PC Can We Stop Having Disconnected/unfinished Routes

I know that the Manchester route, North London Line routes have been announced for awhile now. And this has been way too long of a tradition that keeps happening. Can we just have something that end to end and not having a route that kinda ends nowhere or not suitable to end?
I like Cathcart circle, Overground Goblin line, all but 1 of the BR era routes (that 1 excluded route is WCR), SEHS, Brighton Mainline, Midland Mainline, Island Line, Cross City Line (I still hate how we dont get to drive to soho depot) etc. Any route that doesnt end in the location where its just not suitable, some routes that is also my personal favourites like GWE because of the GWR HST but is brought down by the route not going to Oxford unlike TSC.

Routes I accept in this not having a litteral end to end routes are, Fife Circle, Midland Mainline and Northern Trans-Pennine route as a couple examples. Fife Circle if not counting the new branch, TSC version of this didnt end at Markinch so at least that is a good tiny stretch. (But another game outside of Train sim, Trainz have a scotland route from edinburgh to to Dundee, so i am unsure how I feel about that). Midland Mainline and Northern Trans-Pennine are at least a full recreation or have longer stretch of track compared to TSC counterpart. And sure they might not be a literal end to end route but at least they end at a big station/terminus where a lot of other different trains terminates there. A lot of the other routes just isnt and i honestly have a hatred for those kind of routes. ECML still should've gone to York, WCML should've at least gone to Rugby etc. Like where else can i even go from Doncaster and Milton Keynes????

 

In general it is getting a little tiring that many routes come cut off at bizarre junctures, and often come with shoehorned timetables due to the lack of liveries for existing stock.

The content scope has been stuck in a holding pattern for a while unfortunately.

 

if only train operating companies could be generous... admit that their older trains are better than their new ones, and just let other people enjoy all of their trains virtually, being also as a little time capsule to look back on their previous stock that have served them for a long time and kinda paying respect to them.

 

They also really do need to start thinking in terms of what Run 8 have been doing pretty much since inception and SimRail are doing with their Polish route. Add on to what already exists and build it into a network. I mean the new NLL is a classic example, apart from only being 75% of the route it should be an extension of the existing Goblin line. ECW should have been mated into BML and the section from Lewes to Wivelsfield added. And ECW should have continued on to Hastings/Ore as a logical end point too.

 

GWE, WCL, ECW, and WCMLS all suffer from this same issue. If GWE went to at least Didcot Parkway, preferably Oxford or Bristol, WCL went to Plymouth, ECW went to Ore, and WCMLS went to Birmingham, then the service patterns would be far more interesting.

 

I agree. TSW would be far a more entertaining game if it linked up stations imo. If GWE did indeed go to Didcot Parkway then that would open routes up to other places including freight and even the old coal route. Didcot to Birmingham would open up Oxford far more engrossing than the section of GWE they have now.

DTG really dumbed down the GWE route it is shame.

 

as much as how i am really looking forward to the remaster, it only makes the route much more busier and trains but not longer.

 

I think it calls for the developers to be more shrewd, and optimise the route, the stock and layers and the sense of getting something ‘new and enticing’.

The MML route is a great example of picking a clever location (irl), using existing stock (HST) and service variety (across freight, express and regional stuff).. all of which were balanced with a realistic development / budget / scope from Skyhook. It’s as if they’d gone through the alphabet, writing each letter down until they could plot it on a UK Rail map somewhere.. not a bad idea for any potential future routes eh!

The ECML route could have been different, it could have been Peterborough to King’s Cross, but then maybe we wouldn’t have had WCMLS a year later. Would you rather have had WCML Rugby to Crewe?

Overall, I do agree though. Logical end points make sense, but they also add valuable immersion and appeal. If all else fails, chart the alphabet on a UK Rail map..

 

Except it's not as simple as just extending it. You've also got to consider performance. If they keep on connecting routes like bml to ecw and the entire network, then there's a very high chance there will be issues with memory and performance from all the traffic and high volume of assets, signals and environment. There's also the timetable which has to be redone every time there is an extension/merge and the game has to choose the right one depending on which combination of dlcs you have. The price would also continue increasing with each extension to account for the old trackage.

 

My personal rule of thumb is small lines like the Overground, or small self contained routes should be featured in their entirety as it is completely practical to do so and one of the 'perks' of having small, end to end route is having the entire route. It's absolutely bonkers to only feature part of them.

