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Brighton To London - (lack Of?) Thameslink Services?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Aug 6, 2021.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    One thing that has been on my mind since the announcement of this route is what the route is going to be like with the lack of Thameslink services?

    Thameslink services aren't mentioned as coming with this route, therefore they will be missing. The Thameslink services have a pretty significant part of this route, as up to 16tph pass through Gatwick Airport (8tph in each direction). They use the Class 700s.

    Some questions I have:
    - Will the Thameslink services be subbed in by SN 377s? (Not accurate but fills the gap)
    - Will they just not be included?
    - How will this affect the amount of adverse signals around this area and the route if they won't be included?


    A typical scene at Gatwick Airport:
    upload_2021-8-6_21-2-20.png
     
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  2. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Lots of people complained when there was no new services with the 465 because those services were included to add to the density of trains and so forth - it can't go both ways :) No, i'm not confirming there will be a Thameslink pack, but if we put the services in we are guaranteeing negative feedback if we *do* do it.

    There will be lots of services. Don't worry. Frankly, Joe's timetable is ridiculously busy and makes all the ones i've ever done look like a sunday afternoon job :)
     
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  3. Tay95

    Tay95 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking the Class 700 could just go from Brighton to East Croydon and then go off the map towards London Bridge. It would certainly make this route more realistic
     
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  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That's what they do in real life, so it'd be highly realistic if a 700 was to be made and/or included with this route at some point.
     
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  5. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Wow. That's certainly gives me a lot of encouragement for this route.

    This isn't the first route where its timetable has been outsourced for someone else to do, or is it?
     
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  6. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Joe is part of DTG gameplay team, so is not outsourced :)
     
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  7. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    In case you missed it, it's the same Joe who participated in the developer article. Creating 24 hour timetables. There is some mention of London - Brighton and the work he has been doing.
     
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  8. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    We are talking about the Thameslink trains which head down this line to Brighton, question to me would be: does DTG have an agreement with them to use their stock and livery?
     
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  9. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    The guy doing the London-Brighton timetable is Joe Burgess, who also did the Hamburg-Lubeck timetable. He’s a legend and I have faith in him that he’ll do a great job on this.
     
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  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Historically I don't think they ever had, however I don't know the inside details of what is happening right now, at this moment. So circumstances may have changed.

    Only time will tell.
     
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  11. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    The Thameslink services now run by class 700’s used to be run by First Capital Connect until 2014 and were mainly Electrostars and class 319s. DTG had a license for FCC and add ons for both units were released as DLC for the London- Brighton route on Train Simulator. Both units continued in service under the Thameslink TOC until September 2017 when they were fully replaced by 700s.

    I have no idea if DTG have the Thameslink license but I would guess not otherwise why make a 465 and not a 700 for SEHS?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  12. Cash

    Cash Active Member

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    I’m not sure if this is the right thread to mention this, so sorry if it isn’t. I was just wondering wether it was confirmed if there would be AI southeastern services going out of London Victoria, even if we can’t drive them it would still add so much variety and really sell the idea of a busy, diverse timetable. Thanks :)
     
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  13. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    According to steam, DTG do have the Thameslink license, but this route is its first usage. On all past southern routes I could find on steam, Southern was licensed through the Department for Transport. But for L2B in Rush Hour, it is licensed through Govia Thameslink Railway, I’m assuming so they could get the Gatwick Express license.
     
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  14. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    If for some reason a Class 700 is not possible (if Siemens decline to work with DTG, there are licensing issues there or whatever) then a second option could be to add a Thameslink pack with the services but using the GX 387 reliveried into the old Thameslink colours (and converted from 387/2 to 387/1). It's not ideal and clearly not a preference but I'd rather see some Thameslink-branded services than none at all.

    However my gut feeling is that given they've been able to successfully negotiate the license for Southern and GX, Thameslink should be doable logically?
     
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  15. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Matt - any chance you could confirm if the West Coastway-bound Southern services (Victoria - Littlehampton etc) terminate at Preston Park or Hove in this route (ie. is Hove modelled and accessible or off-limits)? Cheers, looking forward to playing!
     
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  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Nothing has been confirmed regarding this, however I would too like it if the SE services are added to Victoria, even if they are only AI-non drivable services. It’d add a lot of immersion to the station and surrounding area.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
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  17. traingeek241

    traingeek241 Member

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    I think it will be released as DLC some point in the near future and most likely after the 313 is released.
     
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  18. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the we stuff at Victoria are a massive part of the station ‘scene’
     
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  19. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    Reminds me of this (not very successful) photo I got of 700s occupying all 4 tracks at Salfords last summer! P1000923.JPG
     
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  20. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    This route is really gonna feel strange without TL isn't it...
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I am getting a sniff of the future- the loco DLC for Boston will be Acela and that for Brighton will be the 700. No clue what it would be for Dresden, although the ICE-T is a possibility - of all the RH routes, Dresden is the one most in need of a loco DLC since the route comes with no new rolling stock whatsoever.

