Clinchfield F7 Safety Systems?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    1,611
    Likes Received:
    4,352
    Is there an alerter in the F7 cab? There's a "safety pedal" on the floor, but I haven't found anything else, no fuses or other buttons related to safety systems. Was there anything in these locos?
     
  2. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    117
  3. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    1,326
    Not really. As far as I can tell, the deadmans pedal is pretty much the only luxury feature you got on these F7's.
    You could also just go "beep beep beep" every 30 seconds if that'll make you feel any safer ;)
     
    • Like Like x 9
  4. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    2,634
    These locomotives were back in the era before the explosion of safety systems.... during that era you could buy a ladder that didn’t have 50 safety stickers telling you what not to do....
     
    • Like Like x 7
  5. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2019
    Messages:
    3,064
    Likes Received:
    3,485
    It is interactive / animated - PC [SHIFT][ENTER] - but I think, not functionable :)
     
  6. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    449
    The 'deadman' switch worked by needing for the engineer to maintain pressure on it. If he took his foot off for a period of time, like 10 - 15 seconds I seem to remember, the brakes would set, ie 'deadman'.
     
  7. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    821
    Wouldn't it not need to be just the other way around? If I die while driving a train my dead legs still put pressure on the pedal. So it's essential to lift your feet once in while? Just guessing, maybe I didn't understand :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    471
    Likes Received:
    161
    Actually, there were quite a few accident cause by this system, as it was very easy to fool, most engineer would put something like a heavy lunchbox or something like it, to avoid having to place their foot on the pedal for long stretch of time, and naturally falling asleep, and I think you can imagine the rest
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,334
    Likes Received:
    2,858
    Matt said yesterday there was no alerter for the F7
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  10. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    2,634
    Only thing I heard Matt talk about was the Deadman's Pedal - which he showed and demonstrated - but stated it does nothing. Never heard him talk about any other form of safety systems.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,334
    Likes Received:
    2,858
    Just edited my response meant to be no alerter in the F7
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    6,054
    Likes Received:
    8,646
    It was built in 1948. Safety systems? Back when cars didn't have seat belts, doctors endorsed cigarette brands, and small children were encouraged to run with scissors?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2019
    Messages:
    3,064
    Likes Received:
    3,485
    Safety systems? Just imagine collecting all that scattered coal with a dustpan as a punishment. Such a threat is enough.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    5,907
    I mean, it's documented that Santa Fe engineers usually ran their F7s as high as 100mph, and I doubt they had any real saftey equipment in cab.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2020
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    207
    Can’t believe that the F7s have been around since the late 40s and they had headlights years before we thought about installing them to our locos.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    1,611
    Likes Received:
    4,352
    Ok... now I am going to use this thread to ask about the second loco... that one HAS the alerter, the button is there, the Shift+Enter activates warning devices... but where's the fuse for this one?
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    6,054
    Likes Received:
    8,646
    May not be one. The "fuse" in the SPG version is fictional: in reality, the alerter can't be turned off.
     
  18. dr1980

    dr1980 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    35
    Yup, that’s exactly why modern locos don’t use the deadman pedal system. I think such a system contributed to the deadly rail collision in Hinton, Alberta IIRC.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    471
    Likes Received:
    161
    That is correct
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Blu

    Blu Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2021
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    91
    If you mean the UK. We operated differently to the US. Our railways were fenced off and the assumption nobody would trespass knowing the dangers. So the train crew needing to see the line ahead wasn't such an issue, as by the 1940s we had block signalling and as long as the driver knew the route and obeyed the signals that was it.

    Mind you Some National Coal Board Engines from the early 1950s were fitted with large electric spotlights In the North East of England Look at RSH No.7763 https://preservedbritishsteamlocomo...son-hawthorn-works-no-7763-ncb-no-38-0-6-0st/

    With regard locomotive tech. The USA was years ahead of the UK with regards steam and Diesel traction in the 1930s onwards. Its more of a political issue as to why Britain's railways suffered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  21. Blu

    Blu Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2021
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    91
    Also in the UK. there is many stories of train crew putting their bags on the pedal in the BR days. It was common knowledge if someone was to become unconscious at the controls they would actually put pressure on the said safety device. Eventually and slowly a system called AWS (Automatic Warning System) was introduced which would address the incapacitated driver.