My own rule for long routes/slightly longer routes is the section featured needs to be fulfilling, have variety, and some form of significance (it's subjective, but ECML is a favourite for me, London to Brighton, Preston to Carlisle). Failing that a 'network' built up of the equivalent mileage of a single large route. Hint hint, SouthEastern suburban would be a good one...

 

That's fine by me - I'd be happy with TSW4 headliner KGX to PBO, TSW5 headliner PBO -> YRK, TSW6 headliner YRK -> NCL, TSW7 headliner NCL -> EDB.

Of course I'd rather the new releases were dropped, and just separate DLCs, but that's unlikely to happen

If DTG do NCL -> YRK, you can set it as today - that way we can have 91 on OHLE test!

I do hope that now route hopping is a feature, devs will look to continue on from existing routes - but personally, I find route hopping of limited use and route merges / extensions would be much better - albeit that route merges are technically not possible at this point according to Matt.

 

I think MML is one of the worse for this in my opinion. Apart from the HST runs being short, none of the class 158 services are self contained. It would have been much better going to Sheffield or Lincoln or Newark, even adding the branch to Matlock would have added a terminus.

I do find having "odd" end points somewhat immersion breaking, especially at both ends. PFR is one example of course. Whilst Doncaster is an important railway town historically it was an odd choice to end the route, York would have been better being, I believe a driver change over point.

Routes like Cathcart, FCL, Cross City, Scotrail Express all work for me as they have complete journeys where you can complete a journey and then maybe do a return journey like a real driver would. The new Welsh route should work in that regard. I feel the ATS route should have gone to Crewe but at least it will have self contained services. Goblin is another of course. Blackpool has them but the services from Blackpool North are too short. BML does it well with a variety of self contained services. WCML South is frustrating in a way as it only goes to Milton Keynes but there are plenty of self contained services, especially with the DC lines.

I find SEHS frustrating as most of the services on the "classic" section are just the middle of a service.

 

SEHS certainly feels funny on 700 services. It's a great addition and adds some extra traffic, but it desperately needs a route to be more utilised on. They just need to take what they have, and build on it - adding new locos for variety. But taking routes that connect to existing ones, and can utilise existing stock as additional layers.

 

Honestly I'd say the only route there is WCL and i'd say Plymouth isn't quite the missing link.

GWE: Would be lovely if it went further of course but it doesn't really need to. It's the earliest UK Route in TSW, gives you a quick run with the HST and a fairly long run in/out of London with the 166.

ECW: Probably could do with Hastings/Ore for completeness but it does at least feel like you're terminating at Eastbourne.

WCMLS: The WCML runs all the way to Glasgow so you have to cut it somewhere. I think Birmingham is probably out of range as far as Dovetail are concerned.

WCL:
The name 'West Cornwall Local' would be much better lived up to with a proper network route. Cut St. Austell and bring Falmouth in and, bang, a proper Cornwall local network, nothing too long in the 150 (not much fun on the mainline beyond Truro) and, in having two branch lines, you bring variety in instantly. St Ives - St. Erth is by far my most played section of WCL because I don't like the eastern end of the mainline. Falmouth + cutting that section would be a much better "West Cornwall Local" to me.
Just my opinion, though.

 

Agreed RE: MML, excellent stock & the patches have really made a nice route outside of its glaring issue; the scope. It’s essentially a collection of shuttle runs that you can’t consistently play. It’s a bit of an own goal on Skyhooks part, as if they added a decent terminus, I think it would be one of the more popular routes.

SEHS I partly agree with you, but with one caveat. There is a collection of 395 runs in the late afternoon that covers some peak time runs to & from Faversham. It’s long been one of my most enjoyable experiences in the game - a main line train with decent route length & number of stops, coupled with being able to run it for a multi hour shift. It’s a shame it’s only a fraction of the services on the route, bit of a taste of what could have been (a bloody good taste though).

 

Midland Mainline is a good quality route in my opinion. The reason why I however don't own it is because it's just too short with no self contained full line services. I agree with the op and others in this thread. I would like to see route mergers. For example, connecting the underground section of the Bakerloo Line with WCML south. I don't like route hopping because it just ruins the immersion. It is possible to link two routes together and was done when someone connected RRO and RSN at Hagen

 

LNER still refuses to let anybody do the class 91- or not that other developers have "added this to their plans". Otherwise they would've already been made by now, and i agree, do a York to Newcastle would've been fun.

