Clapham Junction Is Completely Wrong

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by markhazeldine, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I have some feedback on Clapham Junction in the new London Commuter route. I know you have bigger issues to deal with for console users right now, but as a PC user, I have other bug bares that I still think need seeing to at some point. As someone who has commuted through this station 1000s of times, I know it pretty well. Now, I just want to say, I don't expect it to be 100% perfect. It's a bloody big and complicated station, and I understand that this is meant to be a "representation", but as Sam said on the stream with Matt P the other day, this is meant to be a "simulator", not just a game, and as such, it should be a fairly faithful representation. I've made a list below of the big things, and I have a taken some screenshots below from the same position as some photos I've taken (or found), and let's see if you can spot the differences.

    Here is a summary of the errors in my eyes:
    1. Underpass at completely the wrong end of the station (this is the biggest one for me)
    2. Over bridge and glass boxes too high (was the same in TS too)
    3. Platform edge fences completely missing at the London end of the Victoria platforms
    4. Platform 17 wall not tall enough. The whole platform looks wrong basically
    5. Brick covered stairs on platform 7/8 missing
    6. Platform 7/8 SPAD indicator missing
    7. Platform 1-6 canopies look modern instead of old
    8. Platform 1B (London Overground) canopy completely missing
    9. Lots of detail missing in the yard including lighting gantries, Portakabins and a staircase down
    10. Lamp posts and signs should not be in green Southern colours
    11. PIS and platform number signs all in the wrong positions
    12. Clapham Signal Box B completely missing
    13. Giant blue office block is actually a grey apartment block and in 2018 wasn't even there yet
    14. Gradpad student accommodation buildings missing, plus some older tower blocks
    15. ASDA, Aldi and Boots retail area near the long billboard missing (just warehouses right now)
    16. Train wash towards Queenstown Rd station completely missing
    17. Can't see any buildings from the city of London. Should be able to see the London Eye too
    I could forgive a few of these things being wrong, but that's 17 things and I'm just picking the ones that jump out to me immediately. This is supposed to be the "next generation" train sim, but it's like your team didn't even actually go there and take photos. There's no excuse for this when your office is down the road and this is the busiest station in Europe. I also know you're trying to balance detail with performance, but I'm not asking for 1000s more polygons, I'm just asking for things that are wrong to be right, and for big omissions to be added.

    1a.jpg 1b.jpg 2a.jpg 2b.jpg
     
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  2. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    3a.jpg 3b.jpg 4a.jpg 4b.jpg .
     
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  3. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    . 5a.jpg 5b.jpg 6a.jpg 6b.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  4. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    7a.jpg 7b.jpg 8a.jpg 8b.jpg .
     
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  5. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    . 9a.jpg 9b.jpg 10a.jpg 10b.jpg
     
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  6. Cash

    Cash Active Member

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    My biggest issue is the missing PIS, it’s completely and utterly wrong.

    TrainSim-Matt Could you possibly forward this to the team? This really ruins the immersion for some players who have been here multiple times (like me!), obviously it’s probably not the team’s priority right now - but still something to note nonetheless :)
     
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Excellent and detailed thread. Even with my limited knowledge of Clapham Junction, I could immediately tell it looked off. It just looks bare in so many places.

    As much as I want these issues to be fixed, sadly I can’t see DTG doing anything about this at all.
     
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  8. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they probably won't, but if nothing is ever said, nothing will ever get fixed, so I'm just doing my duty to moan for the sake of the community and so they can't say "no one told us" or "everybody's happy, so let's build more mediocre scenery". Lol

     
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  9. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Frankly nearly all stations are an approximation.
    Don't get me started on Faversham.

    The trouble is compromises have to be made or only very high end machines will be able to run the game.
    Plenty of threads on this forum regarding stutters and low frame rates.
    Increase the detail and loading times, draw distance and ram usage start flying out the window.
    It'll be another ten years or more before we can have the above degree of accuracy.
    And the cost will have quadrupled.
     
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  10. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    What a detailed explanation! Probably shouldn't have checked it, no I can't un-see it, but quite strange how this very obvious things can get missed.
     
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  11. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Tbh it’s better not to read these threads as you can never unsee it.
    I’ve never been to Reigate and don’t particularly fancy going there but every time I see the station ….
     
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  12. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. The problem with this is that the scenery is pretty good to make it believable if you've never seen the real thing, but if you do, you can't unsee the unsimilarities anymore.

