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Clinchfield Preview (video Edition)

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Challenger3985, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    For those saying that this route shows up the scenery on Arosa (which it does), you need to bear in mind that Arosa is running along the side of glacial valleys (which we all remember from geography lessons are U-shaped) with mountains that are visible from many miles away. Clinchfield runs through V-shaped river valleys, where the most distant scenery is only a few hundred yards/metres away. If they tried to replicate this scenery in Arosa, you'd be looking at a few fps. Which is not to say that Rivet shouldn't be trying (I'm sure they are) to find better techniques for representing distant wooded areas.
     
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  2. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    However, judging from HMA and the stream last night, you have a right to be proud of your timetables. The gameplay is what makes HMA one of the best routes, and CRR is looking to be more of the same!

    If only the same enthusiasm for gameplay had made it into the Great Western Blue or the Arosa Line...
     
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  3. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The preview was really great, nice looking locos, decent sounds (please, swap the SD40 horn fast... like really really fast) and top-notch scenery (comparisons to Friday stream just have to happen, sorry). Service mode seems interesting, scenarios are lengthy and look difficult as well. Overall great impression.

    I would only have one major gripe that comes from Sam's question at 20:35 in the preview - the route has 30 mines with many (un)loading facilities and the service mode only uses one??? Why? What's the reason for this? If I bring empties to a mine, how do they become full when I pick them up? Does AI load them (then why can't it be a service) or does coal just spawn inside (hopefully not)?

    As I said, it's otherwise a stunning route, but that makes this one thing absolutely glaring to me as I would expect basically all the trains to be loadable by player.
     
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  4. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Engineers who run the various turns out to the mines do not get involved in loading the coal into the cars themselves. They bring empties out to the mines and then swap loaded cars at the mines for the empties until they only have loaded cars, then run home to dante.

    During the following days the coal is then loaded into the cars as it is mined and at some point they are ready for the next turn to do a collection and drop more cars off.

    I got one service done for loading at the atomic mine but that was it, I focused efforts on the runs out to each of the branches and recreating the main engineer roles on the main turns you see on the clinchfield as that provides the majority of what I think people would want to do.

    Matt.
     
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  5. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    So, having watched the video uploaded last night, this will be a route I’ll be purchasing. Well done DTG, you’ve sold me a route I didn’t intend to buy :love:

    The route looks absolutely stunning, it definitely looks realistic and is very atmospheric and immersion making.

    My only criticisms are the obvious pop in of some scenery assets and some of the trees close to the track obviously getting more and more detail as you get closer to them. Also the horn sounds don’t sound very loud and it still doesn’t sound as if you are driving enormously powerful locomotives with super-sized diesel engines just a short distance away from you in the engine room.

    But great job overall DTG. You’ve earned my hard earned money :love:
     
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  6. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I intended on purchasing Arosa and not Clinchfield, but the tables have definitely turned...
     
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  7. Djb1990

    Djb1990 Active Member

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    Only had a quick flick through the preview, but it looks awesome. I had very little interest in this until now, and was more interested in arosa, but these streams have flipped this opinion.

    I love sand patch but rarely have the time or patience for the long runs. It's nice to see the long runs on clinchfield broken down into more manageable time frames. You can continue the runs as long as you like, but can just do each part of the run in separate sittings if needed. Perfect!

    Edit: I also really love the branching on the route. It adds a bit of variety to the runs. That's one of the reasons I love East coast way. More of the same please!
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    So the loading is then done by some other group with a dedicated locomotive? The way you describe makes sense I admit... but it definitely makes me hope for some such addition later on, mainly because it would be a shame to have such a big infrastructure go unused. The route definitely screams gameplay options and that's great!
     
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  9. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    It's the other way around. 3-4 services on CRR are equal to 1 service on other routes. They split them in multiple parts, thus apparently increasing the number of services, whereas on RSN you get one service that does multiple parts.
     
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  10. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    It might be a different role, but it would be cool to spawn on foot at a mine and be able to do the loading separate from any of the services.
     
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  11. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Background animated AI switching of all these coal cars could be very CPU demanded. And of course this could be epic and breathtaking too. I am on the side for set-outs / pick-ups gameplay mechanics. I hope, someday, maybe, we get some switcher locomotive and some real movement there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  12. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. No other route ever offered anything as long as 6-8 hours, so splitting it makes sense. Although it would be great to first have some improvement when going from one service to another. It is rather clunky now (debrief, confirm, return to free roam, hope the unit has something else to do). It would be better if right at the debrief you were told "hey, this train continues in 10 minutes on this service, wanna stay?"
     
