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Class 101 Manual Train

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by subwayvaughn, Nov 6, 2020.

  1. subwayvaughn

    subwayvaughn Active Member

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    I first encountered the Class 101 in Trainz 2010 Engineer Edition and immediately thought "This is the most ugliest and retarded looking train ever, and I would not want to be caught riding on it even as a corpse." So for 10 years I've passed it up, not giving it the time or day in Trainz nor in TSW 2020 on the Manchester - Leeds Route. It wasn't until I watched several YouTube Vids of the Tees Valley line that sort of sparked an interest, mainly because I really like the Tees Valley route and I was craving the BR Class 31, which I currently have.
    Out of curiousity I gave the 101 a few go arounds.. The retro controls and switches, the wooden window frame of the cab, the engine sounds, shifting gears, the misaligned destinations, the way the train banks, the braking system.. I - FELL - IN - LOVE.
    As the saying goes: "Never judge a book by it's cover".. and I have so misjudged this train.

    Prior to the 101 I had no knowledge or any experience with manual (sim) trains of this type so now I have questions..
    In regards to the Class 101 on shifting: When I attempt to gear up the shift lever goes all the way to neutral instead of the next gear. This does not happen all the time, just on occasion. Is there something I've done incorrectly or is this a glitch?

    Is there any development consideration for more of these manual type trains in TSW2 after all the current roadmaps are obligated?

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
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  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There were around 30 classes of DMU's like this introduced in the 1950's and 60's. They have always been unrepresented in simulators and model railways.

    There are several which could/should be added to NTP, the class 108 would have been very common at the Manchester end of the line in particular, certainly the class 101 wouldn't be the only one to be seen, in fact around 1983 there could have been around five or six different classes which would be suitable for NTP. A class 108 would work on TVL too as Heaton had an allocation of them in 1989 when the route is set.

    Not sure about your problem with it going into neutral, it should only go into neutral if you go "up" a gear from fourth gear, which would be correct for coasting into a station below 15mph. I don't know if you are using keyboard controls and are maybe pressing the key too hard maybe, I haven't noticed any problems with it certainly.
     
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  3. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I've had this problem and thought it was just my old, slightly dodgy keyboard making windows think I was holding ctrl+A instead of just pressing it. Let go of A/D before you let go of Ctrl.
     
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  4. PeteW

    PeteW New Member

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    I find I sometimes accidentally put it into neutral unintentionally. Not sure if it is just user error or a slight glitch. I guess I see a similar glitch when trying to engage brakes using the keyboard. It sometimes takes a number of depressions of the correct key in order to register the initial level of braking.
     
  5. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It is simple, when changing gears, make sure you give the engine time to spin down enough, then change the gear and apply power again. If you apply power to soon, it will hang. Setting the throttle off and wait a while helps. If TSW2020 it was clearly visible in the HUD, in TSW2 it is less clear to see (I did not yet drive a lot with the call 101 in TSW2)..You can watch the gauge in the cab as well,it should be well in the low area befor you can apply power again.
     
  6. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    I always hated it too from the Train Simulator era, till I used it in TSW for the first time. Indeed it´s a really nice train to drive and it comes with many many small details and a lot of manual things you have to do to prepare it for departure. The driver window lock, the markers on the rear cab, the destination boards, the salon lights, etc. It also has a guard room. I have used it this evening indeed.

    In general all classics are amazing in TSW2, due to the high level of interaction you have with the vehicle itself and the attention to small details devs put on them. I didn´t know, for instance, that 101 had an external engine power on/off control on the side of the unit till I jumped into the depot to explore the whole vehicle.

    Regarding the gears issue is what Rudolf explained. It´s an engine with gears, like your car. You need engine RPM to be inside the yellow markers to make the shiftings properly. Let engine reach the right RPM before setting the next gears. Ingame tutorial explains it very well. Just pay attention to what they say there.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
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  7. subwayvaughn

    subwayvaughn Active Member

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    I understood the tutorials when I first played the 101. I was shifting a bit early when going up steep grades in order to maintain speed. It was my early anticipation which was occasionally causing the gear slip issue to arise. I've gotten much better with the 101 in general, especially the braking. This is now one of my favorite retro UK trains. I'm fixing to drive it from Manchester to Leeds right after this post. Thank you, Geloxo, and thank you all for the response.