In one of the other threads about called "DTG's excuse on not doing longer routes" Matt have explained why they couldn't do the entire route- which sums up to. "They dont have enough time." Big bruh. Either way why couldn't they extend the route afterwards in this current time. People who dont own older routes if given an update would still get some additional income so i see no reason for it.
GWE and MML both have the same issue of not being able to drive the HST for a longer time. MML is fine because at least skyhooks recreated that section of the route from their TSC version. GWE isnt.

I dont mind the routes splitting like in TSC, Euston to Brimingham, Brimingham to Preston, Preston to Carlise, Carlise to Glasglow. Just dont end in (not irl) crappy places like milton keynes. And still not including York in ECML is still big mistake still (i still want them to extend it). Because then we have a proper place to stable IETs and (bit of a stretch) add the NRM as for a place for flying scotmans to idle in. And i am pretty sure York has many more railtours stopping there too. And hey guess what, LNER trains have services end at York too, a much suitable place to end services at.

 

Is there a source for LNER's refusal to let anyone do the class 91? Would be a great shame!

 

Skyhook haven't done many routes for TSC, the lacklustre (and quickly built with lots of floating scenery) Alexandria-Monroe Livonia Sub and Corris Railway, which was nice. They made the excellent Halloween route though. Skyhook are good at small projects, complex non-linear routes were never their playground - and fixing TSW MML also was a community effort, eventually leading to Skyhook stepping away from routebuilding.

The whole MML except for St. Pancras - Bedford (1. DTG, recently overhauled to now being one of the fines routes in train simming overall by AP) was done by JustTrains. Also GWML was first done by Kuju, then enhanced by Keith Ross, to be completely replaced by JustTrains Great Western Express, Southwestern Expressway, South Devon and Cornish Mainline available as a complete network in one giant route. Paddington - Penzance is no problem in TSC, which of course took time to develop, but the full dev tools were available for everyone from day one since 2007. (Or week six after release to be exact).

 

no but if they didnt refuse, we would've got them by now. thats where i got my conclusion from.

oops- I was kinda meant at the route itself not by the whoever made the route- As in if there is a great western express coverage in TSC, i simply mean that when apply to TSW-

 

No, TSW MML has technically nothing in common with JT TSC version. Whereas DTG have often reused TSC assets for TSW, as it's both their property.

I think it's important to realise that development is much more expensive these days. When Matt says they've not enough time that means for them it's necessary to release two mid-length routes instead of one large route, for at least two reasons you can probably figure out yourself. JustTrains/JustFlight, Rivet and Skyhook are not depending on TSW alone to make a living. So DTG are the sole fulltime TSW devs, so don't expect all that's available in TSC to be reproduced, which was always laid out as a platform for everyone to develop for. Both games have their place in the genre.

 

London Overground (half) mildmay line will be the next one.

I Really suggest devs to go for another route choice if the scope is too big for a team. Short routes are welcome, but enclosed and complete.

1. Im intetested in buying the full line and of course full price if well done, but this is not even going to one of the 2 endings (richmond, clapham junction).

2. This route is botched now, nobody will ever release the missing sections or a full mildway line, except this dev decides to extend it. Basicly goes into the problem of bad subpar loco dlcs (who is gonna make the high quality 187?)

Its disappointing to know this route will be already a "no buy", because if somebody followed the history of tsw, this is far from "lessons learned".

I remember the giant discussion back then when the harlem line was releaded.

 

[EDIT - Jan - Insensitive, Snarky] Perhaps if DTG thought outside the box or devised a better system for TSW route building in the first place… And you know, they are a multi £million software business. They do employ people to work on this type of thing.

 

Matt said in a stream somewhere that it’d need lots of dev time - I always took this as the main reason

 

Yes I agree, I do enjoy the class 395 on there and drive it a lot it's the classic section which is frustrating although I understand it would be a lot of work to extend it somewhere logical. I do enjoy going through the Medway towns and the contrast with HS1. I enjoy a blast down to Ashford too.

I do feel the 465 would benefit from it's own route as it's a good train. The class 700 also could do with a route centered on it.

I agree that MML is one of the best in the sim now quality wise.

