Cologne-frankfurt High Speed Line

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Swedewagon, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. creeperblox2710

    creeperblox2710 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if thats true, but apparently there are also the ICE 4s running on the SFS Köln-Rhein/Main.
     
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  2. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    ICE Line 42 uses ICE4 This is a trip report on Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main with DB BR412
    Even the DB BR407 does run here ICE Line 47
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This route is quite long to be honest but I would like to see the full route. High speed routes in tsw2 are simply way too short. ICE services on ska take 40 minutes, ICE services in hma take 25-30 minutes, Services on LGV is around 25 to 30 minutes. That's way to short for high speed services. These high speed trains are also long distance trains designed to do long distances at high speeds. They weren't designed to do 25-40 minute services. If dtg are gonna make another high speed route, the driving time of said route should be an hour or more or have the full line included. Hopefully in the future when the tech gets better this will be possible because in my opinion we can't keep getting high speed routes where the services can be done so quickly
     
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  4. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    But Cologne-Frankfurt isn't a long route because trains only go on the route by about 1 hour and with stops 1.20 hours, so it's a fine route, it wouldn't make any problems and it should run really well
     
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  5. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    We have to define the term "long". 180km in reality are quite short for a train but the same distance in TSW is a different story.
    However I still believe that it is of great importance that the game focuses its view on longer routes. Especially with the introduction of High-Speed trains, this is something what should have been done since the beginning of the game. A route dobule the length of SKA or HMA is needed if the game doesn't want to disappoint players.

    It is equally important to have a route where 300km/h is allowed for the ICE. Cologne-Frankfurt would be the perfect opportunity and a huge leap in Train Simulation in many aspects.
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    However, such a route would be incredibly boring, unless one simply likes to go from Point A to Point B at 300 km/h. Like LGV, except worse, because DTG would be straining its resources past the breaking point just to create a 180km main line, so there would be no man-hours available for any branches or usable yards, timetables for other trains or any but the most rudimentary scenery and cloned building assets.
     
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  7. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    Well, that is your point of view. But there are obviously a lot of people who would enjoy just that. To take the ICE for a long drive with real high-speed over a large distance.
    Furthermore I don't think that many would agree on your statement that the LGV was boring or maybe even bad. Because the LGV DLC is not just one of the highest positively rated DCLs on Steam. No, it is also the most reviewed one. And I also remember Sam saying, that it will possibly be the most popular DLC in time. What does this show? It shows me that high-speed routes are very highly appreciated. Especially these with 300 km/h and that there is a wide playerbase who likes exactly that.
    So you cannot say it would be incredibly boring and apply that statement to all players. This is your opinion and that's fine and I understand it. And mine and many others opinion is that this route would be a fantastic addition. Everybody may have their own position to this.

    I don't want to go again in a detailed argumentation why we think that this route would be the ideal choice. There are countless of comments on the previous pages which have well thought out arguments on this topic.

    Nevertheless there is no excuse that routes don't get longer. The game should develop and improve - also concerning route length. And branches or usable yards are no important part of high-speed lines anyway - nobody expects this from a high-speed DLC. There are other DLCs for shunting tasks and similar things.
    And last but not least I don't see why a less detailed scenery would be any harm for a route, where the train travels with 300 km/h. The faster the train goes, the less detailed the scenery has to be, since you don't have much time to examine objects in detail. Actually, if you look from this perspective, a long high speed route would be perfect for DTG. As more detailed areas are always harder to accomplish and the world from DTG still looks a bit empty, on this route, they wouldn't need to pay attention to every detail and it wouldn't even be bad and they could fulfill the players wish for longer routes in the same way.
    Classic Win-Win.
     
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  8. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    There are still other trains like S Bahn and Regional trains along the route in cologne or in Frankfurt and otherwise scenarios could give us more interesting things that could happen on the route, it's not only the ride from Cologne to Frankfurt, there are also some ICE that stop at some of the stations on the route
     
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  9. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes, normally I don't really like dedicated High sleed routes (LGV is fun, but it does get boring after 1-2 runs, so I don't play ot often). However this route seems varied enough to be really fun.

    In addition to that there is also the dream (and it's nothing more than a dream) of conmecting it to SKA, allowing for a huge contrast between the Aachen - Düren section, the Düren - Köln section, the sections around the big stations and the Köln Frankfurt high speed line.

    All in all, I do really think that this route could be great fun, if done correctly, and not just boring A-B runs where you only press SIFA for an hour.
     
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  10. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Does this route have ETCS or only LZB?
     
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  11. creeperblox2710

    creeperblox2710 Well-Known Member

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    Only LZB i believe.
     
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  12. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I believe just LZB. As far as I can tell ETCS was originally planned, but cancelled due to delays in it's development, leading to it's replacement by LZB.
     