    Regards,

    Vaughn
     
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  8. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    The 101s are great for Tees Valley and Trans Pennine. But of course there was other classes. Here is a photo of a couple of other classes which survive in preservation, these could be implemented into the game.

    DMUs.png
     
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  9. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am glad someone else has jumped on the DMU bandwagon I thought I was the only one!

    Certainly NTP would have seen both the 104 and the 108 in 1983. I would argue the class 108 would have been a more common sight than the class 101 actually as in 1983 there were more of them at Neville Hill, Longsight and Newton Heath than class 101's from my research. And in the class 101, 104 and 108 classes you had power trailer sets, power twin sets, three car sets and four car sets with a trailer brake second, a trailer second and two driver motor composite. So plenty of variety within each type too.

    It is totally unrealistic seeing two car class 101's on every local service on NTP, it simply wouldn't have happened. If they had provided just a class 45 covering all the express services and the freight services there would have been many complaints and much gnashing of teeth yet no-one seems bothered about the DMU's which were the backbone of local and rural services and the trains most people would have travelled on. There were as many variety of DMU's as there were of locomotives! As ever it seems to be a case of "well we need a DMU, lets throw in a class 101 as that will be good enough"!
     
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  10. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    Totally agree about your view on the loco side. There needed or needs to be another DMU.
    I know the 101s where the main unit from the late 90s till 2003 and that what leads me to believe why they used it. It was the same in the old Railworks/TS20xx too. Although there is a nice Class 105 now there too. For myself I was never really into locomotives, as most of the time the local line was mainly 104s and 108s with a rare apperance of a 101. That is until Pacers came out and slowly took over. Now it is a mixture of 150s, 156s and now 158s.

    The thing is I have a feeling that is DTG did release another 1st Gen DMU it will be a 121, bubble car. As with that being one of the last mainline classes to run. There are plenty of other units which could be used, and also I am sure there is plenty of scope to get all the required things to make them.

    All we can do though is wait and see.
     
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There are plenty of preserved DMU's around, certainly not a lack of reference material. A Bubble car would be likely as it would be a "popular" choice, doesn't make it useful.

    The 105 and 117 in TS1 came from IHH and I am not certain the 121 didn't either as I am sure I saw him show screenshots of one before he shut up shop. I wonder if his class 107 and 114 (labelled as a 118) will ever see the light of day again! He IHH hadn't modelled those would we be stuck with the class 101 there as well.
     
  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Just gave the 101 a try in Tees Valley (previously driven it in NTP). It's a lovely little train to drive and they seemed to have nailed the idiosyncratic performance. In MSTS and Classic DTG TS, it would let you change gears without idling the throttle, but nice touch in TSW2 if you try that, the revs go berserk! The only thing slightly off is the sound - I recall the MetCams having a lovely whining engine sound, as represented in TSW2 it's a bit truckish.

    I like the braking too, you really have to plan your stops and amazed I didn't hit the buffers at Darlington!

    As regards other DMU classes, so many to choose from but one of my favourites was the Class 120 Cross Country. Sadly none were preserved so unlikely to see one in TSW2 I guess. They were also AEC engine but had a different tone to the MetCams and well known for the rasping exhaust note on pullaway!
     
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  13. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    I remember seeing the 120s, never actually had the luck of travelling on them. My memories are more with 104, especially getting the Leeds service from Blackpool North and watching the tower disappear within a cloud of smoke from the 104 setting off.
     
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  14. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I think they went with the 101 because they were common all over the country pretty much so could get away with reusing it for many different routes (hence reducing dev time on said routes), whereas something like the 104 or 108, while more accurate, were less common and generally concentrated in certain areas.

