Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

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  1. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    He is. He also has instagram and stuff and also did some freeware projects in the german TS community. I'm watching his videos for years and even chatted with him. I don't see any reason why he should NOT be trusted.

    And yes, i really start to appreciate Rivet as well. At least we all can see now, that the rivet devs really love their work. Sure, still many problems but you see their dedication. It's not easy for a small studio, but i see a good future for Rivet. But Skyhook? That's just a shame.
     
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  2. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I saw that video as well thanks to li150special. I do find it baffling that they were in contact with him and still managed to make so many mistakes (not even counting sound). He said that he was never contacted for a beta, why not, Skyhook? How difficult could it have been to show him the completed work and get his input on any crucial mistakes? Besides, while it doesn't affect us players, I do think it was somewhat impolite to not even gift him a key for the loco. He spent a considerable amount of time and effort to get Skyhook research material and doesn't even get a Thank you in return.
     
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  3. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I really didn't know this company, I went to their website (https://skyhookgames.com/about-us/) Here are some excerpts:
    -"Welcome to Skyhook Games, we're here to lift you out of tricky situations"
    -"Your game art will be carefully looked after by our experienced team"
    -"If you're looking for the creation of realistic environments, props and vehicles, then you've landed in the right place."
    -"We continually demonstrate that our outputs match our promises."
    -"We bring experienced hands and a thoughtful approach to everything we do. We're always striving to do better and have open conversations to reach the best possible outcome."
    -"We are an organisation filled with passionate staff. We genuinely enjoy what we do, we are always keen to learn more and we put real care into each project."

    I thought it was funny about "We're here to lift you out of tricky situations" because with 187 it seems to be just the opposite with DTG. :D
     
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  4. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic work, the sounds are top notch. And that in just 2-3 days of work!
     
  5. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Interesting,so according to him he did some sound recordings in the exact way he was told to by skyhook, yet somehow they said they didnt have sound files... The shroud around this dlc gets shadier every day.
     
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  6. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    If this really is true, then maybe they didn't contact him for a beta in purpose so he doesn't have any inputs. I mean if he finds problems before release, then assumably they have to fix them. But this way they can simply say the problems just slipped through testing and they might fix it at a later date.

    I mean it's not uncommon to find people who do their work with this mindset. "It may not work so let's not test it", "Only fix it if they complain about it", I've heard quite a few statements like this during my work. So I wouldn't be suprised if they simply couldn't be bothered to make it better, so didn't even try to get input from testers.

    Of course, that's just an assumption and let's take this whole situation with a grain of salt, but still... if it's true, that's pretty lame. Even if it's not true, it's still a bad add-on anyway. It's a lame situation either way, when you work on something for more than a year and the community fixes it in a week.
     
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  7. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's actually the best conculsion i've read, yet. 100% true and i really really hope that DTG sees how this DLC is worse than anything that has been published for TSW before. Rivet's Arosa is a masterpiece in comparison to the 187. Not even sarcastic here :D
     
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  8. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    True enough. No matter what the explanation for it is, the 187 is probably the worst DLC released for TSW quality-wise. And the fact that Skyhook have still not initiated communication with the community in any way (even just a standard response along the lines of we‘re aware of the issues but can‘t promise anything) doesn‘t do them any favours. All we‘ve heard is their statement for Sam which was not even meant for publication.
     
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  9. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I am starting to notice SHG are following a trend a lot of companies are now following where they will aim to gain profit by aiming for new customers rather than retaining old ones. It is just like those I have seen videos of who bought Tesla cars when they started to trend about five years ago who are now getting charging system errors or other electrical problems. All of a sudden Tesla are unable to fix them, no independent mechanic will touch them and they are looking to spend £10K for repairs or end up with a rather expensive driveway ornament. Hoovie's Garage, Scotty Kilmer and multiple other YouTube channels will even back this up. When SHG have enough out of TSW they move to LMS to target customers from Giants Software. I think more companies should follow the Japanese standard of putting pride in to their work! I have never heard anyone who has owned a Toyota, Mazda or Honda vehicle say they would be reluctant to buy another one.

    Although I did not catch the live streams as they were on at the same time as Kitboga and I tend to like a bit of surprise when I buy new DLCs (although not like this) so I don't want the streams to spoil it too much but it sounds like they have thrown DTG under the metaphorical BR187 by what I have read. I don't even watch any previews or trailers from Armstrong Powerhouse before buying any enhancement or rolling stock packs as soon as they go on sale and I will continue to do so because I know his stuff is of top quality, but now I don't think I can buy any TSW content from now on without watching a 3rd party review on it even if it ends my "full house" collection of TSW 2 DLCs.
     
