Chatham Main Line: London - Dover & Ramsgate Route Out Now

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 749006, Dec 17, 2021.

  1. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
  2. SJA

    SJA Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    219
    Would have completely missed this. This is actually what quite a lot of people wanted - full Kent runs. dEaD sImUlAtOr though :D

    I might just write the newer stock/route names I don't have on pieces of paper and pull a couple out of a hat as I am rather undecided at the moment.
     
  3. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    I'm sorry, but I have to rain on the parade here. Look at this:

    https://steamdb.info/sub/615045/apps/

    If you already own the Chatham Main Line, and also the livery pack, you get no discount. This is a huge problem with the DTG store in general. A discount needs to be provided for existing owners. It's even more of a slap in the face if you own the original Faversham route; it's basically included in here but without the extension to Camden past Gravesend. Rainham also appears on that original route, as well.

    So if you don't own Chatham or Faversham, this is a great single route. But if you own both, we're being asked to pay for a full route (by now for a third time) to get the Dover and Ramsgate extensions. Otherwise we're left behind by those who didn't support DTG in the first place and only bought the new route now. This is inconceivable. A discount ought to be granted for an upgrade to the route for existing owners. It's not worth $40 just to go to Dover and Ransgate. It just isn't.

    I was wondering why that question was avoided like the plague during the livestream. Now I know why.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  4. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Really tempted by this just because of the new 465 model.
     
  5. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    That's not true - we didn't know, no one had told us that part :), and I sadly can't comment any more than that.

    (a point though - I don't set the prices - I just route build ;) )
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    I'm not blaming you Danny. I just know I asked the question multiple times and there was no answer. Chat was going pretty fast, so it's understandable. The people who set the prices seem to forget they have existing customers who already own two thirds of the content and should not have to pay full price for the update. What's next, a Camden add-on for the route for another $20? The line for Ashford International added for another $30? All that being bundled in a future $40 package? That's the problem. The people who set the prices don't have a clue.
     
  7. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    I understand your frustration but in this case, I have to stay out of the conversation. (PS please don't see this as ignoring the comment - I'm sure those above will see it, I just feel it's not my place in this regard)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    I understand Danny, I was surprised you even replied in the first place. :cool:

    But please do pass on this concern. I can get a lot out of the Faversham and Chatham routes without buying this extension. If they want me to add on, they will have to do a better job pricing it. In this case, Dover should have been sold as-is as a single item, and a bundle created with the Chatham line and the 375 included. That way, owners of both the 375 and the Chatham line would be able to have the bundle discounted so they only pay for the extension. Those wanting the full route bundle could turn around and buy the full route bundle. Even if they only own Chatham, or only the 375, it still discounts (though not as much as having both) and get what's missing.

    BTW, you ever get my comment on the Marias merge?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
  9. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    I had a steam glitch with a comment on a "deleted" item, but thank you for mentioning it, I would have missed it :)
     
  10. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    Cheers.

    A deleted item, odd.
     
  11. frank351981

    frank351981 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    53
    Now I must say something: As owner of the earlier Chatham, Chatham & Medway (and the Faversham) routes I would also have liked an discount for the new extended Chatham route. BUT: as mentioned in the product describtion we get here:
    - the extension to Blackfriars (3 miles)
    - the extension from Faversham to Ramsgate (~28 miles)
    - the extension from Faversham to Dover (~25 miles)
    When I look into a map to see what all is now new added [https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/de/map/train-simulator-2021_252726#10/51.2619/0.5953] we became approx. 50 miles additional lenght.
    So I must say: to demand a discount (additional to the releaste start 10% discount?) is something like outrageous. And otherside people moan about the quality. It´s like people who want in a supermarket the cheapest piece of meat with the highest quality. That´s not realistic.
    Whom someone this is to expensive he should wait until someday comes a sale with 20% or more discount or should leave generally TS-addons behind
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
    I was unsure about what the route might offer and I'm disappointed.

    I already have L2F and the original Chatham Mainline - I later purchased the Medway Valley "Extension" which it's not.
    So I have two routes that cover the same section of track from London to Rochester and now a third comes out doing the same.
    The new route adds 27mi 24ch from Faversham to Ramsgate and 25mi 29ch from Faversham to Dover Priory.
    And the bit in to Blackfriars.
    It does not give me anything new in rolling stock.