    Why ICE-T? Because it's found all across Germany now, and if Acela is modeled (a very high likelihood), then DTG will have mastered tilting technology (which will also make the Pendolino possible for future UK routes).
     
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  22. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt the route will be busy, it's just where certain trains will appear. Lack of Thameslink is obviously a big gap, which makes me think these services will (at least in part) be covered by the Class 377/4. Also the Southern metro lines between Purley and Victoria, having these being operated by the Class 377/4 isn't strictly accurate, but for the benefit of adding more services I can live with this. Then again I suppose most people buying the DLC would never have traveled on the real route itself, or know exactly what types of trains operate where, so it really doesn't matter so much. Great Western Express still functions fine despite the omission of the Class 165 for instance.
     
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  23. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    If there was a Thameslink pack, I wouldn't be complaining, I'd be cheering and would definitely buy it! I used to commute from Eastbourne to London regularly when I lived there and would love to see more trains/routes dahn sarf personally. :love:
     
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  24. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Thanks Nat. Do you have a link please? I'd love to read it.
     
  25. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Like Matt said, you cant have both:
    Either all services are included regardless of wrong rolling stock (thameslink services with 377) or a loco DLC brings new services.
    So some people will be annoyed that the TL services aren't in the game from the start, but if they were others (or sometimes even the same people) would be upset that a Class 700 DLC would just be substituting for the then already existing 377 Services.
    You cant make everyone happy and if the timetable is still busy without those services, it isnt a big deal or something to complain about.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
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  26. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    Thanks, Tom. Yeah I get it now. Great explanation!
     
  27. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It's in her message. Click on the "Creating 24 hour timetable".
     
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  28. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    And you'd still have Southern 377s on the Thameslink services anyway without creating a completely new timetable.
     
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  29. Ferrovipathe67

    Ferrovipathe67 Well-Known Member

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    yes DTG have the licence thameslink
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Just because DTG have a TOC brand license for TS, that doesn't necessarily mean they can use it for TSW. Often a separate license has to be negotiated.
     
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  31. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    They don't have it for TS - there is no Thameslink content in TS.

    The Thameslink logo was found in a list of files called "licensorlogos" in... Well, the files.
    unknown-1.png
    (Whilst the Thameslink logo isn't here, if the user who found these on the TSC Discord had clicked on it, it would have shown the logo - they did this for BNSF and stuff)
     
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  32. JayTG123

    JayTG123 Active Member

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    Do 313s go from Brighton - London still?? If so, (when released) the 313 can be used in BML to fill services ??
     
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  33. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    That does not necessarily mean they have the license for it. I went into more detail on that matter here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/all-license-dtg-tsw2.42951/page-2#post-348943

    TLDR: You can never make assumptions when it comes to licensing.
     
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  34. Ferrovipathe67

    Ferrovipathe67 Well-Known Member

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    no only on the south and east coast.
     
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  35. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    They only do the West and East Coastway to my knowledge. There is the possibility they have been used on the London services since transferring to Southern but I imagine that would be very rare,
     
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  36. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that list also says we're going to get a CrossCountry Voyager... Oh wait they lost the XC license. I wouldn't take anything from that list.
     
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  37. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I get that, however it's incredibly safe to say that there has been dialogue between the companies. Otherwise, DTG would not be able to have these logos in the game files.

    Things change. Just like XC changed to not being in TS. (Funny how Grand Central (by Arriva) Class 180 DLC on TS wasn't thrown in the bin when Arriva went up for sale)

    I wouldn't say never.
     
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  38. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The 313s never operated between Brighton and London.
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Howsomever, DTG rather obviously have licensing deals for TSW with Gatwick Express and Southern- both of which belong to the same parent company as Thameslink, Govia. So I wouldn't imagine getting a Thameslink license would be a problem.
     
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  40. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Probably because the Grand Central license hasn't expired yet. I'd expect it to be withdrawn in the next couple of years.
     
  41. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Grand Central would have automatically have been pulled, as it has Arriva branding. And unlike other operators (Arriva mostly here) this is not subject to franchsing - the main reason they actually pulled this content back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  42. mancunian#7861

    mancunian#7861 Active Member

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    I found a very interesting Wiki entry for the 313s - here's a small quote ...

    Nineteen 313s displaced by Class 378 Capitalstars on London Overground have been transferred to Southern, replacing the newer Class 377/3 Electrostars on East and West Coastway services from Brighton. They primarily operate local services from Brighton to Hove, West Worthing, Portsmouth Harbour, Lewes and Seaford. In addition, they work the Littlehampton to Bognor Regis and Portsmouth & Southsea services. The peak 7.52 train to Ore was abolished at the 2018 timetable change.

    These units were repainted at Wolverton Works and renumbered from 313/1 to 313/2. The full refurbishment began in June 2010 at Wabtec Doncaster and included new flooring and carpet, new seating, improved disabled and cycle space and the fitting of a Passenger Information System. Additional modifications were carried out at Stewarts Lane TMD including the installation of cab air-conditioning, sanding equipment, a 750 V busline, shore supply sockets and the removal of overhead line equipment.