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  13. eurocityboy

    eurocityboy Active Member

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    It looks absolutely brilliant! Exactly what I had hoped for! My only minor gripe is that the horn level doesn't sway on the F7, like it does on some versions in TS1. That would really add to the sense of movement. I really hope there will be a future loco DLC for switching and loading, that would just be the icing on the cake. Well done DTG!
     
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  14. deki32

    deki32 Well-Known Member

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    If this is a pun, it is brilliantly executed ;). Cheers
     
  15. Warspite

    Warspite Active Member

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    At some of the smaller coal tipples, coal hoppers were spotted by one of the 'coal job' locomotives and later loaded by either a winch cable or by gravity with a brakeman on the rear car controlling the speed. Bit difficult to recreate in the game but would explain why loaded cars are there without a switcher. At Haysi, there was the legendary cabless B unit which switched empty and loaded cars - now that would be a great addition!
     
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  16. met_cui98

    met_cui98 Member

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    I'm a little worried about the signaling. At 25:25 in the "stream", Matt's train is entering the siding, but has a green-over-red indication instead of what should be a red-over-yellow since the train is leaving the main. Hopefully any outstanding signaling issues like this can be addressed before release. I avoided passenger services on NEC because of its signaling, and I would hate to have to avoid another US route with great promise due to more of the same.

    On a much more minor note, near the end of the video, it appears Matt sits in the caboose in the front-facing seat, but is show in the rear-facing seat in the external view.
     
  17. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    There were also some ghost speed limit drops - not announced and all of a sudden speed went from 30 to 25 in front of a tunnel. (32:07) This would definitely be a big annoyance for players.
     
  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Matt had the speed limit notifications turned on in the HUD in the video, just the signal notifications, so no speed limits were shown.
     
  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Oh... fair point, this one stood out to me and I haven't noticed it's not there at all. My bad.
     
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  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Matt Would you mind explaining how the team managed to make the trees and ground scenery look so good, without damaging performance?

    Previous TSW routes had the tendency to look quite bare in this regard, with the ground textures often being very simplistic (only one plain texture) and the 2D trees looking like cardboard cutouts.

    Is there anything the team building the scenery did differently this time round compared to previous routes?

    Thanks.
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Apparently Clinchfield had its own peculiar signals. As far as I can see, the passing loops don't distinguish between "main" and "siding", simply "up" and "down" (esp. since the speeds are so low that there's no need to slow for switches), and so green/red here could very well mean "right of way: proceed clear" pretty much as it usually does. Had Matt been a little slower or the down train a little faster, then I expect we would have seen yellow there and red at the end of the loop.
     
  22. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Actually in the caboose external that wasn't Matt just one of the games placements. On the signals, minor pick, it should have been red over green since the signal at the other end is already green, so the diverting train is getting a "clear diverting or diverting clear" depending on how Clinchfield would have said it. The yellow, approach, should only show if the next signal for that train is red.
     
  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    IF it's considered a "diverting" at all, and not simply the northbound main line.
     
  24. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    The accepted format for signal heads in the US is top head main, next head down diverting route. I am fairly sure Clinchfield adhered to this.
     
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  25. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    This is a siding, or loop as its called in GB, not a second main track.
     
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but the impression I get is that the passing loops on the CRR are more "divided highways" than "main and siding", and neither one is a diverting.
     
  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And you assert this because...?
     
  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately, we don't expect a manual for this :D
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    ;)
     
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  30. met_cui98

    met_cui98 Member

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    This article (fascinating in its own right) details the installation of CTC on the Clinchfield in 1950. Starting toward the end of page 2, in the section on Color Light Signals it says:

    At each end of power-operated siding, there is a two "arm" high station entering signal, the top "'arm" of which governs train movements on the main line, and the bottom " arm" of which governs train movements into the siding.

    I highly doubt that the railroad subsequently changed its practices after the installation of CTC to go against standard operating practice on other North American railroads.
     
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  31. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'll check the track charts but I seem to recall that at Trammel, the right hand track is actually marked as the northbound main while the left hand is the passing - oddly enough. All the others, the diversion is the passing track as you'd expect. I'll check with the charts and the team tho :)

    As to how the team make magnificent artwork I cannot possibly hope to understand and explain what they do, it's all magic as far as I'm concerned. I know they work hard with each release to try and improve various areas, and I suspect that given the prevalence of foliage on this line they spent extra time working on it to make it look as good as possible - the same with the rocks. What that is, I have no idea, but I love what they do :)

    Matt.
     