    I don't see the point in purchasing what I already own most of.
    If somehow it was an Extension to one of the previous routes I would have bought it

    Peter
     
  13. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
    But it is not an Extension that adds to what you already own - it is a stand alone route
    Yes, like me you own the 3 other routes thru Rochester but this just makes a fourth - why do we need 4 routes?

    It would have been better if the route was a proper Extension like Sheerness.
     
  14. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Do we think the new 465 will ever be made available as a standalone purchase?
     
  15. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    Frank, see the link I gave. The Chatham Mainline from London to Gillingham is required to run the route, or otherwise it would not be included in the package. Those of us owning the route, and also the add-on livery (the latter would not apply to me), are getting no discount for this. Faversham is not in the bundle, though it could be argued owning THAT should also grant a discount. though I find it unfortunate that Faversham got truncated at Gravesend when DTG previously explored beyond that point.

    I can respect that perhaps Faversham is redone for a different era and thus still unique. Someone (Danny or Jamie) said as much on Wednesday on stream when the question came up. Assuming that, my concern about the livery add-on and the original route not being discounted for those owners is a valid discount request. I'm only saying to discount the things that players already own, don't make them buy those items a second time. It's not like we can then give the second copy to someone else. We're otherwise paying more than a new customer would. Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying here. :cool:
     
  16. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    Rainham to Faversham and Sheerness were updated with newer scenery (a lot more than the rest of the older route), and Faversham is an updated station that first 12 car trains. (Newington station was updated, as was Teynham (although Newington more so)

    (I can't talk about the prices though :) - I don't make decisions on this so can't have an opinion on it)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  17. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    As I already said Danny, I am not asking you to comment on pricing. :D I can already utilize a better contact method for that kind of question, but my concern goes beyond just this route and its contents, also discussing other "bundles".

    Thank you also for the details on what was updated, that helps the discussion and shows that Faversham in a sense is a completely different working. Sheerness obviously is just tied on as it makes sense to have that too, but I presume it also got scenery updates (EDIT: you said it did, oops).

    I did DM you with an interesting question Danny, but I will keep that there until we know the answer for sure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
  18. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    708
    Have been waiting for Dover and Ramsgate to be included. Will be a Christmas present from me to me. Sad that those who own the original, cannot have a discount for what is an add-on to what they already own which would have been acceptable. I have the original route plus the Sheerness extension, but am happy to add Ramsgate and Dover and the 465 to my collection.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
  19. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    998
    Purchased this route earlier today, I must admit the extensions are very well done and it's finally nice to do full length runs on this route. Still need to explore the Sheerness branch and see what changes have been made to the original section though. Well done to all involved!

    I will comment on the price; I purchased this route mainly because it is fairly local to me and I know it quite well, so it was too tempting to wait until a sale. However for others, I can imagine not having a discount set up for owners of the original version(s) is a bit odd- especially when you think in terms of newer players buying this route for the first time getting more content for their money.

    Also why wasn't this route sold as an extension like with Frankfurt High Speed, North Wales Coastal to Holyhead and Soldier Summit to Salt Lake? I thought the old practice of reselling routes like this was finished after South Wales Coastal and Medway Valley?
     
  20. brummie

    brummie Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    47
    Hi Airbourne Alex,
    I have a question for you, did you try the new Class 465? Sounds like a noob question, if you did, how did you get the thing to move? I did the 'usuals' and nothing, then checked the manual and it only shows cab view and what the buttons do.

    Regards
     
  21. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    998
    Mine worked ok, are you using the F4 HUD by chance? If so this model has a master key and four position reverser which the HUD doesn't show. You need to click on the master key in-cab to unlock the reverser and then just set the reverser to forward and draw power as usual.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. brummie

    brummie Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    47
    Than you for your very fast reply. It worked after your suggestion. For some reason I turned the key both ways when it didn't work first time but after your suggestion I used 'shift +w' key and all Gucci again.

    All the best and thanks a lot. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    998
    Good to hear- no worries :)
     
  24. james37611

    james37611 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2021
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    So far looks excellent from what I've seen! Very nice to be able to do the full Ramsgate and Dover to London Victoria services! Didn't even know this was WIP, was very surprised to see this [​IMG]

    From a scenario writers perspective, what I've seen so far that from Faversham to Ramsgate, there is only 2 portals, East of Faversham and then nothing until past Ramsgate, not that it's too important, if doing a normal timetable then it's a spread out service anyway.

