A debate page about the Class 745s/755s Stadler flirt introduction into Britian, feel free to discuss if they are a solid replacement or not below.
I say they are absolutely rancid as almost every new unit is these days, but that’s just the opinion of someone who still wants to be thundering down the western region on mk1s behind a western.
Having said that their nowhere near as bad as anything that CAF has built, as many say, Cheap As F**k which is the feeling you get when you go over any joint on their stuff.
I think they are terrible looking things, and actually had this discussion with someone earlier, that I prefer the look of the sprinters to these things and I don't think the Sprinters are nice looking trains either. I honestly don't know what is going on with the door arrangements with only one door on each coach which is rather strange. At least the ones in the far East have the decency to have yellow fronts, unlike their Welsh siblings which look even worse with red on the front.
Having never been anywhere near one in my life, I can say that I love them! They look epic! Difficult to say more when you've never seen one in real life...
The one thing about them is when their thrashing they actually sound decent, they sound a bit like a clayton.
Ah, interesting, must admit never heard a Clayton, or at least can't think what they sound like if I have. I have heard these units are about reliable as Claytons were though!
Living in south Wales I can confirm they are not the most reliable, we were better off with the 769s.
Well usually when a forgein design comes overseas its usually classed as "ugly" but I've had many friends who have had the stadler flirts grow on them where in the first place they hated them
With my experience with them they ain't broken down(apart from their teething issues) and I ride them very often, have been since their introduction.
So you have never been on a flirt then? From my experience on other apps people will relentlessly milk old stock as if it lasts forever. I'd much rather be in a slick, modern EMU than a non air-conditioned coach
It's usually because they are ugly, if we are totally honest, as more often than not it has to be squashed down to fit on our network. Saying that even the European FLIRT things look terrible.
How exactly would that work? The castle sets work on unelectrified seaside lines. Are you suggesting a 4 car mk3 set running down the Clacton branches? Of which the coaches were corroded anyway. And they couldn't make it past 2020 due to wheelchair accessibility issues, something the Flirts have no problem with
I mean Like 90+ 4 Mk3 ( refurbed for wheelchair accessibility) + DVT. They could run on the Wherry Lines
Yes, it is a matter of opinion, essentially what I said when you first started arguing against me! Would love them to have kept the 90s, one small issue is that East Anglia, including Wherry Lines, don't have many wires. Many places still have gas lit street lamps!
I wasn't arguing, I was debating. I just don't see how anyone can like a 153 or a 156 over a modernised train with everything a 153 doesn't have, people have spoken to locals where the new trains have come in and they said they couldn't have been more grateful for the new trains. Check out Geoff Marshalls video for a better explanation
Really? I am glad you are here to state the obvious. I am very aware of how things work in the rail industry, but who wouldn't love the 90s and Mk3s to still be about. Ah right ok, whatever you say. I like the Sprinters compared to the FLIRTs because, frankly, these units just look terrible to my eyes and seem to have a strange layout as well. I am sure many locals like them and I am sure many locals dislike them as well, though frankly I am sure most don't care as long as the train turns up, which these have apparently had a tendency not to. I excitedly await your next argument debate I mean.
Aren't the Flirts known as "Basils" due to the high failure rate (as in Basil Fawlty). With apologies to younger members who may not have heard of the genius 70's classic comedy series, Fawlty Towers!
When you say most don't care your quite wrong. For the 720s which I personally dislike there was a poll of some sort asking whether the new train should have first class or more seats instead of first class.. and the results was the latter so people clearly do have some care depending on when it comes to how a train should be on the interior.
In their introduction like most trains they did fail quite a bit but after a around a year of service they haven't failed no where near as commonly as they did, its almost unheard of in my area
If you are so aware of what happens in the rail industry then why are you suggesting a Electric train be hauled by A DIESEL loco up and down unelectrified lines.. when we already have bi model trains perfect for this, your only reasoning for saying such a thing is for purely nostalgic reasons, the railways are for passengers not enthusiasts
Yes, I have heard this one, there were also another nickname I liked when I heard it but I can't recall it. Really bugging me but it just won't come to my head. I can't seem to find that anywhere these days, though am not entirely surprised! I said many not most. I rather like the 720s for what they do, what about them don't you like? Ok but does the poll include people who saw the poll, said balls to it and chucked it in the bin? I would assume not. Honestly the vast majority of passengers don't care what train they get on as long as there is one there to get on. Perhaps you may want to reread my posts and find a different argument, as you'll be searching forever to find where I said that. I just said it would be nice if GA still had 90s and Mk3s, never mentioned owt about them being towed around by diesels. I must say this is my favourite thread for quite a while, it seems to be the only place where I can feel I am winning arguments debates as I have no chance with the Mrs.
The mk3s and 90s were outdated, whether you want them back or not, did you seriously expect them to be in service past 2020? I'm sorry are you one of them people who will defend old stock to the last stand because hmm what's the word Blinded By Nostalga that's the one.