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  10. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Comparing someone of suck reputation and quality like AP to Skyhook is like comparing a Lamborghini to a trash compactor. There is a 3d party developer for TSW2 that does have the same reputation like you would expect from AP or JT etc,namely TSG (powered by Virtual Railroads)
     
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  11. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Good luck getting new customers with content that is flagged with "very negative" on steam...
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That isn't a fair comment, because it ignores the legal realities. Skyhook and DTG have to get licenses for sounds, which modders don't (technically they do, but nobody sends lawyers after modders)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  13. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Which route of the 2 announced US freight will be made by skyhook?

    I hope dtg is making a hard point about quality control to them.
     
  14. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook is developing the Horseshoe Curve.
     
  15. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    He recorded those himself, I can't see what the legal problem is at this point.
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Did he do so with DB's consent?
     
  17. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to get anything. Who records the sound, is the owner of the sound, the same as you are the owner of a picture / video of a train that you made. Also the license to create the BR 187 would include everything to it , as its not a license to only do the paint or wheels
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That isn't necessarily true. For example, the ICE3 has been trademarked by DB; even if you make your own picture or video of one it can't be used commercially. The same applies to the Class 800 series (trademarked by Hitachi). And even in the case of things which are in the public domain, as I assume the sounds of the 187 are, one still has to be able to prove that they weren't obtained illegally, such as by trespassing on railway property.
     
  19. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify this. TSG has nothing to do with virtualRailroads nor is powered by it. It was more the opposite a long time :D
     
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  20. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    You have to have the right to record the sounds. As said above, you can't just capture something and then sell it for profit, the person making the sound/image/experience, has to agree to it being monitised. And if you think about it, why would they? Someone is going to sell a product (DTG) in larger volumes because the sound is more realistic. Sound that was captured from your particular assets without your consent...

    It also falls next to the licencing because although the locos are DB locos, they were made by Bombardier, which might not be a party to the DB licence...although i notice the wordmark is on the front of the 187. Is the sound of a Bombardier made and DB owned loco the property of the listener, Bombardier or DB, or some combination?
     
  21. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You would be perfect in a dictatorial regime, i bet that the rules are right at home in North Korea. I think there are numerous posts on how licensing works on this forum.

    The train driver or a person can record whatever he wants and own full rights on the recording. Check youtube for thousands of cab videos for example.

    I like how you keep trying to find excuses against people that work hard and offer free and high quality mods for the community. Keep it up ,
    Also i didn't know you work for DB's legal team questioning people of consent for creating audio recordings. Further more you are also questioning a real life train driver that created the recording on his locomotive (147).
     
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  22. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry for the confusion but i did understand that you where a part at least of VR and also created the TS BR101 for VR among others. Sorry for the confusion again :)
     
  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In general it isn't intellectual property at all; one can copyright "creative works" but not merely functional things. However, it is possible for something to be trademarked by any of the above; DB (the TOC) have trademarked the ICE3, and Hitachi (the manufacturers) have trademarked the Class 800. This doesn't happen automatically like copyright does, but by affirmative act (registering a trademark with the appropriate government office).
     
  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So bascially skyhook lied and used covid as a cheap excuse. Frankly skyhook doesn't deserve a penny for this. It's a shame dtg probably won't hold them to account either. At least rivet has shown that it's willing to improve with west cornwall. If this is what skyhook will continue to do then I'm not sure they should continue to sell dlc's.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Neither can i
     
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    North Korea, as a Marxist state, doesn't recognize property rights. That is a hallmark of free societies.

    I like how you keep trying to find excuses for getting Free Stuff which may be someone else's property, the law be damned.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Could they legally use those sound files?
     
  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Why would he need to have DB's consent? It's a Bombardier loco, for all we know he might have recorded a Railpool one or any other AC Variant.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Is that even a question.
     
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, DB Netz owns all of the trackage in Germany, so the issue of potential trespass arises; also, because the recordings actually came from a 147, and I believe DB owns all of those.

    Note that SHG/DTG would have to have *positive evidence* that the sound recordings were obtained legally; the burden of proof is on them.
     
  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  32. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Unless Bombardier gives you its sound recordings for the locomotive and you use them commercially there are no legal issues. I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble because they have recorded and used the sound of a train or locomotive. As the 3d model is something palpable certain , the sound is not and neither it can be recreated on a 1:1 scale neither proved to be the same.
     
  33. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but neither DB nor DB Netze has any saying about those sound files. I could understand for trains like the ICE3 or the TGV, but not for a Traxx. DB is just one of many operators.