    Also if you are like me an like to use the Stopping Marker and place these by the car stop boards for realistic AI stopping positions, it's a bit long winded. Once you place one down and name it, say, Chatham P1 4 car, and then select that location in the AI timetable, it will default to the first [Railfan] location and create an error. You need to refresh, only quick way I know is by pressing the small white playback button, then re-winding the time, then letting it re-load then it will have the correct location in the timetable. Unfortunately this will happen every time you use a stop marker, and every time an AI uses the same stop marker, and of course when you refresh you go back to the scenario marker so you have to keep jumping back to where you were before. I may be missing something maybe there is a way around this?
     
  25. brummie

    brummie Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    47
    I'm well pleased with this from what I have seen so far. The run into Blackfriars Station is awesome and also had a drive around the Dover area. Like the new modelled class 465, (Sounds not bad either), so all in all this was worth a punt from me. Only one scenario using Blackfriars Stn. as far as I can make out but hopefully there will be a few work shop scenarios coming through. Route appears very nicely done.
     
  26. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
    There is another thread on Technical Reports about this and other faults with the route.
     
  27. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    708
    I am surprised to hear this, as it is very unlike DTG to release a route with bugs. Rivet seem to release routes with defect faults in both the operation or scenery. I am sure DTG will correct all the faults pretty soon. I plan to buy the route tomorrow to add to my original and sheerness extension, so it will be interesting to see the improvements.
     
  28. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    You were not around for WCML South, I take it. Also, they made fixes to all three routes in 2022 edition.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    708
    There is some excellent detail in this route, it is really stunning and someone has gone to some effort with a lot of hard work to make this route look good and realistic. I am informed that someone worked on the Dover section as it is near his home and must of been a labour of love as it is pretty decent. I am really impressed with the high end detail. The stations have loads of detail and are very impressive. Canterbury East and Blackfriars are superb.

    Well done DTG. I will be buying this route. I already have Chatham and Medway Valley as well as Sheerness extension.

    Can anyone inform me when I install the new CML route do I delete any of the other three or do l need to keep them for the new route to work properly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  30. frank351981

    frank351981 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    53
    the route is standalone. But it not contains the Medway Valley or the Faversham Highspeed to London StPancras. When you want to drive on these, you need the other routes
     
  31. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
    If you have the other routes a merge has been created on the Workshop so you can drive St Pancras to Ramsgate/Dover over part of HS1
     
  32. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    Probably best to point out that it's only via Faversham (just to avoid confusion :), there is another route which isn't included with the merged routes or yet to be made)
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  33. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    Well, we know what needs to be done with that route, then. ;)
     
  34. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    182
    Sadly I don't think I would be able to do that any time soon :)
     
  35. PhÜnKî_Rø0sTā

    PhÜnKî_Rø0sTā Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2019
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    170
    Was going to ask if there was really any difference between this and the earlier Chatham & Medway valley route
     
  36. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    I thought I answered too, but that must have been on Discord.

    London to Gillingham is included with the route. Comparing this with the Medway Valley route, the best description is that this route does not contain Medway, and Medway does not contain this route. However, Chatham Main Line is fully included in both without the alternate extension. I am guessing by now Danny has been working on trying to merge all three, though I cannot speak for him and cannot comment on whether services would possibly go from Dover to Tonbridge (I'm going with a no on that, making a merge pointless unless freight uses it).
     
  37. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,535
    Likes Received:
    1,971
    The old main line from London to Dover is via Orpington - Tonbridge - Ashford to Folkestone and Dover and until HS1 was built this is the route the Eurostar trains took to get to the Chunnel.
    Most freight working either run this way or via Maidstone East to reach Ashford
    Before Eurostar the trains ran to Dover Western Docks for boat connections to Calais and Oostende.
    IKF Rail Mag Feb 2005b.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    929
    Likes Received:
    998
    It seems a lot of people are getting confused about how this route is different from previous releases:

    Chatham Main Line: London Victoria to Gillingham is the original release from 2016 and includes about one third of the total route along the western end that arrives into London.

    Chatham Main & Medway Valley Lines is the above but with the Medway Valley Line (Strood to Tonbridge) and a section of the North Kent Line (Gravesend to Strood). Only North Kent Line services actually go onto the Chatham Main Line, Medway Valley services typically stay on that line but there are a few ECS moves that use the curve at Strood linking the two. (Not sure why this route was released with the Chatham Main Line attached in the first place?).

    Chatham Main Line: London Victoria & Blackfriars to Ramsgate and Dover Priory is the new route which essentially completes the entire line making it full length and includes the Sheerness branch with updates to the entire route to make it present day, but does not include Medway Valley.