    By the way, I'm not a fan of the 101 on NTP. I'd personally prefer it if they'd used a 141 pacer and brought the route forward to 1984, though maybe that's because I love a pacer ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  15. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Except the 141 would only have been used on part of the route... they didn't run to Manchester. They were under the auspices of WYPTE which operated the services Leeds to Marsden, while GMPTE did Manchester to Greenfield (and the two never really cooperated that well till much later). So the furthest West you would ever get one is Marsden! If they had done it in 1984 with a 141, you'd have got less than half the DMU services.

    More to the point in 1984 the 141 weren't as they are now, they had PBL esque air brakes (so basically similar like a 66, which really isn't too dissimilar handling to the 101) which I believe we're frequently found to be fairly woeful due to the design of the brake rigging. Similarly instead of the modern torque converter and fluid coupling, which the pacers received in the early 90s, (well only one of the 141s did) they had what is effectively an automatic version of the gearbox fitted to a Class 101.

    So really they'd handle not dissimilar to a 101, just be slightly more underpowered in comparison to a power twin, have an awful ride and be a pain to stop... and start given how unreliable they were :D So be careful what you wish for!
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  16. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would say the 108 was as wide spread as the class 101 to be honest, the only area which didn't see class 108's was East Anglia and 104's have been seen in many areas at various points apart from the south west and south Wales.

    The point is, for me, that presumably DTG want to create as realistic as experience as possible, especially for historic routes. They go to the trouble of supplying two locomotives for NTP, plus then an add-on pack containing another loco and a shunter. Yet, they supply just one DMU, which was not a dominant sight in the area, in fact Manchester do not seem to have had that many class 101's in the early 80's. If they had supplied just a class 45 or a 47 you can guarantee these pages would have been full of people complaining that it didn't represent what was seen at the time, well it is the same for DMU's, which are the more dominant feature of NTP, there are more DMU services than loco hauled services.

    I wouldn't expect them to have supplied two DMU's with the route really but they could supply one as DLC.
     
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  17. peterchambers

    peterchambers New Member

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    Subwayvaughn I agree with you on the 101 and its stable mates. The keybindings in my opinion are clumsy. In the cab you would have left hand on throttle and right on gear shift and it all worked naturally and smoothly. I have keybound page up and page down for gears up and down. It feels a lot more natural and avoids mistakes which I made with the original key binding.
     
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  18. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    That's a very good idea - thanks for sharing :) . In TS2021 it's E and Shift+E for the gears and took me a very long time to get used to Ctrl+A and Ctrl+D (Perhaps they could be better used as the door buttons when you decide let us use the keyboard to do it ;) ).

    Also, why does the break valve/lever/whatever stick to lap (you need to hold ; or ' for at least half a second before it'll do anything and that's very annoying)
     
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  19. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Certainly NTP could do with a few more DMU's, be it Class 100, Class 104, Class 105, Class 108, Class 110, Class 111, Class 120, Class 122, Class 123/4 or Class 128. But at the same time the reason for not getting another DMU probably boils down to the issue at Miles Platting and not wanting to exacerbate that issue. Would It be nice to have another unit, yes, will we get another one? Maybe some day?
     
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  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I hope you are right. However, they only made one DMU for TS1 the others came from IHH.
     
  21. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure the 105 wasn't an IHH model but happy to be proven wrong.
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Hi, it was, I had the IHH original. The only one I have a question mark over is the class 121 as he never released one but I am certain he showed some screenshots of one. It would have be "relatively" easy to make on out of a class 117 I imagine.
     
  23. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Both the 105 and 121 were new models by DTG as far as I can remember, I believe IHH did have a 105 but I don't think much was deemed salvageable, certainly the cab was entirely redone. The artwork for the 105 I believe was done by Reppo.
     
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  24. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    The first batch of Class 142s where also different to how most people expect them to sound. In the off topic post of Wigan Wallgate 1991 there is a Pacer leaving at around 35 seconds in. Have a listen, if you haven't already.

    Going back to the 101. I would believe that they chose the train for the route because of it being most common. The problem is that the original TSW had the wrong moquette, which is clearly seen in the picture below.

    530070_20201114183112_1.png
    The seats are from the Regional Railways era. Of course now in TSW2 they have the proper seats now.
     