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  13. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    creeperblox2710 and jolojonasgames are right.
    It is a special type of LZB: the "LZB L72 CE-II" (also known as CIR-ELKE). This further development has some differences compared to the standard LZB L72 and also some additional features. One new feature only used on the Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Rhein/Main and the Schnellfahrstrecke Nürnberg–Ingolstadt is the "Weichenausdehnung" (switch-expansion). Normally a junction is secured by a signal in front of it. And if a train needs to change the track, the slower speed must be reached at the signal securing the junction. On CIR-ELKE with this additional feature however, the new speed needs to be achieved at the switch and not as before at the signal in front of it. This allows trains to brake later and also to accelerate earlier. This can be easily observed at stations like Limburg Süd or Montabaur. Since normal signals would contradict to the information shown by the LZB ( i.e. the signal says that you have to be at 100 km/h at its position but the LZB still commands a higher speed), the signals simply go dark, to avoid misunderstandings. Because under LZB-guidance, the displays in the cab have always priority over signals outside of the train.

    Dunkelschaltung.png

    The LZB on this route is laid out as LZB with "Teilblock" (section-block) to increase capacity. The definition of that is, that one long "Ganzblock" (full block) is divided into several smaller blocks, displayed by signs ("Blockkennzeichen" (block-signs)) along the track. These indicate the beginning of a new "Teilblock" and can only be used together with LZB, because the signs don't give any information by themselves other than separating one block from another. They are essentially like normal signals but only the LZB can read them. For example the greatest distance between two main signals on this route is ~35 km (namely at the start and end of a "Ganzblock") but the average distance between two block-signs is just 2 km (length of a "Teilblock"). So trains guided by LZB could follow each other with a 2 km separation whereas trains under PZB can't use the smaller blocks and could only follow each other with 35 km in between. So yes, it's definitely a dedicated route for vehicles with LZB although the route is equpiped with PZB too and driving under PZB would be possible.
    On SKA and HMA on the other side (also both equipped with LZB L72 CE-II), the "Vollblock" or "Ganzblock" (full-block) is used. Every new block starts with a separate main signal, so trains under PZB can drive there without hindering other trains. And of course the blocks are not stretched to 35 km then.
    By the way: these types of sectioning do not require CIR-ELKE. It is a general design question for routes with LZB. Either a route got designed with additional segments or not.
    To wrap this up:
    "Ganzblock": permanent and stationary signals along the track defining one segment.
    "Teilblock": "Blockkennzeichen" defining several shorter segments in the area of a "Ganzblock".

    Blockkennzeichen.png


    Overall the differences between the classic L72 and CIR-ELKE are subtle, however very diverse. For example the connection-loss procedures or the LZB-entry is slightly different. But the LZB-entry in TSW2 is completely wrong anyway so who cares.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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  14. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Here is a video from MysticZeenoz and he gives some more information about the route
     
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  15. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Well explained and for the manual on Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main DTG abbreviation SRM this must be explained in addition to the standard warnings about PZB & Sifa. The warnings on German routes that have PZB LZB and Sifa do not try and learn PZB/LZB Sifa at the same time. This is another route where one of my suggestion Appenweier-Strasbourg Railway combined with Mannheim-Karlsruhe Appenweier segment has the DB BR407 since it's used for ICE Line 47 towards München Hbf from HRR Dortmund Essen Bochum Duisburg down to HMA via SRM SMS. SMS is an Abbreviation of Schnellfahrstrecke Mannheim Stuttgart to which SRM can link to if Frankfurt Am Main Mannheim section is built.
     
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  16. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Here is a video with more information about the route, but it's only in German
     
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  17. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    Recently I had an idea, what would be nice to have on this route. simontreanor81 suggested, to implement a new livery for the ICE 3: The Regenbogen-ICE.
    Since there wouldn't come any new trains with this route, DTG could make perhaps some different variations for the ICE 3. Currently there are four colours:

    Red Stripe (standard)
    Green Stripe/Green Cab cars (Klimaschützer)
    Blue Stripe (Europa ICE)
    Rainbow Stripe (Regenbogen-ICE)

    Although the Rainbow ICE is not used on the SFS Köln-Rhein/Main right now it would be a cool sight for sure to see different ICE rush through the scenery.
    Today I will be in Limburg Süd and take the ICE to Frankfurt. Maybe I can make a picture of the route :)
     
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  18. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    There could come new trains, like for example the Br423 for cologne and Frankfurt, with the right sound, and the right livery, but otherwise some special livery for some trains
     
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  19. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    drnicktgm#1259 Yes, it would be fantastic to get new trains but I thought just a different coloured stripe on an otherwise completely identical ICE would be a bit easier to do than modelling a new variation with a different interior for example. Besides that there are a hand full of imaginable trains for the SFS Köln-Rhein/Main. But to ask for the route itself AND new rolling stock, would be a little bit too much even in my eyes.

