Cane Creek Sound

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nberneck99, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. nberneck99

    nberneck99 Well-Known Member

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    To no surprise at all, DTG has reused the same sounds from SPG for cane creek. According to the stream it was too difficult to get the correct sounds. It seems that time and time over the same sounds are reused even though they are highly inaccurate, especially the awful synthetic horn, and missing the iconic air compressor whoop.
    Now it may seem trivial to those outside the US, but here’s an example of what an ac4400cw should sound like.

    I for sure won’t be getting this route due to this, and it makes me very weary of rush hour.

     
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  2. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    they are reusing entire locos in Rush Hour so are perfectly entitled to reuse the same horns for them :P
     
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  3. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    "Authentic and detailed sound recordings, recorded from the real locomotives", this is their statement on the Steam website. They just keep lying and lying and think that we believe in their words. Like i said, third parties like TSG and AP save tsw regarding sounds. Without third parties, tsw is a complety joke regarding sounds, and they state that this is an accurate to real life simulator and trains aahahahahah
     
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  4. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    The sounds in this game will always be subpar as long as AP and Searchlight Simulations/The Audio Shack are not able to mod it.
     
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  5. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    As a European, I recently started getting some US HO models. It is therefore even more baffling to me, how a tiny loco with two sugar cube-sized speakers can sound better in a big room than these in a headset. Such a model would probably have a bigger excuse to sound like a vacuum cleaner, yet it produces the correct rumble. Please DTG, get the sounds sorted on US trains (not appealing to Skyhook here, as this is more of a core issue). It's a disaster. The route itself with all its other flaws could be a solid 8/10, but this easily brings it down to a 4-5/10.
     
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  6. Trainiac

    Trainiac Well-Known Member

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    But it wasn't DTG who made the route. Surely it would be Skyhooks responsibility to provide new sounds for the locos they'd use.
     
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  7. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    It hurts me to say it, but they've lost my purchase b/c of the sounds. The route looks stunning visually there's quite a bit of content for it, but I can't justify the $30 to drive this with the horrible engine audio screaming in my ear.

    I try to keep my criticism as constructive as possible, but...
    If Skyhook themselves were unable to source sounds, that's understandable, they're somewhat new to this. But DTG has had what, 4-5 years of TSW to source true, better sounds for American content, so while yes, the last 14-16 months have made things difficult, there really is no excuse. What is going wrong that agreements can't be even be made with other content creators/makers that could provide 3rd party sounds. If I was lead on TSW I would be embarrassed that people are making content for TS1 that is superior to TSW content. If you're going to brand the game as the next generation of train simulation, you can't keep using the old TS1 sounds, and say "they're not that bad." If you're not from N. America, it probably doesn't bother you as much, but those of us from here know it's wrong. GE AC traction motors are LOUD, and they're not present at all, so it might as well just be a dash 9. The 7FDL is very bassy with a "chug" like sound and the turbo charger should NOT be the dominant sound as you throttle up (yes you should hear it, but not like in game). And this is just the AC4400, I won't even touch the EMDs.
    And just to be clear, I don't fault Skyhook, and I really hope they continue making content, because everything else really does look stellar. I'm entirely faulting DTG here, who doesn't seem to give too much care into quality N. American content.
    And I'll be 100% honest, as a short term compromise, I would be ok if they'd just take the sounds back into mixing, turn down the turbo whine, boost the bass and remix it. That might be at least tolerable. Youtube obviously isn't source material for many reasons, but it's a great source for checking how the audio & mixing worked out.
     
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Even they themselves do, AC4400s yesterday sounded a lot better on Tehachapi.
     
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  9. jimi01us

    jimi01us New Member

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    Amen!!
     
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  10. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    American locos are beasts, they're powerful. They can be heard from miles away, and they'll destroy anything that gets in their path. This is something that TSW fails to recreate. Imo the F40 and F7 are the only good sounding locos in the game. The rest have either ok or trash sounds, like the AC4400CW. How come DTG can reach out to AP and TSG for British and German train audio but they can't ask for help from an American third party? Is it really that hard?
     
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  11. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    We just had the very same discussion in another thread. Check this out:
     
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  12. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Oof, but are there any other devs that DTG could reach out to for American loco sounds? I don't think SS is the only one.
     
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  13. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I‘m sure there are, but can‘t say for sure. As a console TSW player, I‘ve got no idea what 3rd parties exist from TS. But I hope they find a third party for US content. The cooperation with TSG and AP show what a huge impact these can have on overall quality.
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how much he was charging dtg for the sound. Perhaps dtg should've took the offer. It's not as if they are short on cash
     
  15. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    The only other candidates are the gentleman from Oovee who used to do sounds for TS20xx. And the other is The Audio Shack.
     