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  32. met_cui98

    met_cui98 Member

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    However, the bottom signal head only has two aspects (yellow and red), so it cannot display diverging clear even if that would be the most appropriate aspect to display based on conditions.
     
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  33. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I see your point- but then (given light signals replacing semaphores), we would see no yellow: just green and red - there is no caution involved, because there is no "approach" to anything. And if the down train is the one which is stopped, but on the western track, then one would I think be justified in assuming that in this case the west side is the "siding" and the east the "main", whatever the switch geometry (again, no switch slowdown is required at such low speeds). In which case green over red would be appropriate.

    _____

    I'm not sure I concur with "standard operating practice on other North American railroads." Divergence signals are a characteristic of route-signal systems, which are typical of the UK and of western US RR like the UP. Eastern US RR have traditionally used speed signaling systems, where head position has nothing to do with "main," "divergence" etc but rather high, medium and low-speed routing. http://www.mikeroque.com/railroad-signals/ describes the NYC system, which was typical. Using S-S logic, the top head governs movement at line speed, whichever direction it goes.
     
  35. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    I knew something looked off to me (no pun intended).
     
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  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Very witty.:D
     
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  37. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    Positioning of the cars was done (and is still done in many places) either by a locomotive that the mine owned, or by winches that were hooked up to the cars.
     
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or even by gravity, together with a ballsy brakeman.

    Having said that, the CRR owned and used a number of shunters- and even the F7B "shunter" at Haysi
     
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  39. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I am familiar with Clinchfield and its a single track railroad with passing sidings.
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    According to Matt's post above, at the Trammel loop the eastern track is the main line and the western the passing track/siding, even if physically it's the east side that 'diverges'
     
  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, some of the mine operators had their own switchers, maybe an old Alco S2 or S4.
    There's really no limit to the Americana that can be "mined" from this fascinating route.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  42. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    What about EMD GP7(high nose)as a coal switcher for a mine owner?It is a older model(mid 50's i think) and might be a bit cheaper for a mine owner to pickup 2nd hand.The TS clinchfeild uses this locos,so this would be a good reason to add it along with some extra services.
     
  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, but possibly too much engine for the job. A GP7 is only "small" by modern road engine standards: 56 feet long, weighs a quarter of a million pounds and generates (and thus burns fuel for) 1500 hp: a tight fit at those cramped mine tipples, and more juice than is needed for moving five hoppers at a time. An old NW-2 or S4 would be a lot more economical for a mine owner.
     
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  44. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    And Matt may by correct, I am going on the visual and its usually the diverging track that is the siding. If what Matt says is correct then the signal is correct.
     
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  45. Warspite

    Warspite Active Member

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    At McClure, the Clinchfield Coal Co. had an old Alco switcher (I think it was an S2) which they had converted to remote control to be operated by the tipple operator.
     
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  46. Warspite

    Warspite Active Member

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    An S4 or an S2 would be very nice. Who doesn't love an Alco!
     
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  47. Cyklisten

    Cyklisten Well-Known Member

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    Finally I could watch the preview video. What can I say... I didn't really like shetland sheepdog and this kind of dogs. But last year my wife insisted so we got one. Well... I paid, 18k SEK or so. And we are really good friends by now ;) The same applies here. SPG is kind of boring while just driving from A to B, so I thought that I'll maybe get CRR when it's on sale. I've just bought Oakville only to complete my collection, and it's not the best route ever. But today, when I watched the gameplay of Clinchfield on YT I can't resist anymore. And the door for some new services with upcoming DLC is wide open. I have everything I need. Regarding Arosa, I will probably buy it as well, don't want to compare these two routes.
     
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  48. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, for any small mine owner with limited cars to move and tight tracks to navigate that make sence.So i guess there are no really large mine on the clinchfeild route with enough cars to move or trackage to move them around to justify such a large fuel guzzle beast like a emd gp7.(I still would hope dtg can squeeze a emd gp7 in tsw2 somewhere).


    On a side note did mine owners have to hire expert highly skill locomotive engineers to operate whatever kind of locomotive they ended up useing to move coal cars?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
  49. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    Most had S-2s or S-4s which were rebuilt with Caterpillar 325hp or Cummins 335hp engines, then put to work shuffling cars. Forest Mountain Products in Clintwood Mills, VA is a rebuilt S-2 that worked as a switcher at the McClure loadout for a couple years. The Pittco (Vicey, VA) and McClure (McClure, VA) loadouts still use rebuilt Alcos to position cars for loading
     
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  50. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    If someone, somehow... :D Always pay internet bills!

     
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