I’m trying to figure out how to avoid getting the emergency brakes application when rolling into Reading, occurring about halfway down the platform. I figured it had something to do with the DSD or AWS system triggering the emergency brakes, or coming in too fast, but I don’t get a warning beep or sound immediately prior, nor am I going faster than 15-25 mph. What am I doing wrong?
Cant remember the exact service, but im sure there is one service ( morning dometime), when the aws, dsd is active, it falsely applies the beakes, sure its on plaform 9
It’s a TPWS brake demand. Have a look at the red Brake Demand light on the TPWS panel, you’ll see it flashing (or steady if you’ve acknowledged the brake demand via AWS button). It’s the TPWS loops about halfway on platform 9 which triggers it. It’s a fault that the developers haven’t rectified as no matter what speed you are doing- even if it’s a few mph- you will get a brake demand and you get it on all traction (Class 66, HST, turbo). It’s a shame after all these years, it still hasn’t been rectified. And the opposite extreme is the TPWS loops on the approach to the buffer stops at Paddington. It should trigger a brake demand if you go over time >10mph but it doesn’t as I’ve tested going over them at 15+mph. For future, if you’re going into platform 9 at Reading then just isolate AWS/TPWS as you go past the final signal going into Reading.
TPWS standard for Train Protection and Warning System. Basically if you get a warning and fail to acknowledge it then this system kicks in and performs an emergency brake application, stopping the train I believe the TPWS is down and to the right from the normal front view
Good idea, but sadly not correct. You've described AWS there. TPWS is a automatic system that is operated by track based equipment configured to trigger when certain criteria are met. On the Class 66 in this game, you need to turn off the 24V fuse in the fuse box (to disable/ enable AWS) on the panel in Cab #1, I've never had the TPWS take me out on GWE so not sure if it's attached to this and I've driven that loco a lot.
OK, got it. Same thing as a Sifa Zwansbremsung. But I take it this red light is not anywhere I'd normally be looking? But that does not explain why I got scrammed creeping into Reading (no, the AWS was NOT going off).
It's next to the datacord. You can hit train stop override as entering Reading if you want to not disable the safety systems.
In the Class 66 fuse box, the "24 volt supply fuse" is marked AWS/TPWS: apparently leaving it open de-activates both systems together. (There is also a DSD isolation switch for all that DSD matters.)
Yes TPWS is what gets you in those incidents. But it can also be employed to stop the train in the event of a SPAD. Speeding into a permanent speed restriction too fast, Chelmsford has one on the down mainline which is set differently for freight and passenger. TPWS can also be deployed to protect level crossings etc.
Thanks. Boy that isn't in my normal field of view: the datacord is ornamental, and the computer is only useful for dumping gravel.
Actually this computer is good for knowing how the engine is actually behaving and whether you've got issues. They've modelled it well to be honest. That placement is so that it's in the drivers eye line in real life, to see if they've activated the system. Some of the 66s I drive have it down by the fan heater behind the centre pedestal.
The train stop override should prevent the brake demand in all traction that is core on GWE going in to P9, just got to remember to use it
Should be 60 seconds if not activated (giving you time to approach something) and if it is activated the yellow square TSO(Train stop override) light will go out.
TPWS is activated without any alarms going off, it's a faulty grid. I'm pretty sure DTG have left it like that to add a bit of spice to the run.