    However, as I previously wrote I was in Limburg Süd yesterday and witnessed an ICE doing 300 km/h form the outside and from this close for the first time. I would say I am kind of familiar with the route but I never stood on a platform when a train passed through.
    So I walked on the platform for Frankfurt and just several seconds later an ICE drove through in direction to Köln. I knew that trains may speed up to 300 km/h there and expected the worst. But actually it was not as loud as I thought and somehow also a bit unspectacular. So, a bit disappointed, I got myself in position to wait for my train to Frankfurt which got delayed by about 10 minutes.
    But then, when I expected it the least, out of nowhere, a second ICE drove through the station. And this one really did make 300 km/h!
    It was unbelievably loud and the ground began to shake. As I didn't expect it to be this powerful since I thought the first ICE went also 300 km/h and videos on YouTube are by far not that violent, I got really scared.
    Sadly, the ICE I boarded was not able to speed up more than 200 km/h due to technical problems but it was worth a ride nonetheless.

    Here's the picture I made from Limburg Süd: 800.jpg
     
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  20. creeperblox2710

    creeperblox2710 Well-Known Member

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    Some of the BR 423's on the S-Bahn Köln have the same Sound as the HMA one.
     
  21. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but it would be cool if we would have both of them, with different sound, so that it is s mix
     
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  22. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Well done for got in your personal story on Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main. Dovetail Games abbreviation is SRM if made for TSW2. Does the route see DB BR407 if so make it standard for SRM then layer it on to Karlsruhe Appenweier-Strasbourg Railway if made. Straight out-of-the-box you're going to get Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen base game users maxing out DB BR406 and Haputstrecke München Augsburg DB BR403. For the SRM DTG abbreviation for Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main if made and DB BR407 standard it can't be coupled to DB BR406 SKA DB BR403 HMA since it's going to cause issues due to coding. This is found on page 13 of TS21 DB BR407 Manual.
     
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  23. creeperblox2710

    creeperblox2710 Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind having all of the S-Bahn Köln 423's with the same sound.
     
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  24. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    Initially Deutsche Bahn wanted to couple the Br407 with the Br403/6. But the plan got rejected because the both trains are too different in their software. But it should be mechanically possible: the couplings are basically the same (Scharfenbergkupplung). In real life they even connected an ICE 3 with an ICE 1.

    But since the ICE 3 isn't coupled with the Velaro D in real life anyway it wouldn't be too much of a harm to not have it in TSW2.
     
  25. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Ok then but for SKA DB BR406 it can be coupled with DB BR403 HMA that meant if you have Haputstrecke München Augsburg with Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen and this proposal Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main your DB BR406 base game can be coupled to a DB BR403 HMA or SRM which is seen here on line 43 from Essen HRR to Basel with Line 78 Amsterdam Duisburg Oberhausen-Arnhem route coupling at Duisburg Hbf or Köln HBF for Frankfurt and Basel.
     
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  26. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    I think if it wouldn't be technically possible to summon a train with the Br403 and 406, then there could be a coupling scenario, because I think that if these trains would get summoned separately, than it should work, because I have tried out to couple both trains together and it worked, so this would fix this issue and we would also get a coupling scenario in the game
     
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  27. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    Let's not get ahead of ourselves here ;)
    We are still far, far away from this route but we are already discussing advanced scenario techniques^^
    Although I am totally into it :D

    Perhaps what we should really be talking about are compromises. More and more I do also think that DTG may be not up to the task. So we should discuss what part of this route is most important to us or on what we can do without, to increase the chances for this route. Otherwise I have a feeling we'll never see it in TSW2, even with a thousand likes and big support.
    However, talking of compromises, I don't want to miss out too much. Because the special thing about this route is it's long distance. That's just the way it is. The part I just could do without is probably from Frankfurt Airport to the Central Station, about 10 to 15 minutes with average 50 km/h. I can imagine that this would be one of the most time consuming things to develop and since the trains do stop at the Airport, this station could be used as a start and end point. Maybe Frankfurt Central Station can come later with a merge for an other route? (absolute wish territory)
    But what I most definitely don't want to abandon, is the desire for a long and fast train ride. From Cologne all the way down to Frankfurt: that's the reason why I'm here and it's probably the same reason for all the others who liked this suggestion. So to cut the route even further down would be an absolute no go to me.
     
  28. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    It has been almost a year since this proposal did not appear on the road map.
    How long does this take?
     
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  29. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    It is not even certain that this route comes at all. But if it would come, I guess it would take at least an other year but very likely twice or even three times longer than that.
     
  30. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    We don't really have any idea on that. Any suggestion is noted, and then might be taken into consideration when new routes are decided. Then, at some point after the decision making, we might see it on the roadmap.

