PC Branded Vs Unbranded Trains

What are your guys thoughts on the potential/option of seeing unbranded trains and rolling stock in TSW?

Personally, I’m all for it. I believe that if DTG and other developers can get away with recreating a very similar livery to the proper, real life one (minus the logos and branding of course) then it’d open a library of different looking liveries on rolling stock, as well as being to develop the actual trains.

With obtaining the proper licensing, this is obviously a lengthy and complex process and I believe this limits potential development of trains for TSW quite dramatically, which in term limits the available choice of rolling stock available for us players to buy. This is already pretty much seen as there is still a substantial amount of liveries and rolling stock missing from TSW.

Yes, there is livery designer, but let’s be honest. The way it is now is that it is very limited in terms of what you can do with it, as well as how you can distribute it in terms of applying different variants to certain locos/rolling stock. Such as a specific livery for one certain loco, for example.

What other companies and developers do is they provide a very similar livery, if not the same one, to their assets (minus the branding) and then the developer and or/community create a branding patch after (sorry console players) This is often seen in Train Sim Classic as well as OMSI Bus Simulator.

As long as everything else is still accurate, such as the physics, sounds, timetable etc, then I think I’d prefer a larger variety of train and route DLCs to with it being in a semi-fictional livery vs only having a very small library where everything is perfectly real life looking*

*even now DTG do not provide variants with their official liveries.

 

It doesn't really matter if a trains branded or not. As long as the livery is a close match, I doubt 9 out of 10 players would notice.

Then how far can you go before being guilty of copyright! Could you get away with southwestern trains for example?

 

Rivet’s IOW custom made branding looked quite acceptable and familiar to the real life thing so I believe they can get quite close to it looking like the real life thing, without it breaching anything copyright laws.

 

To me it depends how well. I recognise it. For example The Island Line 2022 - I never knew the original livery, so it doesn’t really spoil it for me that it’s not accurate. However over on TSC playing South Wales coastal with unbranded trains, that just looks wrong to me despite the colours being correct.

Generally I’m in favour of accuracy, so prefer branded trains.

 

I support authenticity. When I buy a DLC I'm buying the true-to-life brand which comes with it. Having said that, Modders are perfectly capable of adding logos to posters and trains once the unbranded route has been released so I guess I have mixed opinions.

 

I don’t mind unbranded trains AS LONG AS the end goal is to get the license.

 

for me is not a problem if dtg add for example the RER A and all branch of the route could be something interesting or unbranded lines

 

They can try to get every licence possible, doesn’t mean they will actually acquire them.

 

Many people gave poor reviews on steam for island line 2022 for it being unbranded when it first came out. I know it's a rivet product but I bet if dtg went unbranded, then people would notice. Some people would see it as dtg being lazy and stuff so I would prefer the correct branded livery especially if it's a train I know. But at the same time, I wouldn't care too much but for those who take it seriously, I think branded licensed liveries are the right way to go

 

Me too I don't know why people really always ask for real licenses

 

I don't mind if a train's unbranded, and certainly don't want to see developers shying away from particular routes/eras because they can't get the licence. I just want them to get as close to the correct livery as they can without breaching copyright.

Unbranded trains are quite common in real life in any case, certainly in the UK.

 

it's always good to have real licenses in a game, however it's a break for TSW like in Belgium or the Netherlands

 

yes and in France too for example with the AGC and new train model there are (was) a neutral livery

 

I just think it would be a turn off for me because I am buying this game for authenticity and unbranded trains (when they should be branded) were one of the reasons I never got into TSC.
I just think that the letters on the side of the train whether they be LNER, GBRF or whatever company the loco/unit works for are what gives that train an identity and it would feel wrong seeing a 66 in GBRF colours but not have the large letters across it's side or an Azuma in the full livery but without the Azuma or LNER branding.

 

Just for context, what about the other 72% of voters? Was the majority in favour of or against fictional routes? Personally I find fictional routes more fun (mainly for free(er) scenario creation in Train Simulator).

