British Rail Class 304/305/308

Discussion in 'Loco Suggestions & Proposals' started by pascalfarful, May 3, 2021.

  1. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Hello, I'd like to propose the Classes 304, 305 and 308 to be created for TS202X. Now, requesting 3 classes sounds like a lot, but the major differences between these 3 is the number on the front and whether or not it has a foruth coach in it's formation, as well as it's paint scheme. Building a 308, then changing the colours, ripping out the TS and swapping the front number over is the bulk of what's needed to change to a 305 or similar.

    [​IMG]

    Why would these be useful in TS?
    Currently the only AC multiple unit from the first generation is the Class 303. While they are useful for depicting Scotrail and a small sliver of the GMPTE area in the mid 80's, their use case is limited and, particularly in the GMPTE sense, there weren't all that many of them around, so realistic application requires they be used sparingly.

    Enter the 304/305/308. These were the backbone of the West Anglia Main Line, the Great Eastern Main Line, the Greater Manchester electrified network and the electric lines around Birmingham from point of construction. Additionally, as the 317's and 321's were brought in to the GEML and the WAML, they were transfered off to the East Coast Main Line between Doncaster and Leeds and Leeds and Skipton et all, as well as up to Scotland to serve the route between Edinburgh and North Berwick. Hence, their use in TS is vast, much beyond the scope of the 303 and many other multiple units of their type.

    [​IMG]

    In terms of era, their use spans from their 1959 introduction until the early 2000's depending on location. Whether you're modelling the death of steam, the blue and grey era, sectorisation or the dawn of privatisation, Scottish, Midland or Eastern regions, there's somewhere you can stick one of these and it'll be at home. Quite pivitally, in many of these cases there's not a whole lot other than one of these that would work there. Most of the MK1 MU's that have been created are Southern Region 3rd rail ones, and there's a severe lack of AC ones particularly north of the Thames. Hence, I feel these would be an excellent addition to the sim.

    [​IMG]

    Modeling difficulties and how to solve them.
    Punting for an old unit who's only preserved example is one driving trailer does create some difficulties, but nothing unsolveable. They are derived from the same suburban MK1 stock as the 4EPB, so deriving interior views from these would be pretty close to accurate. Additionally, there are images and video footage around of these unit's interiors, both cab and passanger area.

    Sounds will pose a bother, though again, wheel sounds, motion sounds and general carraige sounds can be derivied from EPB's because they are generally the same thing. Motor sounds, harvesting the sounds from a 321 or a 319 as fellow AC units is likely to be as close as one could reasonably get without archival data, but it'd get you in the ballpark for sure.

    [​IMG]

    Why would I want to buy this if it's made?
    Put simply, you now have something to use on the Liverpool St to Colchester route alongside your 321's, on the Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield route alongside the 303's, the Birmingham Cross City line alongside the 323's and then the Edinburg to North Berwick line, the Leeds to Skipton line, the Manchester commuter lines, Warsall to Wolverhampton via Birmingham route, the London, Tilbury and Southend line and many others where nothing else really exists at the moment to do so.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I would 100% love to see some first-gen overhead EMUs in the game, they are sorely underrepresented in Sim and Model Railways
     
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  3. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    Lovely suggestion.
    Just gonna address an issue I ran into and others might possibly run into:
    Here's the second photograph from the post:

    BR Class 305.jpg
     
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  4. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Thanks for fixing that one! Worked fine when I posted the thread, but these things happen I suppose.
     
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  5. cscarpenter

    cscarpenter Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for suggesting these Locos as an add on, you have put together an excellent case for including this generation of EMUs within TS and I 100% applaud and support you in taking this forward.
    I personally was not aware how widespread these units were amongst the network but as a massive fan of the slam door generation this can only add value to an ever expanding stock available already in TS.
    The fact they can be used over a wide timescale and geographical area makes great sense in having them available to both DTG and the wider audience when creating routes/scenarios etc.
    Fantastic suggestion
    Many Thanks
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  6. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    Yea I've had it happen to me as well. I just go and save the image to my laptop and edit the post that had the image to include said image as a file instead of an embed.
     
  7. Kyle_Lennard1

    Kyle_Lennard1 Active Member

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    The one modelling difficulty that seems to have been omitted is the cab and there is little to no cab reference images available or if the surviving 308 still has it's cab interior intact.
     
  8. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Would old training manuals and that kind of thing include cab imagery?
     
  9. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Very good points

    I have managed to find this picture which might help, taken from a 305. I will endevour to fish for additional images of use.