    However the AWS wasn't failsafe to human intervention. Once the driver cleared a warning it overrode the system allowing the train to proceed. This was a particular issue in the South East of England on the commuter routes into London where drivers would be constantly under caution signals in rush hour and would get used to cancelling the warning without checking the next aspect, assuming it would be another caution.

    It wasn't until TPWS that this was addressed. even then that is open to human intervention, as it can be isolated by the driver, but questions will be asked if the seal has been broken. (unless you work for a company who allows it!).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2020
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    207
    Yet, in this day and age, America’s railroads have gone downhill over the years. They only have the alerter as a main safety system, whereas Europe has several safety systems. They just started building a high speed line, whereas again, Europe has had high speed trains and lines since the late 70s and 80s.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Blu

    Blu Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2021
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    91
    Yes and accidents still happen. No matter where we are from and what we do. accidents will happen. I think the USA has had High speed lines on the east coast for a few years now. Not like Europe etc but quite good for the country. The USA is missing a trick. They have the vast space to build a high speed network, unlike the UK where its pointless.
     
  24. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    5,907
    The Metroliner was designed as a response to the Japanese 0 Series Shinkansen as part of the "High Speed Ground Transportation Act of 1965", with a max speed of around 125 to 150, but nothing else came of it, and no real higher speed trains were made till Amtrak débuted the Acela in 2000. (After testing an ICE 1 and X2000 in the 90's).
    Southbound_Amtrak_Metroliner_with_cab_car_880_at_Bowie,_December_1980.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    6,054
    Likes Received:
    8,646
    We have no need of one. The only reason they are being built now is because politicians are susceptible to lobbyists. Besides, the private railroads are freight railroads- they unloaded the money-losing passenger business onto the taxpayer in 1971.

    Our geography is different; we just are not so densely populated. The equivalent of HS2, Birmingham-London, in US demographic terms would be, say, New York-Chicago: a distance of 800 miles. Airplane distance.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Blu

    Blu Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2021
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    91
    I think the US would be perfect. Long distances between cities, sparsely populated. You have the space to build new lines. and the capital to do it on your way to carbon zero :) I find building a 140+mph railway (HS2) a waste of money as we are such a small Island. I think 125mph is sufficient. I flew recently with Easy Jet from my local airport to Stansted. Classed as London but far from it. By the time you took the time it took to get to my local airport 40 mins by public transport (20mins by private car), had to wait 2 hours due to security post 9/11, wheels up to wheels down 30 mins then a 40 min journey into Central London. I could have caught the Flying Scotsman and arrived in London before the flight (which left later). Rail journey averaged 90mph but top speed 125mph with one stop at York. For a 285 mile Journey on what is technically the route as built in the Victorian era albeit modernised. If the US built totally new highspeed lines in excess of 125 connecting cities inter state and beyond you would be laughing.
     
  27. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2020
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    207
    China has got a vast high speed network and they didn’t let geographic issues stop them, no they built a high speed rail network that is considered best in the world. Apparently. The problem that is making high speed rail networks in the US is well, mainly airports and the American people’s love of cars. Even though there seems to be growing demand for high speed rail like California and Las Vegas. I mean we have machinery that can dig through a side of a mountain and make a tunnel.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    5,907
    Yet they decide to start building it between 2 of the LEAST desirable cities in the state, no one is gonna ride it from Bakersfield to Merced, if they even get the damned thing done.....
     
  29. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    1,832
    Likes Received:
    2,922
    Holy smokes, 100mph? Truly were different times then :D
     
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    6,054
    Likes Received:
    8,646
    Nobody, at least in America, is going to ride a train for 8 hours when they could fly there in two. Therein lies the problem with high-speed rail: it only works in the zone between driving and flying, and that zone has to have adequate population density to provide a ridership base, or it isn't financially viable.