    We'll see, there is no clear path from suggestion to roadmap. The suggested routes are just taken into consideration (perhaps DTG are looking to do a certain type of route, and then look into the suggestions if anything fits that requirement, or a number of suggestions show demand for a certain type of route, but DTG decides to do a route that has not been suggested, but does fit the type of routes that have been suggested, etc.)

    The suggestions forum is simply a way to show demand for a specific route or a type of route, which DTG can then use when planning new routes.
     
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  31. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    I don't really understand DTG concept of how they plan doing a route, but I think if a suggestion is really popular, than there is a higher chance, that it could get added next to the route map, but at the moment, there are other routes they want to bring out, so it might take some time, I think Matt has mentioned, that this route was one of the most suggested routes, so I think, that DTG has already plans on doing this route, but they don't have time at the moment on doing the route, but we'll see what they say in the future, we still don't know what will come after Rush hour so there is a chance, that this route could be added to the route map, or maybe another route that is really popular
     
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  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    So you mean if you have HMA DB BR403 and SKA DB BR406 in the scenario planner you can couple them to each other. For SRM this is seen with the ICE Line 78 to Amsterdam via Duisburg Oberhausen and Arnhem coupled to the ICE Line 79 service to Aaachen from Frankfurt Am Main Hbf to Koln Hbf or Line 42 HRR Bochum to HMA Munchen Hbf coupled to SKA DB BR406 from Amsterdam on Arhnhem to Koln railway via Dusseldorf Oberhausen and Duisburg if made
     
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  33. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's possible, I tried it out, I summoned my train in Colonge Ehrenfeld, and the other in Köln HBF, then I waited until the other train arrived at the red signal behind my train, then I drove backwards to cupple the other ICE train and it worked, I could make a video about it to show how it works if you don't understand it how I did it
     
  34. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    I have found a video, where someone tried it out but on Marseille Avignon
    he did it on Minute 28:14, it isn't a perfect tutorial how to do it, but it shows, that it works, on another video someone tried to cupple the ICE with the Talent 2 and this way he did it is the way I ment it how to do it, only that you use an ICE instead of the Talent 2
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
  35. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting to have a route with ETCS is there anything special about it or how does it work?
     
  36. da.virus

    da.virus Member

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    Maybe Köln-Frankfurt gets an "Update" to ETCS in the next decades. For now the route serves its purpose but if DB wants to double their passengers per year, it could be possible to make changes to the infrastructure. However, as I said: For now LZB works more than fine and it is unlikely that there will be a modification in near future.

    The special thing with ETCS is, that it is the first Safety-System which is compatible throughout Europe "European Train Control System". Every Country has its sovereignty about specific values like for trains driving on Sight (For example Germany uses 40 km/h but Czech Republic 100 km/h) but the displays and the antennas are the same for each locomotive. The advantage is that there don't have to be a traction-change at the border and this means less time for more kilometres. At least in theory.
    The principle of ETCS is actually pretty simple. Between the tracks are small Transponders, the so called "Eurobalise". If a train drives over such a Transponder, it sends data to the antenna on the locomotive and gets also information back from it.
    There is also a possibility to send data via GSM-R. This allows a continuous data exchange between the "Radio Block Center" and the train. According to the method used, ETCS gets differentiated in Levels. Currently there are four Levels:

    Level 0: The track has no ETCS equipment and no Data exchange is happening.
    Level 1: Data exchange at defined points (Eurobalise) or Loops
    Level 2: continuous Data exchange via GSM-R
    Level 3: continuous Data exchange via GSM-R and moving Blocks

    There are also variations for the different Levels like for example on the VDE 8 in Germany, "ETCS L2oS" is used. This means: "ETCS Level 2 ohne Signale" and says that no signals are going to be placed on the track and all information will be displayed in the cab.
     
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  37. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point there but that will require the Manual for Schnellfahrstrecke Rhein-Main to be re written to include information on European train control system
     
  38. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

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    So far there is not even a manual, because the route is not even planned for TSW2.
     
  39. drnicktgm#1259

    drnicktgm#1259 Well-Known Member

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    The most interesting thing on the route for me is the scenery, sadly tsw doesn't have the same scenery like in real life, because that is the thing, that makes a route so great, tsw has a good graphic, but it will sadly never be like in real life
     
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  40. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    Yes, it only takes time, the times are advancing!
    Unreal Engine is constantly updated. Whether the game can fully replicate the real scene also depends on the hardware of our players. If the real details are copied into the game, the 3090, the strongest game graphics card so far, can't do it.
    Seeing this topic, I really hope I was born this year. The year I was 20 was 2041, and the graphics card should be fine for 20 years. However, after 20 years of waiting for the evolution of computer hardware, I have become an old man. I don’t know if I have time to play the simulated train.
     
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