    5723677_orig.jpg

    (link UK EMU Cabs 3xxx - Dawlish Trains – Digital Photographic Library by Colin J. Marsden for the above picture should this fail or there be more info there)

    EDIT: In case lost, the description above lists each of the labled devices as: 1 Seven position electro-pneumatic/Westinghouse air brake controller, 2: Windscreen wiper valve, 3: Main reservoir and Brake pipe pressure gauge, 4: Brake cylinder pressure gauge, 5: Speedometer, 6: Instrument light dimmer switch, 7: Marker light switch, 8: Destination light switch, 9: indicator light dimmer switch, 10: Headlight switch, 11: Tail light switch, 12: Automatic Warning System (AWS) sunflower indicator, 13: Stornophone 6000 cab radio, 14: Power controller, 15: Master switch (forward, off, reverse), 16: Pantograph up and reset button, 17: EP brake indicator light, 18: Bell button, 19: AWS (Automatic Warning System) reset button, 20: Instrument light switch, 21: Demister switch, 22: Horn valve.

    Should other images not be abundantly useful, implementations from MSTS by MakingTracks from many, many years ago might be able to give some clues as to the nature of the cab interior.

    I appreciate this may be an issue, though if photographs and details are fleeting and limited, a certain amount of assumption based on context might do the trick. Sure, 100% accuracy won't be maintained, but if anything it is in tribute to a train of which was so ubiquitous for a time but yet so horrifically under-preserved and documented. Ideally we wouldn't need to get to that point and sufficient data, photographs and maybe even the surviving 305 trailer, might give the answers we need. But while it's a concern, I don't feel it should be a brick wall, given the train's contextual importance to the network.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  10. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Ah, addendum, another picture. Same source as above

    2630162_orig.jpg

    The above website does also list what all the controls do, which would be important. I think the only critical object these pictures so far don't show in it's entirety is the destination scroller, though this one does show the handle for it.

    Regardless, I shall continue investigating to see if I can find something even better.
     
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  11. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Hello again, I have returned with additional information and gubbins which may be of use.

    Firstly, diagrams:
    The Railways Archive has a scanned in PDF copy of a 1960 binder document containing diagrams of diagrams of what seem to be the 305 and a huge amount of information how things such as the camshaft drive system works, how many notches it's supposed to have etc etc. The link to that is here AEI_HVMU_1960.pdf (railwaysarchive.co.uk)

    The layout of the offside cab is the hardest thing to really pin down. I only so far have two main diagramatic sources, as I'm understandably unable to get my paws on the 308 trailer which exists, though someone else may be able to. The first is an extremely blurry shot of a diagram not in the above book, which shows this sort of plunger being on the offside. Probably an emergency break of some kind, like the massive wheels you find in CIG's and CEP's and VEP's. It's not a book that I have so getting a higher-quality scan would require me to purchase it.
    post-7016-0-52311900-1459793125.jpeg

    The book this is from is called "BR Electric Multiple Units to 1975" by Hugh Longworth, but as before, I don't have it, this is someone else's photograph, taken from this forum EMU cabs, AM4, AM5 and AM8 - UK Prototype Discussions (not questions!) - RMweb for 00 guage modelers.

    Additionally, the only really solid picture of what offside cab looks like bizarely comes from a picture of one that's been crashed into in a shunting incident, cleaving the entire right hand cab off completely. It's... really rather crumpled, but that plunger that's appearing on the offside of the cab is unmistakable here.
    12957298063_cbbee89f6f_c.jpg
    Picture is credit to Paul Harrison on Flickr and is from here Damaged EMU No 1 | The result of a collision on the shed | Paul Harrison | Flickr There are other pictures there which show other angles of the train damage.

    The only other thing I found which was particularly handy was taken from the afforementioned RMWeb thread, which was a set of diagrams made by the poster Clive Mortimore which had each of the driving trailers of them ironed out in very crisp 2D outline which might come in handy.
    post-16423-0-76695800-1449953903.png

    So, that's the research I have so far, the only thing much beyond this point would be if someone was able to get in contact with whomever owns the surviving 308 DTS and hope the cab is still in tact and ask to have some pictures.

    Additionally, I did find a cab ride from a 304. It's not especially useful, but it is nice.
     
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  12. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I would not object if this were done. A new class and new train to drive is always a good thing.
     
  13. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Hello again, small bump for this thread but not without some stuff of potential use. On the website citytransport.info they have some passanger interior photographs from what they say could be a 308, or perhaps a 307. They're likely to be reasonably close to accurate accross all types so I figured I'd leave these here.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    IMO Armstrong Powerhouse would be a better candidate to develop this.
     
  15. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Ultimately, as long as SOMEONE makes it, I don't really mind. Making the intention clear that we'd like it to be made I think is the important part. Here seems like the best place for doing that. There's nowhere to apply directly to AP, and I'd rather have the biggest possible scope for it being made as possible. If AP make it, great. If DTG do, great. I just want more of the AC First Gen MU's.
     