    "I think the US would be perfect. Long distances between cities, sparsely populated." The sparsely populated bit is half the problem. Where are the passengers? And the other half of the problem is the long distances between cities- so long, that the speed advantage of air comes to the fore. No train in the foreseeable future is going to get you there at 600 mph. Except in the Northeast Corridor, we don't have closely-spaced major cities and dense population in between.

    Yes, going 285 miles by train you could outpace the total time of air travel (thanks to post-9/11 security theatre)- but it's only 285 miles. It's been said that the difference between Britons and Americans is that Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Brits think 100 miles is a long way. 285 miles is roughly the distance from here to New York- a driving trip. If I'm really in a hurry, I'll fly. If my wife comes, we'll definitely drive, because it costs no more for two than one (whereas rail or air would both cost double).
     
  31. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2020
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    306
    And yet the US Greyhound bus network carries 16 million passengers a year, which would only go up if the rail network was there. I think the US will have to adopt long distance high speed travel if they want to become as carbon neutral as the rest of the world
     
  32. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,097
    Likes Received:
    2,634
    There are many areas where high speed rail would be more convenient than flying or driving here in the US. Take the Houston, Dallas, Austin/San Antonio triangle area. Driving times between those 3 points pushing right at 3 hours. But the hassle of security at the airport, need to be there an hour before, Wx and mechanical delays make flying an unattractive solution. Proposed high speed rail between Houston and Dallas has a 90 minute travel time. Since I do work in all theses cities, I support the push forward this project.

    High Speed rail for longer distances however can’t compete with air from a business traveler prospective. I am just shy of being a million miler flyer on 2 different airlines with my over 24 years of consulting and trust me, if there was anyway to avoid flying I would take it, But as solicitr stated time is money when it comes to business travel.
     
  33. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2020
    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    1,117
    The airline lobby is very powerful and welcomes any competition.
    After all porkbarrel politics is a native american metaphor.

    Having sampled both, Amtrak smells much better than some of the greyhounds....
     
  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    6,054
    Likes Received:
    8,646
    This thread took this left turn because I responded to

    I probably should have directly replied to "gone downhill", and then as one side point mentioned that high-speed trains aren't economically viable here, which is not evidence of "downhill." Quite the contrary: 50 years ago, US railroads were teetering on the edge of bankruptcy - the Penn Central bankruptcy was and in constant dollars remains the biggest in US history. Whereas today- well, let me boast a little bit: nobody in the world does freight rail like the US. We are the Godzilla of moving stuff by rail. No, we haven't done much at all with passenger rail- because it was a money-losing proposition; operating loss on passenger service by 1971 was the heaviest millstone of those which nearly drowned the railroads. And still is: Amtrak loses a billion dollars per year, even though it charges fare prices as high as or higher than a plane ticket. Again: where are the paying passengers who would make a high-speed network viable? It would be building Concorde-on-rails, fast, sexy, and drowning in red ink. Yes, as LeadCatcher says, there are a few places where major cities are located in the "golden zone" of 150-200 miles apart, but not many and certainly not a national network's worth.

    Safety systems? The measure of a safety system's effectiveness is safety. If we had a notably higher accident rate than Germany with its elaborate PZB setup, then there might be an argument, but we don't. Complex and annoying does not necessarily mean more effective.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  35. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    5,907
    Im just gonna leave this here.
    tapICdy.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 2
  36. RestrictedProceed

    RestrictedProceed New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2020
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    20
    ATSF used Automatic Train Stop system (ATS) on many of their passenger routes and locomotives since around 1930s. I think that this system, while not completely foolproof, is actually safer than any kind of dead man's switch. However, there certainly were other RRs running at similar speeds and using no safety systems at all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  37. Blu

    Blu Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2021
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    91
    Bit off topic but did you know Total Operations Processing System (TOPS) which is often associated with "British Rail" was actually a "Southern Pacific Railroad" system BR bought into. It was jointly developed with SP, Stanford University and IBM.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page