Can Anyone Explain Why Ts2021 And Tsw2 Can’t Share Trains/routes Despite Having The Same Developer?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Jon from Rhode Island, Sep 16, 2021.

Tags:
  1. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    67
    This has always been confusing to me, especially because TSW2 seems to clearly be the superior product. But TS21 has trains like the Acela that the TSW2 team can’t commit to including in a route that actually runs it.

    When and how did development of these products get forked to a degree that they are incompatible with one another?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    492
    Likes Received:
    465
    They have never been compatible with one another, they are different sims aimed at different people made using different software.

    TSW is the more mass market simulator with multiple platform support, whereas TS is more suited to players looking to mod.

    Although TSW is the newer sim it doesn't really replace TS, as many things you can do on TS you can't do on TSW and vice-versa.

    Edit: Both will be supported for the foreseeable future if there's a continued audience (which at present applies to both).
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    6,021
    Same developer, but different engine, different generation of engine and different way of working

    TS1 was spawned from Microsoft Train Sim and came to DTG via Kuju, is based on a Direct X 9 & 11 engine and all of the assets within that game are written and compiled within that framework

    TSW was created from scratch by DTG in Unreal Engine, starting with the original TSW (2018/19) and progressing through TSW2020 and onto TSW2, so the assets are completely different, in a different system and have no relation to the DX9/11 assets.

    DTG haven't committed to replicating all the assets and routes from TS1 in TSW, mainly because the workload required is enormous, and they have to justify that work commercially, as in if they recreate the Weardale and Teesdale network would that many people buy it? I'm sure many would but maybe not enough to justify the workload
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,269
    Likes Received:
    2,829
    To give you a simple answer to your question TS21 and TSW2 are built on to entirely different gaming engines of which are not compatible with each other.
     
  5. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    67
    I don’t quite understand the business rationale for supporting two separate products that perform the same function. Does TS21 exist simply to service legacy Microsoft customers?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    6,021
    The business rationale is that there are hundreds of players who play TS1 and who buy the software and DLC to do what you can do on TS1 and hundreds of players who play TSW who buy that software for what it can do (across multiple platforms)

    Your question seems to be based on the premise that the engineers which work on TS1 also work on TSW, which in many cases is NOT the case. There are separate dev teams for each software generally (even to producers etc) although some teams are shared (such as artists)

    So the question to you would be why SHOULDN'T there be two pieces of software when one only works on PC, and the other doesn't have editting tools, proper scenario tools or thousands of publically available assets?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,691
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    TS has a wide and varied userbase who have spent a small fortune on the system and many hours getting it to do exactly what they want, exactly how they want, through add-ons, mods and apparently endless adjustment of graphic cards and .ini files. To abandon that group would be a questionable commercial decision.

    TSW exists to provide the likes of me with a way to drive trains. I use a Mac for work and own a console (or two) for gaming, I have no desire to buy or build a PC and no interest in interacting with a system of bitty, inter-dependent add-ons of varying quality. I suspect this is where a lot of the money is currently coming from, so to abandon that group would be a deeply questionable commercial decision.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2021
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    341
    And are a whole Decade apart
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Way back when we started thinking about building what became Train Sim World, one of the key questions we asked ourselves was whether we should retain full backward compatibility - use the same configs, have the same behaviours, and essentially do a major graphics refresh and probably not much else.

    We felt that players wanted *more* out of the sim, a better and more realistic simulation of engine and braking, far more interactivity in the trains, more detail in the routes, lots of people had directly said to me what they really wanted was to get out and walk around the train and the route rather than being stuck on it. There were lots and lots of things - none of which would have been possible with backward compatibility.

    Second angle on this is - does the presence of Train Sim World negate the value of TS? Answer is - not even remotely, and in fact by making it as different as we have, that is actually enhanced. There's tons of content on TS, there's more detail on TSW and on a wider range of platforms but it will be a long time until TSW has the same amount of content that TS has.

    TSW was because we wanted to do more, explore lots of new options and features, deliver the experience to a range of platforms including consoles and make the whole thing more engaging for a wider audience without sacrificing accuracy or detail.

    TS couldn't go on that journey, its codebase was too old and generations behind modern development, the amount of work required to it would have changed it fundamentally and it, too, would have lost its backward compatibility in the process, defeating the object of taking the harder path.

    Therefore, there are two perfectly good train simulations available, and everyone wins because you can just choose the sim you want that offers the experience you want.

    Content can't be passed between them because they are simply that different. The way track is managed (the maths etc) is different, the nature of the clothoid spirals is not calculated in the same way (TSW is smoother), signalling is developed much more around the way it works in real life on TSW and bears precisely zero resemblance to the game-based system in TS1. Engine and braking physics are done completely differently, and even the 3D models themselves are structured differently.

    The only thing that can potentially be passed between them at a developer level is the 3D models themselves, with some work, can be made available from one sim to the other and then everything else that makes it a train needs to be done (It really doesnt save that much time). For routes, 3d models for buildings can be brought across, but basically nothing else.

    Hope that explains why we're here.