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  16. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Probably a lot. They once pulled their CP AC4400 loco within weeks because it wasn't selling enough. Who does that? LOL
     
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Seems odd tbh. I wonder if dtg would do that to their own products that aren't "selling enough"
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    From what I know about the in game sounds of the AC4400CW apparently the acceleration curve got broken when porting it to TSW2 (as pointed out on another thread).
    The sounds themselves (the audio clips) were never going to change... it's clear Skyhook didn't have the resources to build locomotives from the ground up, if they had, they wouldn't have done two locos already in the game.

    To the defense of DTG. They did record sounds from CalTrain for Peninsula Corridor (F40PH, Baby bullet and relative coaches), this IMO shows that's the problem is not that DTG is not willing do it, especially since they know how much those sounds are hated.

    Without knowing what's going on behind the scenes we can't judge them, how do we know they approached CSX for sound recording and were denied?

    The sad truth (IMO) is that they simply can't improve those sounds, not only they can't get to the US to record new sounds, they seemingly can't fix the old TSW2020 sounds, the M7 is still mediocre, the talent is practically silent, the BR182 is exactly as before, etc...

    Knowing that they seem to be unable to correct obviously broken sounds in various Pres.Co trains, I have no idea how can someone expect for them to be improved...which is really strange considering these exact sounds (AC4400) have been corrected by a mod. Sam had the right idea of getting the community more involved and making some mods part of the stock game, what did go wrong?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Wood, from Oovee (whom I believe you are referring to), now works at Searchlight Simulations. And, respectfully, he has had a history of pulling his creations from the Internet if the feedback is not strong enough or overtly negative. I remember this distinctly with his freeware P42DC sound pack (which was excellent, by the way. What a shame he never put it back) because of negative or whiny YouTube comments, and infamously, the CP AC440CW was pulled for lack of sales.

    Indeed. To be even more precise, the prime mover and turbo sound files used to be separate, and the audio engine would mix them together in real time. This meant that one easy improvement to the engine sounds simply required replacing the turbo sounds with silence or turning their volume way down in Audacity and recompiling the sounds. In TSW2, the sound files were downmixed so that the prime mover and turbo sound files are no longer separately mixed. The change in the sound cues and curves in TSW2 is one step on top of that, making it seem like there was some effort to actually change ("improve") the sounds, rather than it just being an accident. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the sounds were only worsened.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  20. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Right. I remember that P42 sound pack. I will check my archives if I still have it.
     
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  21. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, true. But the AC4400 sound issues are more in the bad source material, not the sound curves. The fact that there's elements missing (as I pointed out) also doesn't help.

    The sound issues get brought up with every new US route release, and we get the same answer every time with a rather dismissive attitude, or at least it comes off that way. I distinctly remember this being brought up with the Dash 8 release last November, and there was talk about DTG reaching out to other parties for new source material, so no I wasn't expecting them to be improved, I was hoping some forward progress. IMO the bigger issue here is the lack of parity in quality of source material for UK/Germany vs. North America, and the vibe that hasn't changed in the 2 years I've played this game and been on the forums is that this isn't changing.

    For me personally, sound is incredibly important to my game experience. For others, it's lighting, physics, game play, route length, etc. Everyone is different as to what they prioritize. I have rarely touched the 146.2/185.2 since TSW2, I rarely play SPG because the audio, I avoid driving the SD40 on CRR all because of the poor audio. That's quite a lot of material that I'm not getting to play. To those that don't prioritize sound, that probably sounds stupid. But I've lived with a CSX branch line less than 100ft from my back door for 14 years. It's mostly ES44AH's & ES40DCs now, but I know what these trains sound like - the horn echoing in the distance at the crossings near by, the low rumble as the engines approach, and the roar as they pass, there's nothing like it - and having something in game that sounds like it was engineered in a laboratory with a couple vacuum cleaner just doesn't do it. I've tried a couple of the mods on trainsimcommunity, but the one for the AC4400 is botched in a couple notches which makes it worse. The Dash 8 mod is decent, but comes from a 7FDL-12 engine. Callum B.'s mod is the best I've seen so I'm hoping to get some enjoyment using that. I don't expect DTG to have perfection, but I really shouldn't need to hunt down mods to just get something I paid for to sound even slightly realistic.
     
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  22. jimi01us

    jimi01us New Member

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    Yes, there's nothing like the Thundering Ground Shaking sound of a ES44AH.
     
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  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I am not arguing that sounds is not important, it is, and DTG is aware of that. The problem is that I think they are just not able to improve it in any way, they tried to bring the M7 and Talent audio back to TSW2020 level and failed. My point is that, I don't know what's the problem but sound seems like it's incredibly hard to get right (whether the problem is using the right sound clips or mixing), even new releases, like Cathcart were the 314 has great sounds, it still is too quiet.