    For example, I've always thought that most of the LIRR is built pretty well and realistically in TSW. Then I've watched some cab rides and noticed how many inaccuracies there are. For example, there are much more foilage and trees around Garden City in real life than it is in TSW. While it looks alright and pretty believable in game, it looks completely different when you look at it side by side. Also the elevated section towards Nostrand Avenue, in TSW it's an elevated bridge with ballasted track, even though in real life it's all metal and wood, similar to the elevated tracks on the New York subway or the Chicago elevated trains.

    What's interesting is that they build these things by looking at real images and Google overlay, so I wonder how they get overlooked. I mean I can understand the elevated tracks on LIRR, as maybe it didn't worth it to create a new track asset just for a few miles of track. But why leave out the trees around Garden City, for example? It would be like a 10 minute job to place them there.
     
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  13. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I can understand comprises have to be made to keep performance good and they can't make custom assets for every single thing, but things like leaving out a train wash (which was there in TS1) or a signal box, or putting a tunnel in completely the wrong position just seem lazy to me. It seems like they were rushing to meet a deadline and they said "this is good enough, we have to ship it. Only a few people will notice". But even then, that doesn't explain a tunnel in completely the wrong place. I mean, somebody had to spend at least a few hours modelling that, based of what...their imagination?! I mean come on, please. Did they not think people would notice?
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The shops could be a licensing issue. Otherwise I see where the OP is coming from but equally it has to be a representation not a brick by brick reproduction. As a route builder myself in other sims I know only too well the compromise between what's there and what can be accomplished in the sim. You look at the area and have to think, will I see this from the cab at 60 MPH? Not necessarily defending DTG or the route builder as Reigate is a disgrace and certainly in more need of sorting out at this point than Clapham Junction along with the missing lineside fencing on the Quarry Line.
     
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  15. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I get your point, but with Clapham Junction, literally every service apart from the Gatwick Express stops there and it is a big spotting location, so a lot of people are going to see it at very slow speeds or stationary and possibly walking around it. I feel they did a much better job at Victoria (although there's some minor issues there too). With regards to shops, I understand perhaps not being able to put brand names on, but they could at least model the buildings. They could also do what they did with TS and make fake brand names with similar logos, so you get the feeling of it, but it doesn't violate trademarks.

    And yes, Reigate was worse. Now it's on par, but that's not saying much!
     
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  16. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    This is a great thread markhazeldine. Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison. I have often wanted to do detailed comparisons like these myself by don't really have the time or patience. My biggest bug bear is how lineside foliage if often too far away from the running lines on UK routes. They should be much closer making the line feel more enclosed and less open.

    What your comparison does show is that while TSW often looks 'right' if you don't know the real life equivalent; if you do it can be rather jarring. Some of the errors are so basic as well like the underpass being in the completely wrong place and platform fencing missing.
     
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  17. LodeStar

    LodeStar Member

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    In all honesty...every game has these kind of issues. You need to compromise it somewhere. If I go to MSFS and check out Amsterdam Schiphol Airport (which is a basic airport for the 'game') there is a lot to be wished (missed) for as well...you can buy an additional airport for abnormal prices. Even they have some mistakes in them.

    I think we really shouldn't be exaggerating stuff to much now. It should be an acceptable representation of the station as it is in real life...to my opinion they've done a decent job on that.
    While I see the clear differences, don't waste your pleasure of the game with really expecting a 1:1 real replication of the area you travel on every day in full detail.

    But that is just my two cents. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  18. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, its poor but I also see why DTG do it the way they do and compromises they make - the one thing this thread (well put together btw) really emphasizes to me is how flat and sterile they make their routes. This is best shown in the comparison shot with the maintenance yard/hanger. TSW looks plastic and polished.
     
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  19. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    Whilst we all would love total accuracy in sims, reality and hardware budgets get in the way. In all sims, devs try for a balance between accuracy and representation and since such issues are subjective, there is a wide range of reaction to specific representations. In sims such as X-Plane 11, there are thousands of freeware improvements, but maxed-out graphics will bring any machine, whatever its specs, to its knees and users are expected to adjust graphics to best match their expectations and the capability of their machine. What TSW lacks, partly thanks to consoles and partly to the inherent challenges in trainsimming, is the ability to plug in 3rd party add-ons (other than rolling stock), such as high detail stations, assets, etc. Modders are doing a great job, but their target, necessarily, is only around 35% of users and there are limits to what they can change.
     
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  20. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Got to have compromises for low end PCs and 8th Gen consoles. Its a representation not a detailed accurate scale model.