    Would you need a Ryanair or Southwest license to record a 737?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  34. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Remind me of why the plane in BML is so badly modelled?
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You would need to be able to show permission in writing from the owner of whatever airport you were making the recording in, unless you were in the terminal (from where getting a decent recording would be very tough). Or Ryan Air (etc) if you somehow got into the cockpit. In the case of a train, there is no way to get a full set of loco sounds unless you are either in the cab, or in the railyard. And you have to be able to prove you were there with permission.
     
  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Good catch. To avoid IP claims from Boeing and Airbus.
     
  37. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I see what you mean, but I still believe in this case it still wouldn't be a problem given the wide availability of this rolling stock all around the world, no party is getting hurt if those sounds become public.

    It's different for other things, like I understand if cab views POVs have to be approved by the train companies, or close up shots of every detail of the locomotive (which could be seen and industrial espionage), but especially given the relaxed way DB seems to take this sort of things (they didn't care when DTG did their first TS routes with unlicensed DB stock) I really don't believe it will cause big issues, same for Bombardier, which already has to deal with a completely unlicensed almost 1:1 copy (thanks to Skyhook's incompetence) of their locomotive.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  38. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Lol, people here claiming that the manufacturer or railway company has copyright ownership over the sound a train makes... Ridiculous. Imagine Mazda going on YouTube and copyrighting millions of "RX7 brap brap sound compilation" videos. You can have copyright over creative works, like music, melodies or speech, but not over a goddamn functional sound. If you could have, then noone could make car engines as they all sound the same, or noone could make trains as they all make clack-clack noises going over junctions...
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think skyhook would've gotten in trouble either for using sounds that they were offered so this whole legal notion brought up by some is just ridiculous. Shame they used covid as a cheap excuse too. If this was the case for every train in the world, then railfans recording trains wouldn't be a thing. Modding in ts probably wouldn't be a thing either since a manufacturer would go after modders putting a train's audio in the game.
     
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  40. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Agree. Even a 3D model can be used without any license issues as long it has some minor differences from the real thing and does not use any clear branding, imagine how it would be to require a license for something so less defined and common as sound.

    Also this thread is about the BR 187 so please stop talking about nonsense , if someone is feeling like a lawyer go on the appropriate forum and embarrass yourself there.
     
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  41. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

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    All replaced sounds heard in my last video were recorded at train stations - and the station rules from DB Station & Service do not prohibit audio recordings like in this case, only commercial photos, video- and TV recordings without permission (see 2.6). If you, for some reason, really want proof that I recorded these sounds at stations and not in yards/cabs/whatever, I have recorded the sounds with video. I won't talk about copyrighted train sounds (like, really?), that should be obvious. Also, keep in mind that I am German, so German law will apply to me and my work, so it might be different from the laws you have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  42. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    To end this pretty pointless discussion: Yes. At least in his video he says that everything he did in terms of providing material happend with consent. So SHG definitley had the chance to use the sound recordings. Of course we don't know how good those recordings are. But in his video he says that he recorded the sounds in the way SHG wanted him so record it.
     
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  43. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This makes me super sad. I haven't bought a single Skyhook DLC (and I originally wanted both as I'm familiar with real-life counterparts for them), I was cautious after Rivet. And I really wanted to get Horseshoe with GEVOs... but as long as those who bought 187 and Cane Creek won't get them fixed... pass.

    So hear, hear, Skyhook. You fix those two DLCs, I buy them and Horseshoe no discount needed. Otherwise not a single purchase from you. Show us your customer relations.
     
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  44. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to explain yourself to someone that has no right to ask justification. You could record sounds by traveling under the train, or traveling on the loco roof with your toque on the catenary, its no ones business to ask you how you did something.

    Just continue your fantastic work and ignore any explanations request from people that lack both manners and common sense.
     
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  45. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    About the plane model... Look up Project wingman on steam, real plane models, just removed logos and real names, no legal problems, also scs, in ets2 there's a 186 driving about, does scs have a license for that from bombardier?
     
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  46. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    In ETS you also have TGV and a lot of other trains. Also all traffic cars are based on real life ones without the real life logo.
     
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  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't claiming that; you need to read more carefully. In the case of sounds the issue is whether they were obtained legally.
     
  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Untrue.
     
  49. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I think we should also talk about the AFB because it seems to be a real mess.

    Go to minute 13:30 and see what happens when I set the speed from 40 to 90. Also note that once activated, the AFB cannot be deactivated. Or maybe everything must be set from the onboard computer?



    Can anyone tell me if DTG/Skyhook are working to fix the problem or should we have some good modder do this too?
     
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  50. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    Yep, that happens to me every time I get a large increase in line speed - it's like I'm running on grease...
     
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