Cathcart, What A Let Down!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Rich_84, Aug 23, 2021.

  1. Rich_84

    Rich_84 Member

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    So I thought I would try Cathcart circle as I like busy commuter routes, the route itself looks good & the 314 is rather good as well but the route suffers the same problem as others, lack of AI!

    Glasgow station feels too empty for such a big station, in reality there would be a lot more trains coming & going.
     
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  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think they made a mistake going with Cathcart as their first ScotRail route, it would of made a much better supporting DLC rather than a premier of a new city with a new operator, because now we just have this empty terminus station that should actually be bustling.
     
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  3. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Glasgow central deserved to be shown as a busy terminus with the WCML services running in and out too, not just the local service.

    The Bakerloo line also its fine when you are running in the tunnels but once you get to the sections running next to the WCML it just lacks the immersion of seeing the other train service running on the mainline.
     
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  4. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    This is the worst route I have seen for pop ups, poles just appear seconds away. So obvious and ruins the immersion.
     
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  5. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how Cathcart won't get additional DLC in future. But these things take time. Building a route and just 1 new loco can take several months. As we know DTG focus on several DLCs. By the time 1 DLC is released the team is working on more additional DLCs. Its lacking the "busy commuter route" feeling for now but let's see...
     
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  6. HaibaraHariko

    HaibaraHariko Active Member

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    So how can they add AI trains when there's no proper trains in the game? What we need now is more routes with more new trains, and that takes time. WSR just got extra trains after all these years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Do you think it would have been practicable to develop a whole new loco for Cathcart, just to provide undrivable AI traffic at GC?
     
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  8. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    I just think in some cases the route choice is wrong, maybe a Glasgow Central to Carlisle but that would be too long I guess as DTG only do routes of a certain length, maybe then to Edinburgh via Carstairs, by all means include the Cathcart circle for the commuter services, but also have the mainline services to and from Carstairs and Edinburgh, but then it comes down to the licensing from the TOCs I expect.

    As is they only need the Scotrail license, so its cheaper for them.
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    In some respects a North Clyde route would have been better, running through Queen Street Low Level as much less diversity in terms of other traffic.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The "problem" DTG have is that they want to create routes with iconic locations, but that means having at least 5 different locos or MUs created and operational to do any terminal station justice. They would have to avoid almost any "minorly major" station in a new location to not leave some people feeling underwhelmed.

    Of course in this instance once you get out onto the circle itself it is pretty much one or two classes that are seen, but people want Glasgow, not some random urban two platform station...

    Surely this would mean TWO empty terminal stations...
     
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  11. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    Well well! Was I right two months ago after all? ;)

    On the day of release, I doubted whether the Cathcart Circle Line DLC would actually deliver the "experience the hustle and bustle of a modern suburban network" as promised in the commercials. And I asked if mapping this type of route in TSW makes sense at all, since it is known that normally busy stations will be empty in TSW due to the lack of mapped AI traffic on neighboring lines.

    But in June everyone was delighted with the new DLC. Someone even advised me to do a "reality check" if I expect faithfully reproduced AI traffic containing more than one or two types of trains. My expectations that AI traffic on adjacent lines should also be added to the DLC route seemed quite ridiculous two months ago :| And yet I mean some simplified models not available to the player! Making a model for AI is certainly not as complex as making a model that can be operated by the player!

    I'm glad that something is changing in players' attitudes, because it may force the publisher to rethink the business plan. Maybe when we stop buying absolutely everything DTG gives us, it will turn out that adding a few additional AI trains to the new DLC route is perfectly feasible and profitable. Especially since TSW is limited to practically three countries, the rolling stock library that needs to be made for AI trains is not that huge!
     
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  12. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I did ask about inverclyde services in one of the previews and I think the answer was simply they couldn't do it in the time allowed. I think had they been done the lack of WCML services wouldn't have been that noticeable IMO. It honestly doesn't really bother me that there's only the CCL services in the route.