    The 313s commenced operations with Southern on 23 May 2010, providing a two-trains-per-hour service between Brighton and Seaford, and some trains between Brighton and Lewes, Hove, West Worthing and Littlehampton. From 13 December 2010, their operation expanded to stopping services from Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour and the Littlehampton to Bognor Regis shuttle.

    The decision to use 313s on the Coastway lines has been controversial, as they are much older than the 377s and have fewer on-board passenger facilities. The rail union RMT criticised the move and many publications, including the BBC, have questioned the introduction of 35-year-old trains with no lavatories in place of much newer units. These trains are deployed on services that operate predominantly over short distances, such as Brighton to Hove and Brighton to Seaford, and some longer (but stopping) services that provide predominantly local links that run alongside 377s on faster services.

    The introduction of 313s on the Coastway routes facilitated the delivery of additional capacity on high-demand suburban routes in South London, where 10-car trains services are to be introduced combined with platform lengthening.

    The Class 313s operated by Southern were retained when Southern became part of Govia Thameslink Railway.

    In December 2017, it was announced that unit 313201 (former 313001), the oldest Class 313 unit, had been repainted into the BR Blue livery originally used on the units. However, to meet today's accessibility requirements, the doors tonally contrast, rather than having its BR Blue and Grey colours. The repaint was part of the C6 overhaul, which included works on the doors, air system and interior, which includes new, modern LED lighting, and for bodywork repairs. The Director of Engineering for Beacon Rail, which owns the Class 313s, has said, "We wanted to celebrate the heritage of this special train, so the re-livery made perfect sense.”

    If anyone is interested to read all of it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_313
     
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  43. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    In some ways, it would make the most sense for the 313 to be released as part of a West Coastway route, as it appears to see the most service there. Brighton to Littlehampton / Bognor Regis? Having watched a cab ride video on YouTube it looks like a more urban stopping route than ECW as well so there would be some variety in gameplay there.
     
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  44. Nobody's gonna be annoyed that the TL services weren't there from the start just like nobody was annoyed that the BR 101 services weren't in HRR from the start.

    The truth is, if you actually took away the TL services in real life right now, the route would not look half as busy as it currently does.

    The most sensible option I see is to include a near-realistic amount of 377 services now, which should be enough to make the line seem busy, and then add the Class 700 around December with its own Brighton - London Bridge services.

    I would certainly hate to see Class 700s in Clapham Junction or Victoria, as anyone who lives in the area would find that immersion-breaking.

    A supposed file from the game itself suggests that DTG finally managed to get a TL license, so I don't see this being impossible at all.
     
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  45. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, there has almost definitely been dialogue between the companies. The result of that dialogue can only be speculated upon. Bear in mind these files I imagine were never intended for public viewing. However, I have seen it happen before where content for a game, which has been in the game files, even playable in pre-release builds, have not made it to the release version due to licensing reasons, or others.

    Until we have official confirmation one way or another, anything we say on the matter is nothing more than speculation. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade and I certainly encourage people to be excited about the possibilities of potential future content. At the same time, however, I recommend we limit our expectations, I have seen people in similar situations, take the presence of content in-game files to be gospel and as a result have been disappointed or even angry at developers when things have fallen through.


    That being said, if this does all come to pass, the addition of Thameslink has a lot of interesting potential for the game, not just for the Brighton Mainline, extra layers on SEHS, new routes perhaps, it could add quite a lot.

    The BML is a route I am going to be keeping a close eye on, though, it may be a while until I can purchase it sadly. The BML is the first British route with the potential for route mergers, and proper AI population with the potential of Great Western and Southeastern services being present at different points on the line.

    It certainly has the potential to be a proper flagship route for the UK content on TSW2 and hopefully paves the way for similar integration between different content of the game, something we have only really scratched the surface of so far with layering. I might prefer older content vs the more modern side, but I must admit, I am definitely excited to see the end result for this one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  46. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    What I am looking forward to is the departure from London Victoria. I really hope DTG have got the night lighting looking decent as there is a lot of iconic London landmarks to light up at night. Glasgow Cathcart really struggled in this regard.

    Here’s a video of a cab ride departing London Victoria. As you can see there’s a lot going on.
     
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  47. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    As much as I’d love to see London Bridge added to this route in game at a later date, I doubt it ever will be. Although I am more than open to DLC for DLC, DTG doesn’t consider this a sound business model.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  48. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It's already been confirmed that it won't be.
     
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  49. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ve just edited my post to make what I was saying clearer. I meant about it being added in the future as a piece of DLC for a piece of DLC.
     
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  50. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’d love to see London Bridge added as an extension in the future, however we’ve yet to see any route extensions offered by DTG for TSW.

    I think they said there was a few technical challenges when adding a new tile to an existing route. Then there’s the obvious reason of whether they want to spend development cost on something which may not do as well as a new route.
     
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