As for unbranded trains, I don't really mind, as long as the fake liveries aren't ugly like JustTrains' dreadful Marsdonshire Railways livery. The Isle Of Wight '22 livery was quite a good one - a GTA car of train liveries, close enough to be recognisable and different enough to not get an email from First and MTR's legal departments. Similarly ChrisTrains' Stadler RS1 Seebergbahn livery is based on a real livery but different enough to not need a license.

What about real cases of unbranded liveries being used, such as TransPennine Express using unliveried 802s during their introduction?

 

I prefer real life routes and liveries. But it doesn't bother me if they are offered.

I just won't buy them, I don't enjoy US frieght all that much. So I just don't buy those routes. I own SPG and Cajon Pass because they came with the base games, and I bought Sherman Hill and Horseshoe Curve on sales to give them a shot and I have tried but just can't get into it.

I got TVL and NTP, but I don't seem to like older stuff. So I don't have WCL WSR, or diesel legends and the older British loco DLC.

I got SOS but I don't think I enjoy steam because I hardly touch it. So right now I know I won't be running out to purchase any steam add ons in the near future.

But thats fine. I understand the the sim is not built just for me, but a broad audience so there will be DLC that I won't purchase and I'm quite happy with that.

And its not that I have to pick and choose. I have done well for myself so I'm fortunate that I can afford to buy what I want.

 

Yeah as long as they fit into the era and the other trains have correct branding.
If you read my post again you will see in the brackets that it is when trains which should have branding don't have it I get frustrated.

 

Though with TSC, there is a massive (unofficial) library of livery patches and branding mods you can download if the product is released unbranded.

 

I understand the argument that with obtaining the proper licensing limits potential development of trains for TSW quite dramatically but, at £29.99 per DLC, I want to see the closest representation of reality possible. This includes branded trains.

In future, proper licensing could well be a limiting factor for rolling stock but for now I feel it's more due to development costs and schedules. We more often than not only see one new train per new route and I highly doubt that output would increase if the trains were unbranded.

 

Yes but this isn't possible in TSW though so can't be applied to this situation.

 

I don't mind if the branding is fictional, but close to real, like the IoW 2022.
Given that branding will be a BIG factor in the cost of the route.

But at the same time, totally fictional liveries or unbranded ones aren't what I'm after.

I liked a TSC route that was fictional, but it had some interesting scenarios, but ones like the London Underground heritage route was awful.

 

Fictional routes and unbranded liveries are a hard pass for me. When I play a simulator, I want realism, not fantasy. It’s already annoying for me that we’re missing proper manufacturer’s branding on locos due to licensing. It’s quite simple for me, really. If a train has DB on its side, I want the simulator loco to have DB on its side as well. Anything else breaks my immersion.

 

I personally care quite a lot about correct branding. It should definitely be possible given the amount of licenses DTG has and the amount of money we‘re paying for DLCs nowadays.

 

I will usually pass on unbranded locos. The only ones I bought in TSC were quickly branded by a third party modder.

I can't see running a CSX, UP or BNSF route with unbranded liveries. It would be anti-immersive and unauthentic for me.

 

April is still far away, just stop thinking about releasing trains or locos without licenses or brands.
My personal opinion is: No license, no soul! You know what I mean (at least I hope so).

 

This is one good question and in some cases, a licenced TSW 3 operator like DB & OBB will send an unbranded train to run their services if applicable to do so.

 

Well, it can be on done on PC, such as with the branding patch for IoW2022. And while real brands are banned from the creator's club unless whitelisted, DTG do not have the capability (and likely want) to remove every branded livery on there.

What in particular made that route awful for you? I really enjoy it, mainly down to the scenery which I find among the most beautiful in Train Simulator, although I do miss the narrow gauge and tram networks from the original Phorum Peninsula.

 

I just remember it being a boring route, it probably didn't help I don't like the TSC career mode, so I also didn't really get much use from it and eventually got it refunded.

 

It would be the same for me as well I would much prefer real life branded routes, I would pass on anything that is fictional I just wouldn't find it interesting.