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  16. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    AP seem to specialise in early BR coaches, locos and MUs. Their Mk1 Coach pack could be the basis for many slam door models. Note the AP 421/422/423 Sound Pack has been withdrawn, usually they do this prior to the release of an expansion or an entirely new model.

    Given the option I'd rather AP do 1st gen AC MUs.
     
  17. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    I'd love an AP one, if they do it I'd happily buy it, especially as it'd likely have the widest range of liveries available. That being said, anything to get the ball rolling here.
     
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  18. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Well-Known Member

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    AP don't have any plans to do any 1st gen AC MUs as at about a month ago when I asked Richard A.

    But, yes, a really beautifully put together case for the AM4/5/8s. My selfish preference is for a 302 and an LTS to play with but not only are the Wolverton-built units more widely used, better looking, but also look unlike anything in TS at the moment.

    I give the idea 1 like in line with the rules but have another 10 here for the OP.
     
  19. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    I definitely see the case in a combined 302 and 307 pitch in future once the 4/5/8's are done. I would perhaps intend to place the 310's and 312's or the 309's as the next unit I'd campaign for as they're the next-most commoun type, but I would certainly not be against the AM2 and AM7 getting their due either. Of course, the 307 would allow for the PCV postal DVT conversion which would add an additional spice to any mail applications... but I'll save this for the 302/7 pitch :P

    As for AP, it's a shame that they're not in the immediate pipeline, though if demand is there, they may find themselves in that pipeline in time, one hopes.
     
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  20. DH25

    DH25 New Member

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    I'd support this as I'd honestly love an early AC EMU for TS, especially a proper "Dino" 304.

    While the 304/5/8 all look fairly similar at first glance, there are quite a number of differences between the basic classes, and even in the sub-classes.

    The 304 in particular had force-ventilated rectifiers - the loud fan noise from the Motor coach when taking power, the intake slots on the body side and the prominent ductwork on one side of the Motor coach. This is one of the reasons that 304s have the locked off compartment after the MBS was converted from 6-aside fully compartmented to open saloon - the air intake ran across the whole of the width of the coach, under the seats! 305s and 308s don't have this arrangement.

    As you've also realised, theres some fairly noticeable differences in the cabs, e.g. the controller style - 304s are BTH, 305s are GEC, 308s are EE - and differences in the desk & switches, and apparently even the cab windows are slightly different between Wolverton and York/Doncaster units.

    This is without accounting for refurb/non-refurb layouts, and the different "large window/little window" styles.

    Each variant would require either a) a different 3D model, or b) the same model but lots of child objects to account for the variances.

    Not saying it can't be done, it's just more work than it originally looks like.

    The 304 isn't a bad spot to start, truth be told. Just the two main variants ("Manchester" and "Liverpool"), and 4-car or 3-car with and without the TCsoL. Never got refurbished other than the MBS being opened out, only a couple of units got Regional Railways paint, most ended their days in Blue & Grey, so one set of models will cover a lot of eras.

    However they didn't work away from the WCML, so may have limited appeal compared to say the refurbished 305/2 which saw both NSE, Greater Manchester and North Berwick service, or refurbished 308/1 with NSE, WCML (Birmingham area) and Leeds area use.
    If AP or an AP associated developer took it on, they would want to do a proper job, with the correct cab, correct saloon layouts, windows, etc. But, they will have most of the source samples in their library in order to concoct a good approximation of the running sounds.

    It would make sense to maybe do these as a series of 1959-generation EMUs, with different volumes - different classes/sub-classes, as built vs. refurbs, etc., as they've done with other classes of unit/loco.
     
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  21. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    I'd imagine Peter 749006 would be a mine of information on these units (304's) as he has driven them in real life...

    Eric
     
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  22. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there was much difference in the cabs of the 304, 305 or 308 units but the bodies were different.
    The 304 units having two Guards vans, one on the MBS and the other on the DTS.
    304.021.jpg

    I think the possibilities of DTG or AP making the units is low due to the lack of good sound recordings of these EMUs
     
  23. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    Shame really... Cue Dunkrez...???
     
  24. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Well-Known Member

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    Peter is right. You can pretty much write-off a decent version of any traction that no longer exists as quality sound recordings won't exist.

    AP will likely stick to the late BR/1st gen privatisation era, as Richard isn't so keen on the latest rolling stock, apart from the Stadlers which are already in the works with GU/ATS.

    I think any future new slammers will be Southern DC units.
     
  25. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    Hello, nice to see that this is continuing to hold interest.

    I understand the discussion for a realistic, or as realistic as possible, interpretation, however I am strongly of the viewpoint that a flawed version is a far more preferable option to no version at all. Getting bogged down in an unachievable is not ideal. We do have sounds from the 303, AP certified even, which might help, plus the previous mix of EPB and 317/315/any crankshaft EMU could cover what's missing I feel. Not perfectly accurate, sure, but if someone was to complain I would press them to produce suitable recordings themselves. There are countless steam locomotives which we don't have anymore that are modelled, so I don't see why this should be a millstone around our neck when it doesn't strictly need to be.