    I also agree with your point, you shouldn't look out for mods to make the game decent, Sam proposed to make some mods part of the game some time ago, but after some were apparently being considered we never heard of it again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  24. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    We've got "official" confirmation on this by Maik Goltz. I can't remember where he posted it but some time ago, he commented on how incredibly hard it is to get sound right in TSW and that it boils down to a ton of trial and error. That's probably also why DTG sound is a bit hit and miss - they're always short on time (and therefore probably don't have the time for truly extensive trial and error) but they may still sometimes get it right in an early attempt.
     
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  25. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Oh the visuals that conjured up. Lol.

    Just out of interest have you tried Run8? Visually its not great, but its sound is usually excellent including air compressors.

    I too like decent quality sounds, I don't think sound would stop me using the loco but yes, better sound makes for a better experience and I wish they were better in TSW.

    I spent about eight hours this week improving the sound of an old model steam loco to make it work in Trainz2019 so I could use it on my stream. I did not get it entirely right, but I got it much better than it was and in that game its basically playing sound files at various steps and shifts. I guess you could say sound is important to me. Then of course I watch my own stream on playback and discover I blew the levels with me massively drowning out the train... sigh.

    Paul
     
  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps DTG should start getting more in touch with some more third parties for American Locomotives because it's very clear that they can't do sound for those trains in tsw2. I may not play tsw on pc but I find it ridiculous that some have to go find mods to improve the audio of a train which they spent $30 on. I had to do the same for the Metro North M7A and M8 in TS2021. You think after almost 5 years of this game being out they would make a step forward in that department but clearly they have not. They haven't even fixed the audio on the LIRR M7 which came to tsw2 with worse audio than 2020 either so it seems American Trains in this game seem to be at the bottom when it comes to sounds.
     
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  27. upstatenyrailfan

    upstatenyrailfan Member

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    I'm glad this is being brought up. I was also curious what happened with the SD40-2 sounds on Clinchfield, wasn't a leslie RS3L in the works for it or at least it was stated during the preview stream. As a consumer i would at least want decent sounds. Its a shame that all the SD40-2 sounds are just reused from the CSX SD40-2 and same with the AC44s as of right now. Maybe at some point down the road Searchlight or some US third party company can fix the result of these sounds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
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  28. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    For players on console, what they have to realize is that we cannot depend on mods to make our game playable. In fact, nobody should have to depend on them. The sad part about this is that the only American route I play frequently is Peninsula Corridor. The others just have terrible sounds, and this is especially true compared with their British counterparts.

    I understand the devs aren’t able to travel. But can’t they do what they did with the F7 and synthesize a decent sounding horn? Or do whatever it was they did to make the new TS Classic UP AC4400CWs. I’m just not understanding why they’re doing nothing. An explanation from the devs would help a lot. This whole thing also makes me worried for the NEC route.
     
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  29. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    No need, they recorded Amtrak.
     
  30. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Although I am a PC player and I can throw mods in to save things, I completely agree the game needs to stand on its own. Mods should only be enhancements over a solid base, not patches for broken factors.
     
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  31. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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  32. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how modders do what they do, but...
    One thing which I think is probably an even bigger issue than the raw source material, and I mentioned this on a thread a while back, IMO whoever mixes audio on the main team has a thing for wayyy overprocessing the audio mixes which strips the final product of basically any life. I'd love to hear the raw material for some of these locos, and I'd be willing to bet they're decent (not perfect, but probably decent). And by the time the mixing is done, it's smoothed out, bass is gone, and it sounds soulless.

    Modders also don't play to the same licensing rules as DTG, which opens them up to using sources which may be less than ideal from a legal standpoint.
     
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  33. jimi01us

    jimi01us New Member

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    Yes you're right. All the Ground Pounding Thundering BASS is gone.
     
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  34. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    They should honestly just contract somebody from America to re-mix and synthesize sounds for the American content. It’s understandable that they don’t have much to reference off of, but somebody actually living around these trains would know how to get them right. I’m even gonna say I think I could do better given the right tools. I know it’s pretentious but I have some experience with Logic Pro and I might be able to at least make them a bit better (not a job offer, just pointing out the poor quality).
     
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  35. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but they also recorded CSX and we saw how that turned out…
     
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  36. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    No they didn't.
     
  37. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    If we leave the sound engineering part aside, lots of modders use material protected by copyrights without owning the rights for it while DTG and any respectable companies can't do.

    Let's look at ETS, the producer has no license for petrol stations, warehouses, stores, and supermarkets, they only have licenses from the truck and trailer manufacturers. From the modding community, you can easily get mods that change the made-up names to real ones which greatly increases immersion and realism.