To be pedantic, A Ruscoe is partially correct because failing to cancel AWS in the allotted time (approx 2.5-3 seconds depending on traction), will result in an emergency brake application via TPWS hence why you’ll still get a brake demand lit up on the TPWS panel (or the yellow AWS light will be lit up on an advanced TPWS panel). On some traction, the AWS and TPWS systems are connected which is why if you are isolating the AWS, you will also be isolating the TPWS and vice versa. Being pedantic still, the original function of TPWS is not to prevents SPADs but to prevent accidents by ensuring the train stops before a conflicting point such as a junction. And this is still the definition today. but in the modern day, I would argue that the definition has changed somewhat because in certain locations, TPWS does prevent SPADs from happening. If you have a look at some big, major stations, you couldn’t SPAD if you wanted too* because each signal/platform is littered with OSS/TPWS+ grids so you’re essentially monitored from much earlier on and the trigger speed is low due to the high risk of an accident if SPAD’d. The speed at which TPWS is set to be effective is 75mph which is usually good enough. Of course, on GWR, some traction are fitted with Automatic Train Protection (ATP) which is a superior system as it monitors your speed much earlier on than TPWS. In order to run at speeds higher than 110mph on the GWML, you need ATP. The only exception to this is between Reading and Didcot Parkway where Cross Country 220s/221s may run higher because there are lots of TPWS+ grids. This is as per sectional appendix. This is also partially the reason why any open access operator like the one a couple years that wanted to run a service between London-Cardiff using Class 91s/Mk4s would be a non-starter because they would be limited to 110mph max without ATP. On passenger trains, pressing the TPWS override button lasts for a maximum of 20 seconds (or 60 seconds on freight) or until you’ve past an active TSS loop. I.e. if you plan to go through two active TSS loops in 20 seconds/60 seconds, you would have to press the override button again when going past the second active TSS loop even if 20/60 seconds hasn’t elapsed. Also with regard to Overspeed loops, I believe Freight locomotives trigger them at a lower speed (2/3 of a passenger train?) as they have a longer brake distances but Bryer can correct me if I’m wrong. *well you could, if you complied with the last set of Overspeed sensor grids and then went past the signal but you know what I mean TSS: Train Stop System- the TPWS grids by the stop signal. The other type of TPWS grids are Overspeed System (OSS) which are found on approach to stop signals/permanent speed restrictions/buffer stops.
On a slightly related topic, I can’t remember if failing to acknowledge DSD will cause a brake application via the TPWS as well or if it’s a different system? Also, I wonder if the flying banana HST (New Measurement Train) has ATP because I’m sure that does 125mph on the GWML. Or perhaps it’s got a derogation from Network Rail to run at higher speeds than 110mph? Perhaps Bryer if you know the answer to the above, it would be appreciated.
Hi Olaf, been a while. DSD doesn't cause a TPWS demand, but will apply a "emergency brake application" and kill any power being applied. Not sure on the ATP on the NR flying banana, if I see it at Euston tonight I'll ask the driver.
Out of curiosity, then, what is the TPWS speed limit at Reading No. 9? I'd still like to comply even if I have pressed the Get Out Of Limits Free button. In a way, this is more subtly tricky than PzB: with PzB you generally know what you are supposed to do, what you just did wrong, and the system will loudly announce that you have sinned- whereas here, there is no speed limit indicated anywhere, and the system simply knocks you on the head without comment.
It depends on the signal aspect at the end of the platform. I've found the offending TPWS grid at it relates to the bi directional working. I'm guessing it's a deliberate fault from DTG to recreate real life. TPWS override did stop it happening.
Thanks a lot buddy. Yeah, I haven’t been on TSW much and still haven’t got around to getting TSW 2. Since TSW 2 was the main focus on threads during the summer, I haven’t been on the forums much either. Drivers generally don’t know what speed will trigger the TPWS grids. The only time we do is when someone makes a mistake and triggers them. But as a general rule for UK routes including GWE, the working instructions for most passenger companies are as follows: 1. No more than 20mph, 200 metres away from the red signal. Generally speaking, you can use the AWS magnet as a guide as that is usually 200m away from the signal. (But not always!) Some passenger companies make a rule of 15mph instead of 20mph. If you extrapolate this, you can do 30mph at the grids as the grids are usually 300m away from the red signal. 2. In wet/slippery conditions, do 10mph 200 metres away from the red signal. I suspect with freight, they would only do 10mph or less even in normal conditions but Bryer can confirm this. 3. Stop no closer than one coach length from the red signal unless you are required to (like at Reading, you’d obviously stop at the stop board which is a lot closer than one coach length but talking generally with signals not at stations). Some passenger companies say to stop no closer half a coach length instead of one coach length. 4. With regards to buffer stop platforms, do no more than 10 mph at the grids (obviously otherwise you’ll trigger the grids) and do no more than 5mph one coach length from the buffer stops. Some passenger companies may say 8mph instead of 10mph at the grids and some companies may have a maximum speed at the entrance to a buffer stop platform such as 15mph. A good idea where to stop the train is once the buffer stops have just gone out of view. When it comes to coming into buffer stop stations or station with a red signal at the end of the platform, you should brake nice and gentle and shouldn’t have to use anymore than step 1 on a Class 166, for example. With other stations where you can come into the station faster, a mixture of step 1 and 2 will suffice (on a class 166). Interestingly, I believe in theory there is a sign described in the rulebook which is placed next to a set of grids with the speed at which they are triggered at. But I have never seen this in practice. I think you have too much faith in DTG In all seriousness, bi directional working should never be able to cause a TPWS activation because in order to get a brake demand caused by the second loop, you have to go through the first loop. As suggested by the name of the first loop- “arming” loop- it arms the TWPS system on the train by setting a countdown and it’s the second loop- “trigger” loop- which causes the brake demand. So if you go in the opposite direction such as in bidirectional working, I.e. second loop then first loop, no brake demand should result because the TPWS isn’t armed. This is also the reason why when you do a wrong direction move, there’s no need to (temp) isolate the TPWS. [Of course,you know this but for the benefit of others]
This is GT2 video of Paddington to Reading on a HST. Watch the final 2 minutes, his final approach is almost textbook. 30mph into the platform, doing 20mph at the AWS magnet and a nice cautious approach throughout. Nice and gentle braking. A happy driver manager If a driver manager does a download of the train data recorder they would check to see that you did no more than 20mph at the magnet. In fact, I *think* a download will automatically flag up if you did more than 20mph. The reason why they may do a download is if you’ve had an incident (like a SPAD) but also they do randomly do downloads as part of regular assessments. If you want to a record your station stops or anything else, I’d be happy to give you advice and feedback.