  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I actually remember riding the 101's around the Tyneside network pre-Metro, as a "lad". Back then fairly certain the second class seats were a greenish moquette and the lighting was tungsten bulbs in rather nice little smoked glass shades on the roof.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Ah okay, I assumed they were just upgrade IHH ones. Thanks.
     
  27. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    Yes I travelled a lot on the 101s between Newcastle and Hexham in the early 60s and loved it when the leading car wasn’t 1st class and I could grab the seat on the right at the front.
    Blue moquette seats sadly meant a no go area.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    OT - I even have a vague recollection of my Dad taking me on one of the North Tyneside electrics from North Shields back into Newcastle after going to a football match @1966 - almost certain it was one of the older style units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Tyneside_electric_units rather than an EPB.
     
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  29. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    OT - There is certainly something about the older units as a whole. I was very lucky to have had a ride on the Altrincham to Crewe services prior to Metrolink, I never knew Class 304s, until then, and as a kid I would love to run down the carrage and dive into the bench seats at the end and bounce out.

    If DTG would like to redo the 105 for TSW2. I suggest getting sounds from the one at the East Lancs, As there is nothing that makes as much rattling than that class. Also be good for the WSR too, as I believe they used to have it before the ELR.
     
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  30. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone thing the brakes are much weaker in TSW2 compared to TSW2020? I don't have TSW2020 installed so can't check, but the brakes seem (to me) to be farcically weak sicne the 101 (both 101s) have come to TSW2.
     
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  31. PeteW

    PeteW New Member

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    OldVern Takes me back to trying to get that front right seat on the 101 on trips to Middlesbrough/Redcar on the Tees Valley Line (which I’m pretty sure it wasn’t called that back at the time!).
    Anyway, someone mentioned the sounds of the 101. I have to say, the sounds of the brakes and the accelerating/Idling noises really took me right back “a few years” to when I was a kid on that train. So they must be pretty good to rekindle those memories.
     
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  32. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have noticed that the brakes on the 101 are definitely weaker than they were in TSW 2020. On my first Leeds/Huddersfield run in TSW2 I braked normally but found myself in trouble as the train would not slow down as it used to. This was on dry rail going uphill! Previously, I'd never apply more than 10" but on several occasions I've had to give a full application just to stop before the platform ran out! I'm glad somebody else has noticed this so thanks for that. At least they're now aware of it if someone has read this.
     
  33. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily.
    Maybe the 2020 version was incorrect.
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I was about to say the same thing. I would expect the TSW version to be more accurate.
     
  35. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is a possibility.
     
  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about the brakes, if anything they feel a little strong to me and I was actually having to back off when coming to a stand.

    I was on a 108 on one occasion which made an emergency stop and that kind of threw everyone out of their seats, but normal service braking with tread brakes was a bit more timid.
     
  37. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    So in answer to the question have the brakes gotten worse, the answer is definitely no.

    In TSW1 I recorded the following stop times, in all cases the handle was brought quickly over to fully applied with the throttle in off and the gear in 4th.
    TVL 3 Car
    15mph: 8.66s
    30mph: 16.59s
    50mph: 28.50s
    65mph: 39.12s

    NTP 2 Car
    15mph: 8.00s
    30mph: 15.38s
    50mph: 28.03s
    65mph: 39.57s

    In TSW2 the following times were achieved, note the passenger load on the NPT 101 now affects weight

    TVL 3 Car
    15mph: 8.75s
    30mph: 15.84s
    50mph: 28.35s
    65mph: 39.43s

    NTP 2 Car (Empty/Loaded)
    15mph: 6.87s / 6.90s
    30mph: 13.37s / 14.78s
    50mph: 24.44s / 25.78s
    65mph: 34.57s / 36.41s

    So no, the brakes on the TVL one are quite literally identically and the NTP ones are actually notable better than they were. Likely the source of your issues is the NTP one is now significantly quicker to get up to speed as it no longer weighs as much as a 3 car set! Likely this has the effect of you going faster at your usual braking points than you otherwise would be. Acceleration times as follows