    If you got the right sounds, even an average sound engineer should be able to do a decent job. But if you have to make up the sounds from zero and mix them then it's a completely different beast.

    As it was mentioned for the livery editor, they can't support sharing due to copyrights but they can turn a blind eye to material created via their tool and placed on modding sites. With this in mind, there is some room in the "grey area" for sounds through complete externalization of this aspect of the game.
     
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  38. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Recording the sounds is one thing.

    Getting clearance to do so is another.
     
  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well these modders seem to be allowed to do so
     
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  40. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    I doubt anyone asked before publishing the mod.

    Same as for Nintendo ROM Sites. There were a lot of happy years until Nintendo found out ... and sued every freakin' last one of them to hell.
    -> https://www.kotaku.com.au/2021/06/nintendo-sues-rom-site-into-oblivion/
    -> https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/11/20860039/nintendo-copyright-trademark-infringement-rom-lawsuit

    Same thing could happen, if any owner of recordings finds out that their intelectual property is online, takes a lawyer and investigate the real person behind the username that uploaded the mod. Matter of interest and/or time, but I don't know how much is "in it" for the rights holder,if it pays off.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Oh heck no. Technically, it's piracy. They get away with it because nobody is going to sic lawyers on a little modder, but a game studio doesn't dare.
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well it seems a train company doesn't care about audio of their trains being implemented into a game. If that was the case then I guess every single person who made a audio mod for ts2021 would've gotten sued
     
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  43. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Read this again:
    Just because no legal action is taken does not make something any more legal. I dare say any railroad has more pressing issues to deal with than some modder uploading sounds that are technically pirated, but this starts looking very different if a company starts using them in a monetised way. Seriously though, why are DTG always asked to defend themselves for doing things legally?
     
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  44. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Active Member

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    Some probably took the recordings with their phone. A small, inconspicuous recorder that records in decent quality is relatively cheap like a Zoom H1N.
     
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  45. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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  46. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    There are some interesting and totally wrong concepts on IP and Copyright here. If I was to record a locomotive I own the Copyright to the sound, not the owner of the locomotive. It is the same as if I take a photo or make a video of it. The owner of the locomotive has no claim over it at all..... until you use it commercially then its a good idea to have publication sign off. That is probably where DTG come unstuck and modders can go at it all they want.
     
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  47. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    I am not sure how Unreal sets up the sound modules, but there is a real limit on the number of sounds which can be mixed. Below is a quote from Searchlight Simulations on the limitations on sound in TS2021:

    v>
    Our AC4400 simulation requires a lot of game resources to deliver the all-around experience and in such it will consume
    most of the 256 available sound slots the game is capable to run simultaneously. This means that often you will “run” out
    of available sound slots and thus no longer hear certain sounds. This can occur when switching from the in-cab view to
    any of the external cameras. Since we require more external than internal sounds, you will run out of external sounds with
    too many locomotives running in your consist or with heavy AI traffic. Even though you won't always run out of sound slots
    in-game, it is a common occurrence from time to time.

    Maybe this is part of the problem with TSW
     
  48. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    It is. 16 channel per RV/train is a set max at the moment (its not that easy to count, because of the way how UE4 handles the channels). 32 channel is the max for all sound on XBox One, 128 on PS4, 256 on PC. So the actual limit is set by the standard XBox One to 32 at all. This will change i believe, but also then, the possibilities are bit restricted already in what you can do (mostly in terms of the time you need to create it ... in TS1 you put your sound into the soundproxy BP and maybe some LUA and thats it, in TSW you often have to doa a lot more to get basic audio working). Too many factors to tell exactly what is good or bad with it.

    And about copyright stuff. If you record the sound of a RV by yourself, you own the rights of it, no matter who is the owner of the loco/wagon/whatever. You can commercially use it. Audio, produced by a machine is not protected until the sound is generated with a special purpose (and coming from speakers instead of aggregates). But often modders are using YT resources or other stuff where they dont have the rights for.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In terms of strict copyright you are correct. However, DTG dont know that. They don't know if the chap proffering the recording is telling the truth, or if he just pirated it from somewhere. And there are additional legal headaches, such as whether the person trespassed on railroad property to make the recording (this us highly likely in the case of in-cab sounds). In short, DTG as a commercial concern doesn't dare use a recording unless it comes with a complete paper trail.
     
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  50. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I gave some of these a trial run last night https://mods.trainsimcommunity.com/mods/c3-train-sim-world-2/c20-sounds give 'em a crack - just saying ;) - sound mod community to the rescue. They are non destructive, download the .pak file and drop it into the TSW2 DLC folder. If you decide you don't like it or it gives you problems just delete the PAK file. Not much use for console people but well worth it on PC. Some of them conflict (sounds for the same loco) so choose wisely.

    Paul
     
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