster T150 may be added at a later date (you can't use keyboard as it steers way too sharply and you just cannot practically regulate speed) I am also not going back to using Logitech controllers as I have had two burnt out and one that started to fall apart after the casing cracked. But I don't think this DLC is just worth anywhere near the price I paid for it. Even for someone who has never seen a real BR187 in my entire life, I can tell how far off the real thing this really is. A complete opposite to the first time I ever saw an OMSI preview and though it was a joke because the sounds and Voith D851 behaviour was far too realistic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  32. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I originally thought the BR187 was a facelifted design derivative of the BR185 because of the little information about them on English language pages. But I know now they are completely different with a whole different VVVF-IGBT system too than the previous versions. I never once said any DB rolling stock was the same. I would assume there are more unique vehicles in Germany than the UK, especially road vehicles since the UK have been trying to wipe out classics recently and will probably turn on trains by 2030.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. whitus

    whitus New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    19
    Its not bad not to know. Its bad being proud of not giving single f about doing some research and think more before posting „well no differences to me”.

    Yeah, you don’t have to actually see one in real life to experience the difference to previous generation. You can actually open up (warning) YOUTUBE and (second warning) type BR187. Which is enough to get decent example of difference in sound.

    In terms of visual difference. Well it may be more complicated, cause then you have to type two locos in Google and then compare them to each other. Incredible.

    Yes, I’m half joking here, cause I can’t believe that some people writing this sort of ignorant rant believes its the proper way to look at world. Good luck then.


    Its not NASA sience to not have access to this sort of knowledge and resources, still some people seem to show that doing research is unnescessary and all people pointing out errors here are just bored gamers trying to find another reason to complain about.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    400
    If Skyhook Games doesn’t fix the sound for the DB BR 187, then I am unwilling to buy future products from them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  35. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    162
    Thanks to a very generous community member I have been able to get the 187 - making it easier for me to mod it.

    - Replaced all sounds from previous version
    - Added new sounds for higher speeds
    - Added new fan sounds
    - Modified files so the tones change at the correct speeds

    The next step would be to adjust the pitches of some sounds.
     
    • Like Like x 30
  36. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    3,683
    Stunning work, I'm sure some people will buy the locomotive just because this mod exists, given the disconnect between Skyhook and the community I'm guessing there are more chances of the next DLC release to be completely flawless rather than incorporating this sounds in the base train.

    The sounds are recorded by yourself right?
     
  37. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    162
    Yup, freshly recorded around 10 hours ago :P
     
    • Like Like x 6
  38. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,087
    Likes Received:
    2,713
    On the one hand i really want to have a good sounding 187. On the other hand i don't want to give Skyhook a Penny for this loco (I'd happily give the money to the mod author(s)).
    Before Skyhook at least hasn't fixed LZB, PZB, Afb, i won't buy it. Maybe after that. On a sale, i guess. But only because the work of the community.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  39. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    3,683
    [I deleted my previous post as this might be more useful]

    I know you already have done a lot of work for free, and I really appreciate what you've done. But given the fact the sounds are recorded by yourself you could try and reach to Skyhook and see if they are willing to adopt your sounds as standard, although I heavily doubt it, and I'm not sure if it's worth it.

    https://skyhookgames.com/contact/
     
    • Like Like x 5
  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    5,043
    Likes Received:
    6,247
    The fact that you were able to get decent sounds compared to skyhook says alot really. Maybe they aren't as passionate about this train

    You deserve a round of applause :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  41. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2020
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    728
    A pleasure to have a beautiful and true sound, we take pleasure in looking at this BR 187. Thank you for your great work.
    It's true, Skyhook will be able to thank you because thanks to you, potential buyers are available to them. Maybe it would interest them to work with you on this project and that you also derive some benefit from it.
    Personally, I had given up on the BR 187, but now I am thinking of going back to it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  42. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    450
    Great job. The sound of the locomotive is very nice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  43. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,656
    Likes Received:
    2,364

    Are you send this to skyhook please
     
    • Like Like x 1
  44. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I did not saying I don't give a damn about them, I did look for recordings but I did not get any results other than TP 185s. I was asking just what the differences are and said I thought they were similar then I just get called out because I don't speak German and couldn't read the information about them.
     
  45. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    3,683
    That's what I thought as well, on an ethical level I wouldn't feel good giving my money to Skyhook and use a free mod to make the train decent.

    But it's definitely not up to me to decide
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  46. whitus

    whitus New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2021
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    19
    But my words aren’t directly to you man. Its all good on my side.
     
  47. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I thought the 187 was a derivative of the 185 and similar as far as the information I had found considering the 185 186 and 187 was on the same Wikipedia page and had no details on the VVVF-IGBT equipment. Quick searches on YouTube revealed nothing of relevance due to the recent changes in algorithm that only suggest content from favoured channels. I asked what the differences are and get this, now I just got a YT notification this was commented on one of my videos with no other context but sounds like it relates to my last post here:

    Capturets.JPG

    Who is Cameron Grant? I did French in years 7 to 10 and Spanish in year 11 which was over 10 years ago. The only German words I know are whatever is written on the dashboard or blinds in OMSI. Bremse = Brake, Tur = Door, Ein/Aus = On/Off, Betriebsfahrt = Depot, Fahrschule = Driver Training, Schulbus = Prison Bus.

    Edit: Two notifications of a similar nature now, nothing appears on the video though. Whoever Cameron is is either deleting his own comments or getting bopped by YT bots. Just thought I have seen him before now as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2021
  48. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    671
    Thanks for your work, again it's left up to the community to fix it.. But skyhook is not.. Off the hook.. (sorry) they still need to fix pzb, lzb, afb
     
    • Like Like x 2
  49. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,087
    Likes Received:
    2,713
    Also interesting: There is a german train driver, who also drives the 147 (the sister of the 187). And he does Youtube as well.

    In this video, he tells us, that actually he had contact with Skyhook and sent them reference material AND sound recordings. So Skyhook saying "We didn't get any sound recordings due Covid" is just a lie. Pretty sad.



    If you turn the subtitles on, you can make youtube automatically translate it to english (or any other language). I really recommend you to watch it (this is no advertisment or something). He has the expertise of a real train driver as well as helping game development. It's pretty damning for Skyhook and even if there is a mod, i will not give them a Penny for the 187, before they improved the sounds (and PZB, LZB, Afb) themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  50. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    3,683
    Maybe he was "their contact" that: "was moved away from BR187s before being able to record sounds because of covid"

    So Skyhook:
    1. Didn't communicate this issue at all, neither with us, or to the CMs before release
    2. Couldn't bother/Puposefully didn't send anyone so a preview stream couldn't be made
    3. Lied on their official statement (if the above source is to be trusted). Happily blaming an innocent party.
    4. Didn't send anyone alongside Sam to talk about their own product
    5. Delivered a product which, BY THEIR OWN ACCOUNT, is not finished.
    I generally don't want to send personal attacks to a group of people or a company because I feel it's quite lame, but in this case I wouldn't be bothered if they just stopped making any TSW content. At least I won't buy any of it, unless they show how they turn by 180° and do something about this situation.

    TBH I'm starting to appreciate Rivet a lot more, if the bar is that low Rivet is going above and beyond with their work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 8

Share This Page