    Bottom line - enjoy, run both :)

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 16
    • Helpful Helpful x 3
  10. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    67
    Thanks Matt. I find these kind of dev issues fascinating.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2021
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    938
    I’ve got to be honest I’m quite envious of the all the tracks and different trains TS1has. I mean TS1 has that dedicated Royal Mail DMU train where as TSW2 has a post office train which isn’t one because it’s just a train with a load of cargo carriages not even in Royal Mail colours. Definitely not a proper TPO. I’m not a PC gamer so TSW2 it is for me. On the subject of walking about? I don’t really get this? To me a train sim is for driving the trains and nothing else. Walking about and collecting things is just a distraction. Still all our mileages vary don’t they.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  12. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,103
    Likes Received:
    2,757
    Royal Mail DMU? Do you mean the 325? Also, the mail train in NTP (which I think is what you're referring to) isn't that far off a real one from what I can see. Yes, it is missing GUVs but mk1 BG coaches were used on TPOs. They didn't receive RM colours until the late 80s/early 90s, before that they opted for BR Blue or Blue/Grey (here's a picture from 1984 by George of Dufton on Flickr).
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    6,021
  14. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2021
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    204
    Does that mean creating longer routes on TSW will never happen?
     
  15. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Not sure how you got that from what I said :)

    Longer routes are certainly possible, it's just a matter of time to make them and we're still finding the right way to achieve that without compromising quality (and I want to focus on getting quality back in the right place first).

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  16. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2021
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    204
    Ah thanks Matt, very much looking towards the future with TSW
     
  17. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    67
    That’s the right priority. Theoretically, a train sim could cover most of the planet, layering publically available route maps on satellite data. But as anyone who has tried to land a Cessna in their driveway in MSFS can attest, this can look terrible.
    I wonder if freight lines have their own “street view” data, or maybe Google is already planning that, but that would really be the only viable solution.
     
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    6,021
    Unfortunately not. The most difficult part is pathing and signalling. Yes you can tell where tracks are from satellite data, but you can't see where signals are, where they go to etc
    As we know, DTG can lay track pretty well, and a block of flats ½ a mile away is a block of flats ½ a mile away, but the dispatcher and integration with signals is much more complex
     
  19. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    67
    You would not have to rely on satellite data for the track map. There are more precise sources for that. See https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
    Signaling can probably be approximated through AI.
     
  20. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,103
    Likes Received:
    2,757
    They already have a system in place that cuts down dev time by placing basic scenery and painting the terrain, to somewhat mixed results (see the TSW version of LGV Med)
     
  21. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Open Railway Map is not a good source for modelling railways - it's an excellent reference, but there's tons wrong in the fine detail or missing (which don't matter as a reference, but can break a route from being usable). As one example, one route in the past that we did we found the data woefully incorrect so we researched and figured it out ourselves - a few months later we checked and someone had updated the Open Railway Maps data with an exact copy of the route track plan from the game :) Trying to figure out where easements are, where multiple easements are chained etc, is really difficult but crucial to the quality of the experience. You also don't get all the fine height data, it's just a flat plane in these sources, and lots of the complexity is managing how these tracks are at different heights, how they join and split and so forth.

    You cannot approximate signals with AI either, players of Train Sims demand far more accuracy down to cab ride match, but even then - if it was possible to accurately guess signals using AI the rail industry would itself be in for a multi billion pound saving. It takes planning, foresight, knowledge and experience to create signaling systems that work safely, efficiently and effectively. Sure, you could "railroad tycoon" the signaling system with some basic protection at junctions but is that honestly what you want? I don't think so :)

    In my view, the track and signals MUST be hand created by people with the expertise in those areas. They are fundamentally core to the whole experience. The only exception i'd offer to that rule is if you can base it on official data such as Network Rail's track data, but that's pretty unlikely to be available :)

    It's areas like distant scenery that auto generation of scenery can offer significant savings, allowing route builders the time to focus on the close-in areas that are much more important.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  22. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2020
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    686
    I wonder how significant photo sharing sites are in route research, just searching a station or something on Flickr will give you tons of reference images, particularly for modern routes, even for the 1970s and 80s there's still a decent amount of images of stations and trains.

    Slightly off-topic I know, but I was just wondering if sites like Flickr or specific railway photography sites integrate with research and route creation as a whole.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Yes we google image search on flickr and other sites to see what we can find in order to help us see what something looks like.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    6,021
    And you think the wolf pack on here would accept "so-so" autogenerated signalling???
    They haven't accepted "so-so" autogenerated PIS and signalling is much more important, so I would so no
     
  25. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    555
    Even down to the font... Though it does the job and IMO the static text is more legible than the rapidly scrolling displays that are common these days.
     
  26. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    1,810
    Matt just a thought and I dont know if this is a good idea or not. We average routes between 30-50 miles now for £25

    If for example there was demand for a route which was 80 mile what if the price was £30. Granted I know there would need to be more complicated maths to ensure a minimum amount sold covered cost etc but could that be the solution or do you think that would isolate players more?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2021
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    938
    627D5178-7CB4-438E-A32B-37DE28542EBF.jpeg I’d like to see this in a future TSW2 route ( Now no longer in use ) as well as the currently used Royal Mail Class 325
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_325 In fact I’d quite like to see more Royal Mail branded trains in TSW2 as well as more variety of freight types of train in general whether drivable or as AI. Currently freight trains in TSW2 are pretty boring. It’s things like this which make me wish I had a PC instead of a console so I could play TS1because TS1 has so many more different tracks and varieties of freight content because it’s on PC. If I wanted to play a train sim game on a PC if I had one I wouldn’t be bothering with TSW2 tbh. TS1seems to be where it’s at even if it is an older game than TSW2. I’m pretty envious of TS1players. TSW2 is ok but very limited in its content because of the type of sim it is and the different platforms it aims to serve which is why I firmly believe TSW2 should split into specific TSW regions so the different dev teams can give UK rail fans ( For example ) more of what they want.

    It will probably never happen but I can dream.


     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021

Share This Page