 

I totally agree. Understandable that routes that span 200 miles can't be done. But routes that are 50 miles in length and hacked down to 40 odd miles and missing the end point are not acceptable. Routes that are less than 20 miles long and cut short of the end point are totally unacceptable.
Some routes should be merged, I understand that some machines won't be able to cope with the size and amount of traffic but that's not my problem! As with gen 8 recently, layers can be disabled for them to cope.
As for redoing the time table. Fawx has made one of the busiest timetables single handed in a matter of weeks! Dtg can't manage the same with a team of devs?
Besides, if there's a merger and we are paying for it, obviously dtg are getting paid to make the timetable.
Or are long routes just a third party thing now?

 

At the end of the day, if people throw money at DTG for new routes on day 1, nothing will ever change.

"Why is there no pre-order for this route?"

"What is the pre-order date?"

I mean, why would DTG put more work into making longer routes than they need to, when people are already so eager to get their wallets out?

 

Agreed, but then TSW is designed for that sort of lifespan, it’s a catch 22.

Out of all the routes in the game already, I’d bet only 25% of them (outside of the latest release) actually get returned to by a significant amount of players.

 

I'd agree with the part about Skyhook and I do think their strengths lie in smaller projects. Their last route (partly) was Holiday Express which is entirely in the Skyhook 'gimmick' category.

The gameplay packs bring a lot more to an otherwise shallow UK Freight scene and I think doubling down on that would suit them. Corris Railway but in TSW would be magical, if only Simugraph gets fixed.

 

Feel free to jump in and fill yer boots anytime you want to learn how to use the editor and model trains in 3d and learn how they work and implement it in to TSW5, And then build yourself a 100+ mile fully working route with landscaped and custom made assets.

Hentis

 

so just profiting of from fanboys instead of hearing from a proper fanbase.
"be grateful for what you get"
"stop criticising the dev because you will hurt them"
"its their first time give them some slack"
"we like cut off routes"
"you dont even build routes, try it yourself to feel the pain"
typical fanboys trying to defend the devs... i dont need to learn how to build nor buying the said route to criticise a route. And passion and effort doesnt mean masterpiece and perfection.

Gameplay packs are merely cash grabs, i wouldn't mind as much if the payware reskins aren't 5 pounds for each, why not make a bundle that consist of a couple reskins on wagons together to make them worth more and a bit more consumer freindly. (I can make up a completely sepereate thread for this topic, but not now). The only gameplay pack that I have ever bought is the class 37 and SE class 375. And considering the class 323 in it's retro livery but its at a very low priority.

And honestly for enclosed short routes, with Cathcart circle, Goblin Line and maybe MML as an example. I wouldn't mind short routes because they are either fully done or have branching paths so i dont always just go to that one location available when there is another you could go to for some variety.

if that is the case and if any developers have been working on it, i am really curious as to how long it took them to develop a class 91 and the MK4s.

 

There is a difference between fanboying and having realistic expectations. Taking MML for example. Going to Sheffield is an extra 30 miles. It is a route distance in itself. You have 30 miles of track, scenery, towns, stations all to model to a good standard and then the extra services trains etc. To just dismiss and essentially ignore the devs various comments on this to suit your argument is just ignoring straight up facts.

TSW is only a game. Games have limitations whether it be memory, performance or whatever. These (best of my knowledge) are small developers providing for a relative niche market. They don't have endless money or resource.

 

I more took it to mean that it was unlikely to happen, because of the dev time required. Rather than it was coming, but will take time. Would hope it’s the latter though

 

Why wouldn't you cater for both. Short routes 29.99 long routes 49.99 for example?

 

Last time I checked, DTG had almost 200 employees, and that number may be larger now. They hire more community managers every other week, so the excuse of "DTG are a small indie company" doesn't hold weight anymore. They are way past that point.

Saying that, I DO agree with you that there is a hell of a lot of work going into routes, and that extra 30 miles would cause a fair few headaches and delays.

A lot of us would wait the extra few months for complete routes, if we were given the option.

 

We have long routes for 29.99/32.99. I don't think the majority would like to pay 50 quid for them.

 

I would. But maybe that's just me lol

 

What routes are they? Most routes released by dtg of recent quite short.