    I would also like to agree with DH25's points on the body differences. These are more significant than I had previously given credit, though concentrating realism here could be useful to divert from less-optimal audio. As far as which subclass would be best to persue first, I wouldn't mind and would leave very much in the hands of whomever would make it. Where it be DTG, AP or someone else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
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  26. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Well-Known Member

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    I agree, a good-looking slightly off-sounding AM4 or similar would be fine by me.
    The AP 315 compressors would do the trick? Dare I suggest the Class 411 sounds? They would be fine by me.
     
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  27. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Often what one can consider is the model of different parts used on the EMU, and compare them to other models that may have the same part, meaning it's possible the units sounded the same as other existing classes. Like for example, if one considers a GE E60 (an American example as my knowledge of the UK is not as great). The only surviving Amtrak copy is in museum nowhere near restoration. (They're too busy working on their steam locomotives). But there are working examples of freight E60s, known as E60C-2s. Thus one could take sounds, maybe even physics, and apply it to the Amtrak E60.
    TDLR: See what can be used from other things to mesh together a near-accurate product.
     
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  28. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    It would also be up to a Developer to make these first gen Emus.
    The lack of suitable Payware routes might also be a problem.
    The 305s/308s did work over the GEML but it was an older version of the route.
    At the same time the Class 411/412 did not have any routes set in their era but have been popular

    Just a matter of getting a Dev to make these trains
     
  29. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    I don't think Routes will be an issue, aging is slightly irritating I concur, but I don't think that's going to cause too much trouble. As far as raw routes to use them on, Edinburgh to Newcastle from JT (Edinburgh to North Berwick), the GEML as mentioned previously, the Birmingham Cross City, WCML South (from Rugby/Coventry into Birmingham), the Woodhead in Blue/Grey (from Manchester to Hadfield/Glossup), the North London and Goblin lines (Gives you the LTS parts, especially as a backdated version of this route already exists) as well as potentially the slow lines on the Trent Valley WCML route, and indeed any background traffic at Leeds or Crewe if you wanted that. The main reason I punted for this Gen 1 EMU first was because we already have most of the many routes it worked on.
     
  30. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that the Class 304 was LM only,
    The Class 305s worked over the GEML then later around Greater Manchester
    The Class 308s also worked over the GEML then around Leeds North West
    There is more than one type of unit - all with different features
     
  31. scott boughtwood1

    scott boughtwood1 New Member

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    Hi Guys Ive been real busy over the past 15 years. I have the route and Class 302 308s in progress. sb1.jpg fb1.jpg
     

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  32. scott boughtwood1

    scott boughtwood1 New Member

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    Some more Pictures sb5.jpg sb3.jpg sb2.jpg
     
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  33. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Awesome, between this and the Clacton Express Project that's in development, I'm going to be spoilt for choice
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Wow I think I remember these (302/308) being talked about years ago on UKTS. Great to see that they haven't been forgotten. The route is looking great too.

    Yes finally a decent selection of first generation EMU's are being produced.
     
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  35. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I rode on my first (in memory at least, there's a chance I may have ridden a 312 when I was very young) first-generation EMU back in August. The Mangapps Railway Museum is home to the last two surviving Class 302 vehicles, DTSOs 75033 and 75250 from 302201 and 302227 respectively which were hooked up to ex-Network Rail 31105.

    DSCN9476 resize 3.JPG
     
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  36. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Well-Known Member

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    I've said it to Scott elsewhere but this is looking fantastic, some of the work that's going into this project is amazing.
    I worked on the LTS through the NSE era, so I can't wait to drive it at last.

    I may be wrong, Scott will correct me, but I think a modern era version is first. So it may be a while yet before we can get to struggle to drive a fully-laden 12 car Class 302 consist up Laindon Bank on a wet autumn evening.
     
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  37. pascalfarful

    pascalfarful New Member

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    This is magnificent! I remember seeing these being shown around years and years ago, I'm incredibly glad to see that they live on! Do you have a link to where you're posting info about these and/or where it'll be made available when it's done?
     
  38. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Yes, a Class 310 would be very welcome for our assorted London Euston and Birmingham layouts. Xavier has done his backdated North London Lines up to Watford from Euston, plus we have the DTG WCML offering to New Street, and Trent Valley, these would be very useful for any future old-ish layouts as well, a few of us old hands have been asking for these first gen EMUs for ages, nobody seems to want to bite. I suppose it's research materials, authentic sounds and the willingness to do it, for a small financial return, that's holding them back.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
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