    TSW1/TSW2 TVL 3 Car set (discrepancies likely due to minor differences in changing gears etc)
    30mph: 38.8s / 38.5s
    50mph: 101s / 98s
    65mph: 171s/ 167s

    TSW1 NTP
    30mph: 39.0s
    50mph: 99s
    65mph: 167s

    TSW2 NTP (Empty/Loaded)
    30mph: 28.5s / 31.5s
    50mph: 68s / 76s
    65mph: 105s / 117s
     
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  38. subwayvaughn

    subwayvaughn Active Member

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    I’ve done exactly that and have much better results. Thank you, Peter.
     
  39. subwayvaughn

    subwayvaughn Active Member

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    The 104 has a more catchy appearance than the 101 IMO. I would definitely purchase that as an add on for Tees Valley or Leeds. Over all I would like to see more of the Northern Network lines on TSW2. I’m finding the freight just as equally enjoyable as the passenger service.
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The class 104 wouldn't be realistic for TVL in 1989 as they had long since gone from the north east, on that basis then it is likely DTG will include one! By 1989 the 104's were at Newton Heath, Chester and Reading/Old Oak Common. One would be suitable for the NTP, although I am not sure how often they crossed the Pennines to Leeds by then.

    Manchester to Buxton set around 1980 would be great to have as a basis to include a class 104 as they were used on that line before the class 108's started pushing them out.
     
  41. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    Not sure myself on the 104s doing the Manchester Leeds locals, but I do know that 104s where one of the main classes on the Blackpool North to Leeds services, throughout the 80s.

    The line to Buxton would make a good line, especially around the New Mills area.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Didn't some of the ones which worked to Blackpool have a white stripe? Neville Hill did have some 104 sets, not sure if they did as late as 1983. Darlington had them, but that closed in 1983. Certainly Newton Heath and I think Longsight had class 104 sets.

    The class 108 would be the most useful choice as from what I can see it was the most dominant DMU in that area. Longsight, Newton Heath and Neville Hill had them in abundance as did Allerton depot. Also Heaton had an allocation of them in 1989 as they supplied the sets for the Cumbrian Coast route, so I imagine one would could easily have been seen on the TVL.

    I just get the feeling that DTG would research the diesel loco's for a route to the nth degree, but when it comes to DMU's it is a case of lets throw in a class 101!

    I am sure if they asked opinions they might get "anoraks" like me advising them of the most suitable DMU's, they are my main area of interest and I think under represented and under valued.
     
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  43. hibiki

    hibiki Member

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    Yes you're correct. The ones with the white stripe had modified bogies, and known as the Blackpool Stripe. They mainly operated from Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North. I did see them a few times around Blackburn.

    The 108s would make a good choice. Like you said, they operated on the Cumbrian Coast. On top of that, they did make it into the 1990s. They seemed to be on the Chester line via Altrincham. In fact they were supposed to of outlasted the 101s, but for some reason they was taken out of service first.

    I agree about the view towards the locos, but as you said the chances of seeing something like a 108 or anything is more slim. I may of said it before, but if they did a DLC of just a couple of DMU classes. I would buy it. All they really need to do is make the models, most of the sounds are already there. Although with the 104, they may struggle with the rasping exhausts.

    I just hope DTG can see that we do need more of them, like with 2nd generation. Just a 166 is not much use, as they have never been up north AFAIK.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You are right about the 108's I remember Regional Railways had selected them to be refurbished for the retained fleet of "heritage units" but I think they had more corrosion problems than the class 101's, it was something like that.

    AP have a good rasping exhaust set for the class 117/121 in their DMU sound pack for TS1 so it could be done.

    Maybe we could set up a class 108 crown funded page, I see there is a GWR 47xx being made for TS1 paid for by donations!

    I suspect we will see more 2nd generation units when suitable routes are released, there are plenty of those in TS1.
     
  45. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I remember wedging onto a "striped" 104 to get from Preston to Blackpool North in the early 80's. They also appeared from time to time (along with the 120's) on Birmingham to Norwich services, before they went over to Class 31 loco haulage.
     
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