 

Amen to that. I paid £32.99 for WCMLoS as it is a route of particular interest and the era is right together with the iconic Class 87. But might not have been so keen had it been set in modern day with a Pendolino. Bearing in mind we got ECML as part of the three route package in TSW4 only slightly shorter that worked out a lot less buying the Deluxe pack.

 

They aren't being made by DTG. They are being made by third parties who choose their own projects. The North London line is one guy who just wanted to do that particular bit as a passion project. What would the "solution" be?
Not publish his route at all?
Blaming DTG for things they didn't do is just silly.

While it makes sense...some already do that.
Just Trains are doing connected routes.
Rivet has done connected routes.

It comes down to the individual developer however what they want to do.

 

I would for something like Euston to New Street or Wolverhampton. I certainly would for a good steam era route or a comprehensive BR period route.

But I doubt many would.

 

One a one-off basis I think I would, yes, but not regularly by any means.

 

Out of those, I wonder how many are competent, or actually employed, to do route building and such.

 

SEHS is a good example of a route that doesn't feel cut off. I'm not at all familiar with the area, but it's long enough to not feel like you're stopping somewhere illogical. Faversham, Dartford, St Pancras and Ashford (Gillingham to an extent as there's a depot there) all feel like valid end points.

The same can't be said for most other routes.

 

Sehs has several lines that don't reach the end points.
You could have London Victoria to ramsgate or Dover but we only have the section between Faversham and Rochester. Thameslink runs from Rainham (kent) to Luton but is cut short at dartford. Then there's 465 services that run from Gillingham to London cannon St but are cut short at dartford.
Then there's services from Gravesend that run into London but only go as far as dartford.
Even the 395 services from St Pancras should run all the way to the coast but are cut short at Faversham.
The only really full line would be hs1 from St Pancras to Ashford.
I'm not knocking sehs because it is a good route but most of the lines don't end at the end points.

 

Yes, but it doesn't feel that way.

At least the end points are somewhat logical - there's sidings at both Dartford and Faversham, Gillingham and Ashford have a depot, and St Pancras is a terminus - all of which make a lot more sense than ending the WCML at Milton Keynes, for example.

The end points feel logical, even if its not that way in reality, which I see as a good compromise. If an actual logical end point isn't feasible, at least end it somewhere that feels logical rather than what is the middle of nowhere, which pretty much every route does.

 

Remember the MSTS days when that was a thing? Making-Tracks, and Europeanbahn even more so, were fantastic in regards to expansion of their existing add-on packs. All of them launched a separate installer after completion of the primary, asking if you wanted to integrate the new DLC into the existing. With literally zero effort you'd be able to run the length of the ECML from London to York, or Enterprise services from Dublin to Belfast.

The East Coast Express add-ons were released in two parts, Kings Cross to Peterborough, then Peterborough to York. Then the Leeds Loop and Hertford Loops add-ons came afterwards.

The West Coast Express had Cross City afterwards.

Midland Mainline had the Farringdon Extension.

Making-Tracks enabled both of their massive Irish Enterprise add-ons to be combined, and gradually offered route extensions and upgrades to their Great Eastern add-on.

I know that comparing MSTS to TSW is apples to oranges, but there are times when I really miss how simply some things were done back in the day.

 

I think DTG see route merging as an accidental success, that they are really going to push going forwards.

Want to see HSTs at St.Pancras?
Better go and buy Midland Main Line.

Want to see class 390s and 801s on Edinburgh to Glasgow?
You'll be wanting to buy ECML, the standalone Pendolino DLC... Oh, and might as well pick-up WCML South while you're at it.


DTG might not be the best at route creation or listening to customer feedback, but their sales team could sell snow to Eskimos.

 

I do feel the services on the "classic lines" don't feel so realistic, you wouldn't pick up a train at Strood and drive it to Faversham only to see it carry on to the coast, similarly for the class 700 services. They do make the route nice and busy and it is great for wandering around train spotting but I find I rarely drive any services not using the 395. This is why I would love a route for the class 465 and probably the class 700,

 

Admittedly, the 395 services do feel the most realistic particularly if going to/from Faversham. Which is fine as the runs usually take between 40-60 minutes.

Not so much for the conventional stock though, but they're offset by the 395 services, the Ashford extension, and the sheer variety found throughout the route.

It's a nice balance I find, ticking the right boxes to make the route seem longer, all the while having the high variety for it to not become boring. Something I find many other routes lacking.