 

I completely agree correct branding is important especially given what we are being charged for content these days.

 

Nope, wont touch it as far as US content is concerned, granted it sucks for modern passenger stuff, but DTG has alot of licenses at play that it wouldn't be necessary for them to do any unbranded US content (Aside from commuter lines shared with Freight or Amtrak).

Only one I would allow is Japan, as it seems like the JR groups haven't allowed any branding for DTG yet via Union Workshop, so that gets a pass.

As far as fictional route, guess it depends on the context, IE the Holiday Express is a decent idea on paper, but I wouldn't want to drive a fiction US train semi-based around somewhere. Give me real brands on real routes.

 

There may be some very important content that can’t come because the license can’t be obtained. This may be the case for some of the most requested routes that can’t be done justice because some of the traffic that makes it busy enough can’t be licensed, or can’t be done at all because the main focus of the route can’t be licensed, I don’t think unbranded trains stop it being a worthwhile simulator. Even the fictional routes if done well will still be a good simulator experience, just a different one.

Soon there will be many more rotes coming out as more and more third parties start producing content. There are four new third party devs making routes at the moment. There may well be an actual need for unlicensed content at some point if enough suitable trains are to be included, especially with UK content, but not just limited to there.

 

Unbranded trains - maybe, if they resemble the real livery.
Fictional route - definitely no.
Derail Valley is a case for me in this regard. It looks and feels good driving the trains (physics wise), but I lost my interest knowing the routes are completely fictional. Same goes for Training Centre in TSW. I used it only to complete the tutorials, but otherwise have yet to explore it. It just doesn't seem that compelling to me, knowing it's a fictional place.

 

Not going to touch unbranded content. Did not with the IoW 2022 and will not in the future.

 

There's probably enough of content potential and variety with the existing licences not to have to worry about releasing content with unbranded/fictional liveries for a long time to come (and that's not to say they won't obtain more in the meantime).

However, some of the notoriously difficult TOCs to licence in the UK (e.g. Northern and Greater Anglia) does perhaps rule out modern content from these regions, which is a shame as there are lots of good route options in these areas.

I wouldn't mind seeing certain backdated TOCs, e.g. South West Trains instead of South Western Railway.

Having the correct licences also allows for branding on stations, posters, signage etc. which all helps increase immersion.

 

I don't mind as long as it feels realistic. I would not like completely fictional routes, but I do not mind to use some imagination to enhance the gaming experience. Cane Creek is a good example, with one train a week it is not fun to play, so they made the route very busy with say 20 trains on a day. Teh same thing for Ruhr-Sieg Nord. I would not mind to reopen the Elverlingesn Powerplant for TSW, just for fun. On the other hand, for Oakville it would not be a very good solution to use the branded californian trains, even though the train types were used there. It that case I would prefer an unbranded livery as a compromise. Maybe put it in a separate layer and make it possible to turn it off if you don't want that.

The thing is, I never visited most areas where TSW routes are set.I have never visited and probably will never visit, so I do not care about 100% realism as long as I can believe it might be realistic.

 

Might as well say "Well close enough physics is good enough". It's either real and correct (and you're paying for it) or it's not

Community mods are all well and good but many of them are also incorrect or just "naff".
DTG should stick to as close to the real thing as possible with proper licensing, and the modders should remember that whenever they produce something "authentic" they're possibly endangering proper licensing down the line as companies look at "what's already out there" and decide they don't need to (or don't want to) proceed with a license path

 

Maybe dtg should call it logo sim world if you guys are more interested in the logo's than the trains.

 

The logos and the trains come as a package... Else why bother making realistic trains at all?

 

The trains are realistic without the logo's. Would you even notice if a southern liveried train shot past you with southeastern written on it instead?
A few decades ago when network southeast liveried trains had swt wrote on them, was that a problem? Or southeastern trains in the connex livery?
The 377 in southeastern livery with the southern interior, is that not acceptable?
Is it no longer a train when you remove the brand?
What about the 707's underneath its not really a southeastern train is it, it's still a train though.