The 720s have terrible 3+2 seating that you can barely walk through, for a dense communter train that's not something to be proud of.. on the other hand the flirts have spacious 2+2 seating which is helped by the fantastic interior, whilst the seat comfort is relatively the same on 720s and flirts, the overall experience is much better in the flirts. As for my final question if you like the 720s how do you not like the flirts? And don't go and say because they look different or they replaced "Superior stock" because the 720s replaced stock better than the 90s!
No I didn't expect them to be, doesn't mean I would love it if they were. I am not one of those people who will defend old stock to the last stand at all and there are various examples of this. Of course I have more nostalgia for old stock but doesn't mean I'll defend it's looks just for that, I just genuinely rate the 90s and Mk3s higher than the 755s/745s. They have 3+2 seating, yes, but it means they have more seats which is more important for a train on a busy commuter line than space. I prefer the looks of the 720s to the FLIRTs and as modern trains go they look acceptable, that is the reason I prefer them. Nothing more nothing less.
So my point is proven then, by your standards the looks of a train deems its acceptability in service, you haven't gone on about anything else but the looks. Have you ever been in the flirts or are you a northerner?
Hold on, you have a point you were trying to prove? No not at all, there are many other factors involved in their acceptability in service and I mention that in my post. You seem to be mixing my opinions up, as I like the 720s because of how they look, I also think the are rather suitable for the services they provide. Two different things. I have been on the FLIRTs, though I am not from Anglia luckily (I'm from the nice part of the East with fields, hills. coast and nice towns) but this has nothing to do with what I originally said about them anyway. All I said were they were ugly things and you didn't like me saying that. If you would like my opinion on any other part of them feel free to ask and I'll share it, I don't think you'll like it though.
The 720s operate slower services (obviously) hence why you say they are better for what they operate because you don't need to be on them for long, but this isn't a chat about the 720s so anyways. I didn't take offence to you saying that they were ugly, I just didn't understand your perception of it all. Now please tell me your indepth thoughts on the interior of the flirts, that's what this page is about after all
I weren't the one who brought up the 720s! What you mean is you didn't like the fact that I didn't like them, that seems to be the impression I am getting. Before I start on the FLIRTs I just want to make it clear that these are my own opinions of them based solely on what I know and experienced. Personally the big issue has already been mentioned and that is their reliability, still not particularly great from what people I know have said. I also know that they are not particularly popular with various staff I know, which is never great. I must admit I have never had anything to do with regional rail services so can't really say owt about the suitability of them for the lines they serve as I don't really know the requirements of them. The 745s however is what really frustrates me as London to Norwich is a route which is easily and rightly classed as an Intercity route, however the 745s are not Intercity trains. If these turned up at my TOC I would be incredibly unhappy as frankly they feel like a commuter train not at all suited for an Intercity service. They also would not work as commuter trains because the single door arrangement would damage dwell times, in fact I reckon this is even an issue on the IC runs.
I see we have yet another someone who likes arguing for the sake of it. Why does this always happen on weekends? It's like some sort of curse.
Sure, I preferred the Class 90 and Mk 3 sets but I don't think the FLIRTs are a step in the wrong direction. A lot better than the IETs imo. And, if nothing else, the Class 745 and 755s are a lot more accessible than their predecessors, which is important.
They're only more accessible because they had to be built that way, the same as every other new passenger train.
I had the fun of travelling to Stansted via them, and to be honest compared to other "new" trains*, these are actually nice trains (i mean then having Ryanair - kind of makes them even better! ). I've only been on the Stansted ones but I'm assuming they are pretty much the same as the ones to Norwich (of course the latter having first class). * = I travelled on a transpennine express 802 and hated it, even though it was for such as short journey
They're objectively leaps and bounds ahead of Sprinters. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by nostalgia. And no, I'm not the sort of person who always loves modern trains and hates old ones. I've already expressed my distaste for the 80x family on these forums before, and likewise for example I think the 197s are a downgrade from the 175s. I cannot imagine anyone riding a FLIRT unit, then transferring to a 153 with it's cramped, nonexistent legroom and loud engine noise and genuinely believe that the latter is a better experience.
FLIRTs are the best new rolling stock IMO as they're quiet, spacious and comfortable (although nothing compared to the mk3s) and way better than the IETs and Civities. They also have little ramps that stick out to bridge the gap between the train and the platform so it is easy for passengers to board which means they have actual level boarding as there is no step down (unlike almost all other British rolling stock). The one door arrangement is okay on InterCity services but there really should be two per carriage on the 755s like their Welsh cousins. Yes they are a lot more expensive but you get what you pay for with the build and ride quality. Only complaint that not enough were ordered especially for Wales! Should have been more FLIRTS than those crap Civities for TfW and more 745s for GA as they are three diagrams which are 720/755 due to a lack of 745s.