    Also note that the London to Faversham High Speed route from 2013 includes the Gravesend to Faversham section of the route but is based in 2012/2013 with noticeable differences, with Sheerness as an optional scenery pack.

    Where these routes all overlap is between Strood and Rainham.
    For comparison Carlisle also has four routes, and Darlington has five if you include freeware too.

    If you are thinking about purchasing any of these routes, probably best to buy the new Chatham Main Line: London Victoria & Blackfriars to Ramsgate and Dover Priory route as it already includes the original Chatham Main Line: London Victoria to Gillingham route for asset use along with a majority of the line from London to Faversham High Speed. Chatham Main & Medway Valley Lines is only beneficial now if you want the Medway Valley Line in particular. London to Faversham High Speed is probably only worth buying if you really want the High Speed segment from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet/Gravesend, otherwise just avoid it (you're not missing anything interesting if I'm honest).

    Lastly avoid buying the original Chatham Main Line as you will be paying more in the long term if you want the newer, longer version (it should ideally be removed from sale but there are other DLCs which depend on it for scenarios - though these should only need updating to show as needing either Chatham Main & Medway Valley Lines or Chatham Main Line: London Victoria & Blackfriars to Ramsgate and Dover Priory to work, since both routes include the route needed for the scenarios anyway).

    Even typing this out is getting confusing...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  39. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    Not only should CML be removed from sale, but a discount granted for people who already own it. It's the reason I have not purchased yet. Being honest here.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  40. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2020
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    556
    Aah, wondered why steam told me I already had the route. A distant sale perhaps?
     
  41. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    It comes with Chatham Medway. Heck, you might even have picked up the GBRL bundle, which includes Medway. That would have also gotten you Gillingham.

    BTW, speaking of GBRJ, that version of ECML to Peterborough does not give you the 801 directly. You'd either need to pick up another route that includes it (NEC, Pacific Surfliner, West Somerset among the options) or contact DTG asking for the DLC to be granted. The third option is find it in the GBRJ installation itself and copy it somewhere before removing the GBRJ itself from the hard drive and then permanently placing the 801 among your assets. This is something that Armstrong does NOT tell you regarding how to get the 801.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
  42. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2019
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    955
    The typical argument is as follows:
    • The old route is sold cheap.
      If you don't need the full experience, this is a preferred choice. Similar examples are NJCL and Soldier Summit.
      If you don't agree with "preferred", you can still see it as having options.
    • The new route is sold expensively.
      If you are a long term collector, the ideal choice is to pick it up anyway. You get more scenarios and often rolling stock.
      From sales perspective the nice solution is to put the package / collection very much in the front, if you open the old version.
    Usually collectors end up being on the lookout, I purchased a lot of routes as twin packs.
    I guess it's more about beginners but they likely don't know which category they fall into, yet. I have had a few mistakes myself, also ended up technically repurchasing items I still didn't play. Given I don't remember (maybe Chatham), I'd just mention NJCL or Soldier again, the latter was even included as TS yearly, twice.
     
  43. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    684
    I gather from the discussion that it’s basically some extensions to the existing CML, but has the ‘existing’ scenery been updated and improved in the new release?
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  44. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    708
    Yes, the new route has improved scenery and over 100 miles of track too. An excellent route worth investing in and enjoying now.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  45. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    684
    Cheers, I’ll have another bash at purchasing it later, when hopefully Steam is less congested, now its sale has started.

    Luckily I just received a compensation cheque from the power company after being left without power (and water!) for almost five days thanks to Storm Arwen, so I can at least feel a little less guilty at purchasing with only a 10% discount!
     
  46. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    They paid you for not providing power? The savings on not having to pay for such a useless thing should be enough. *watches power go out and cries from boredom*
     
  47. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    684
    Thankfully I managed to make my purchase at about the fifth attempt this morning!

    Yes, I believe all UK power companies have to provide compensation for any power cuts lasting over 24 hours:

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...ply/get-compensation-if-you-have-a-power-cut/

    For a severe storm, it's £70 for first 48 hours, then £70 for each subsequent 12 hours.

    No doubt they'll raise the direct debits to recoup the costs in due course!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  48. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    793
    Yes, hydro will mysteriously cost another 10 per month...
     
  49. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    708
    Pleased for you that you made a decision to purchase. It’s a very enjoyable route well designed and worth the cost.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  50. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    684
    Cheers. I've done one scenario and it does look very nice indeed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021

Share This Page