When I'm sitting in the cab of any train and driving it I can't even see it! Most of the trains that pass I can't see the logo on them either. If you drive in external veiw you can't call that realistic, like how many trains do you see in real life where the driver is hovering along beside it?

 

Yes, dependant on the location. There's a green electrostar that often comes through Gillingham (where otherwise it's all blue boxes or white networkers) and I notice it every time

Those liveries were accurate for that period though...

That's not what's being discussed. If they put a 700 out in southern livery or ran a southeastern liveried 170? That's more on point

That just means you're not paying attention...

I think the point here is that FOR YOU these things don't matter. For me they DO matter, but not so much as it would spoil my enjoyment of the game, but these things SHOULD be as close as possible rather than saying "well it's good enough". And that's mainly because for me that's a slope I don't want to see started.
The Class 150 is "close enough" if what you're interested in is a train that looks right. I mean the physics, acceleration, sounds and braking are all off, but it's kind of OK... right?

 

When I mentioned the southeastern liveried 377 before you said you had never noticed it, even though its the wrong shade of blue and has a grey roof and green seats inside!

 

I'm still not sure how this is relating to DTG producing realistic liveries and logos as opposed to not doing so...
With regards to the comment above I don't think I'd seen that unit at that point. But the one which is green on the outside stands out more

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about it until I see some more fake liveries. The IOW updated livery is pretty decent, I was a bit miffed we wasn't getting a real livery but after playing it, the fake one is fine, and the livery designer enabled a decent copy of the real one.

Avanti ran at least one (I'm sure there were more) Pendolino with an all-white, no Avanti branding livery when the whole fleet was transitioning from Virgin to Avanti. I think that if DTG or a third party can do a good fake or close to real livery then I wouldn't be too fussed. I drive trains because I want to drive them, a licenced livery is an added bonus.

If good fakes or unbranded trains means we see more new content then I'm all for it.

This thread is a mixed bag of opinions, and I expected nothing less. No matter what DTG decide upon, some will be happy, and others won't.

 

As others have said, it really is dependent on how well it's done.

If its a real route but a ficticious liverly to get around licenses, sure, fine.

If its a fake route and fictitious liveries, then more likely a hard pass

 

Yes, however it can't be applied to TSW's situation as about 2/3s of the community don't have access to these sorts of patches. Livery designer would need serious modification as although you can download these liveries there is absolutely no consistency in when they will appear so it too wouldn't be a solution.

 

Of course, it would be wrong of me to miss the opportunity to point out that there is a simple solution to this whole branding and licensing issue.

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Personally, I'd rather trains have the proper liveries rather than unbranded workarounds.

To me, this topic comes across as "PC players can use mods, unbranded trains are fine because we can patch them ourselves". This isn't a good outcome if console players end up with lots of fictional liveries while PC players happily enjoy their properly branded trains by working around the copyright. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Armstrong Powerhouse get into trouble with Virgin for patching in the branding onto their content?

If it means proper branding on trains for all platforms, then I'm happy to keep things as they are. I prefer official liveries/brands to come from DTG, I don't really like using Creator's Club as there's no control on where custom liveries appear. I'd like to use no custom content in timetable mode and keep the Creator's Club stuff exclusive to scenarios made with scenario planner.

The only acceptable compromise for unbranded content is if DTG continue to pursue the official brand after a DLC has been released and then update that content with the proper brands. This is a last resort opinion though.

I'm hoping Rivet will work to get the proper branding for IOW '22 and update that.

Edit: As for fictional routes, I don't really want to see them become a regular thing. Holiday Express was a bit self-contained fun for Christmas, I wouldn't mind seeing a similar DLC with a Halloween theme. The only full length fictional route, I'd legitimately be interested in would be Sodor solely based only on the books, history, map and notes by Rev. W Awdry. Nothing to do with the kids TV show.

 

The point is if you can't notice a train that's the wrong colour in real life then why would a train in the right colours with the logo missing on tsw matter?