    Personally the routes the stations in game is usually recognisable as the relevant station in RL. and thats enough for me.
     
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  21. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I get that other games have similar challenges. I don't think MSFS is a completely apples to apples comparison though. Microsoft/Adobo have had to make something like 65000 airports around the world for the base game. There is no way in hell those are going to be that good. With London Commuter, DTG have made something like 22 stations and they are charging £24.99 just for the one route. Also, each station is way smaller than an airport, and your POV is much closer to it, so the detail needs to be fair higher. BUT, TBH, I'm not really talking about level of detail in this post. I'm also not talking about exaggerating anything. I'm talking about accuracy. Nothing I have pointed out is really asking for higher fidelity than is already there. I'm not asking for more polygons or higher resolution textures. I'm asking for the polygons to be in the right places. There is a difference and all it costs is for the most part is getting good source material and having an eye for detail/accuracy when you're modelling and placing objects in space. I don't think the list of things I pointed out would add significantly to the poly count (well not the things within the actual station). If adding a few custom buildings around the station would be too heavy on performance then a) God help them if they ever try and do PDL and b) they could use some more representative generic assets than the ones they did.
     
  22. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I thought DTG said they wouldn't be dumbing TSW down for consoles?

    And yes, it's a representation. A less than good one.
     
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  23. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Hasn’t it always been the way that routes would be a representation rather than photo realistic. People say that NTP is a good route but I wonder what the reaction would be if it was released today. I think there would be a lot of complaints.

    Our expectations are undoubtedly higher these days (and rightly so) but maybe we are being too picky over details.
     
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  24. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Currently it feels that there is a sizeable minority who are only here and only watch the preview streams to nit pick and find fault, if you listen to half of them TSW2 is the worst game in the history of video games. If its that bad why do they keep buying the new routes?

    Because of them it must be next to impossible for DTG to actually weed out the genuine concerns and issues.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well for me the gross inaccuracies on the forthcoming Class 150 are untenable and will lead to me not buying unless fixed.
    Clapham Junction, with no offence to the OP I don't really have an issue with. It's a huge station and some latitude can be granted. Reigate on the other hand...
    I actually find myself driving the German routes more and more..!
     
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  26. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Having viewed the OP’s analysis, it is quite evident that Clapham Junction in game is quite a bit different from its real life counterpart.

    Having considered the evidence, I’m not actually disappointed or miffed or frustrated. I guess I’m finally coming round to the fact that the community is not going to get everything it likes or wants (for whatever reason) out of the game.

    For example, since the 313 was announced, there were several requests to include the BR Blue livery on one of the units. I don’t think any community members argued against it. Given how long it took for the 313 to release, I was relatively certain to expect to see it. But nope. It never happened. Sadly, (again for whatever reason) the people making the decisions decided it wasn’t going to happen. Matt said he wanted it, I hope Matt fought for it, but ultimately nope. We didn’t get it. Maybe we will in the future, but who knows?

    When I see all of the options and things with TS, I really long to have that in TSW, but I think TSW is probably just far too complex and time consuming to work on, that these decisions have to be taken. I think this holds TSW back too much, but it is what it is and we kind of have to like it or lump it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  27. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I'm not familiar with Clapham Junction in real life, or pretty much any station in the game. However, seeing how many details have been wrong or missing, it does explain why I consider many of the UK stations pretty boring and similar. I think adding more detail and realism would add more variety between the stations, which would also increase the experience for those not familiar with the routes.

    For some reason, the German routes feel way more detailed and realistic than the UK routes, even though I'm not familiar with any of the routes in real life.
     
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  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to play the devil's advocate but I am personally happy that the BR Blue livery is not included, as I will probabily make one myself in the livery editor (that doesn't mean it's good it's not included - I am strictly talking about myself) if the spawn chance is not that high (if half the 313s I encounter on a trip down to Seaford will be BR Blue I'd rather not have it), and that's the other point, if they include that livery themselves I think they would have had to tweak the spawn rate, and I have no idea wether it's possible or not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  29. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    They were able to put the Trainbow livery on the one and only 395 to wear it, so I imagine they could do the same thing with the BR Blue livery. It was only on a single 313.
     
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  30. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Agree - for those of us who love anything in BR Blue this is a sad ommission, although is it down to licensing?

    I know for retro liveries DTG have licenses in place with DoT but not sure how it works for modern BR Blue liveries, do Southern own the license for the 313 BR Blue Retro livery (seeing as there are changes between this and the original) or do they use the livery under license from DoT?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's true. No idea why I didn't think of that.
     
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