What about the weird circumstance which apparently only exists in DTG-world, where you are bringing a freight in to a passenger platform? (Note that Reading 9 is not a buffer-stop but a through route)
Some TPWS locations do have warnings of the speeds, as they are within the braking zone. I know of 3. 1st one is at Chelmsford on the down main, which reads as TPWS 80. 2nd and 3rd ones are on the London, Tilbury, Southend Railway near Tilbury station to warn you they are set at 50 or 55 mph (been a while since I've been down there).
That’s actually not just in the DTG world, that’s in real life too. You’ll notice that at Reading station, there are no platform-avoiding lines so freight will have to go through a platform. And Freightliner have a train crew depot there too so some freight trains will stop so drivers can changeover. The only thing though is that freight will usually go on the slow lines (platforms 12-15) not the fast lines (platforms 7-11). In the old station layout, there used to be a through road (no platform) as well as a buffer end platform. But that all changed in 2014.
Thank, Olaf; I didn't realize they did that. But the question remains: what is the speed limit for a freight in those circumstances? 2000 tons doesn't brake nice and easy like a 166 will.
The FOC I work for, we are expected to be doing 10mph or less at the AWS for a red signal, stopping a loco length off the signal if possible. Only place I can't stop a loco length off the signal is Witham as the loop only just fits the train in.
j Bryer can confirm but as I said earlier, I suspect freight will do no more than 10mph at the AWS magnet so perhaps hit the start of the platform at no more than 15mph.
Give me a bit more detail of this and I'll test. I need to service ID and the loco type. I tested earlier on stream and one of TPWS grids in Platform 9 is faulty and will trigger and Brake Demand no matter how slow you're going.
4V38, Dagenham Dock to Didcot Yard, departs Acton at 1557. Class 166, 20 containers. (Also, why would a train to Didcot stop and change crews just 20 miles out?)
Apologies, I should have been more clear. In TSW, the freight trains are run by DB Cargo and their depot is at Didcot. There is another freight company called Freightliner which isn’t in the game and their depot is at Reading. DB Cargo also has a depot at Acton. There are other freight companies too: Direct Rail Services (DRS), Gbrf, Colas Rail but only DB Cargo is featured in the game. Here is a link to all freight services that go through Reading today: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1-27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt If they are greyed out, that means it’s non-stop. If it is in black, it is due to to stop at Reading. You will seem some say DB cargo and some will say Freighliner (or FLHH which stands for Freighliner heavy haul). You will notice that most that stop are Freightliner as they will have a crew changeover. But the DB cargos are generally non stop as they will have or had a changeover at Didcot.
Normally Reading is a good end point for a drivers route knowledge, or as a relieving point as it's major station and junction. The freight train could take 4 hours to go that 20 miles, which would be too long in the seat for a driver.
This is a Freightliner Class 66. I’m not sure if you’re from the US but if you are and the livery looks familiar it’s because Freighliner are a subsidiary of Genesse and Wyoming in the US. I believe a Freightliner driver at Reading go as far West as Westbury/Bristol, as far as East as Wembley and to the South West to Eastleigh and possibly as far North as Nuneaton/Lawley street (Birmingham).
That’s because it’s a bug. It isn’t working as it should on this platform. I thought that’s what this thread was about, the fact that it is a bug
Never had that service drop a brake on me going into Reading. Pretty sure it goes through Platform 8 and that's not affected by the bug on the TPWS. I will test that service again as it's one of the better Class 66 services in the game.