    Oh sorry I forgot opinion's changed: I agree, it's a load of rubbish - the worst DLC ever released...
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG have not (to my knowledge) ever made a simplified AI specific model. AI trains have simple physics, but the models are the same whether a player drives them or not.
    In TS1 the community have made some simplified locos (the 700 is the best known one) but these are almost exclusively where the dev wanted to make a full version of the unit, and due to "community pressure" gave up and walked off, releasing the non-drivable version to shut people up. The 185 is another example of AI only, but I have seen people trying to make this drivable even though the original dev gave up (again, because they got hounded)

    Not sure on this... DTG seem to make their locos in a very elaborate way (rebuilding from scratch for each version of the electrostar for one), and even a simple terminus like Paddington or Victoria in London both have five or six basic train types constantly in and out

    In other words "It's not that simple"
     
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  14. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    I imagine it's not that easy, but I think it is doable :)

    The rolling stock is grouped into a kind of "families". For example, the appearance of the British Rail Class 377 differs from the British Rail Class 375 only in minor details. For an AI train, without an interactive interior, it would be enough to paint Class 377 trains in Southeastern colors and hardly anyone would notice ;) Similarly, British Rail Class 313 trains are very similar from the outside to the British Rail Class 314 - for the AI model there would be no need to start from scratch, it would be enough to change the pantograph into a contact shoe.

    If DTG actually creates each model from scratch, even if it's 90% similar to another model, it is their choice and not an objective necessity. And it can be changed :)
     
  15. Hidden Donkey

    Hidden Donkey Active Member

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    you do realise how terrible that would look everyone would notice have you seen this forum complain about smaler thing than this
     
  16. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    The lower poly AI only trains are a great idea. Similar to the TTB packs for TS1? Simple physics, none drivable trains. Don't need to model a cab, create animations, controls or detailed interiors. It would help fill up stations and yards, and act as AI on the stuff that just goes into secondary portals. Hell I wouldnt be even be too bothered about accurate sounds.
     
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  17. Jonne1184

    Jonne1184 Member

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    Lower quality AI trains actually do already exist on LIRR, however were only placed as statics in scenarios.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    People will want to walk onto an AI train and be a passenger, so "without an interactive interior" would still cause issues
    Erm... Don't think so. They have different electrical systems so the sounds of those systems would be different, there's a difference in compressor sounds too, and of course things like sparking shoes when they run onto the new transmission rails would be a thing.

    Again, it's not that simple (to accommodate everyone's expectations)
     
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  19. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    Not if they include all the associated rolling stock that uses the route, basing a route on one type of rolling stock is always going to mean it will lack the variety to make the route seem more realistic, but I guess that depends how realistic and immersive a route people want it to be.
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    At Edinburgh Waverley...
    Which has much more than Glasgow Central I believe...
     
  21. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    This is why I made a suggestion of hubs, making a particular station and several of the routes that run into it so you get that traffic layering up and it feels at that station at least very busy. This would influence the decision of what to make next based on say building out from a existing terminus from another route to build up a hub, this provides some structure and makes a start in building out a network of routes. I hope that we might get a first view of the possibilities of this in the BML where we have two routes sharing one terminus.

    Maybe then we might get the WCW to complete the set around Brighton and other lines that run into Glasgow and St Pancras. E.g. Edinburgh to Glasgow, or St Pancras to Luton/Bedford on the MML.
     
  22. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    Include the rolling stock that goes between the 2 stations with that on top of what use the Cathcart circle would be make it more than it is at the moment, its not hard to understand, but of course that would meant that DTG has to obtain more TOC licenses so for them only having to obtain the one is the most cost effective for sure.
     
  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would be a definite fan of this idea, building up networks over a year rather than disparate systems. If they started with Victoria as an example you've got Brighton, the 465 and 377, so then work on the 466, 455 and so on.
    Then next year do Glasgow or Manchester or Birmingham, or Mumbai, Melbourne or Jakarta
    This means we know that in that one year we're getting to see a good network, they know they're going to get enough sales on that network to allow for development of signalling systems etc and people get actual busy and populated routes (and more rolling stock). Of course they can still do disparate systems for other countries but they have one "network per year" of three associated routes.

    With regards to BRI/ECW/WCW I don't see these as a network per se, mainly because for the most part trains don't come down from London and "turn left" and I don't think any go from WCW to ECW, so besides a bit more AI and ECS from the depot linking these up wouldn't add much in terms of gameplay
    I'd personally prefer the link from Lewes to the BML up the line so you could do full runs from Eastbourne or Hastings to London without "the gap" (let alone 66 runs from the aggregate terminal up towards Acton)
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think there's about six or seven different classes that run a lot of that route, and loads of classes at WAV itself. Of course if you could get the main Scotrail classes it would be "halfway there" but no doubt people would want everything
     
  25. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    Well at the moment the route has 1 class of stock, but then its not the only route that suffers from a lack of variety when it comes to what to drive on it.
     
  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. We are very much limited by what DTG want to produce, but then I would prefer they produce routes and hopefully populate them down the line than not produce routes they can't populate right now
     
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