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Crr Line Guide

Discussion in 'Creation Centre' started by vogelm10, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Okay here we go. This is a guide for the Clinchfield Railroad. It isn't going to initially be 100% correct due to some bugs in the way the signals work on this line.

    So let's begin. Here are mile markers. Main line ones are just numbers which show the milage. Branch lines have identifying letters before the number and also are a bit different.

    84335d58-188f-4ff2-8149-c4cade7f387d.jpeg Mile 1

    957bb743-cb9f-46e0-a6b7-ada94195fb7e.jpeg
    Mile 35
    935bc76c-95de-4900-bee7-969dff5c691d.jpeg

    N22. This is a branch line but the 22 isn't 22 miles. It's 2. The number scheme on these go N11 / N22 / N33 / etc....

    20acfcb9-6ef6-499d-bca4-ad9e3dc1dab8.jpeg

    H11 Same thing different branch line.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
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  2. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Next up are other important signs.

    Speed limits in MPH.
    4ba00d76-eb3b-41cb-833b-8f602de73ef1.jpeg 60de640d-5b0c-44cf-aaae-1972be64a147.jpeg

    Next up is a very important one. The Conditional Stop Board. Treat this as a red signal and stop at the board before contacting the signaler to get permission to proceed .
    01ff05b1-04e9-43a9-9c8c-0db3a797f876.jpeg

    This sign is to show no space on the side.
    335b7b5c-cb9b-4715-b720-b1e104d770f5.jpeg
     
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  3. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Okay signals now. So here are some basics. For the most part signals are placed to the right of the track they govern.

    Dwarf signals are usually used on exits from sidings and show slower speeds than the main signals.

    Block Signals which show permissive stop. IRL these can be passed at Stop either after waiting a designated time or contacting the signaler. You can tell block signals because they have a number plate on them.

    Interlocking signals have no number plate and can't be passed at red.

    This is a block signal 9a042d38-5879-4965-869a-c4e244c9aceb.jpeg

    This is an Interlocking signal. IRL the lower red light should be also on the bottom.
    71f8ed92-d701-4525-abff-3a55b5cbec0e.jpeg

    Here is an example of some on the left. In this case (outside of Dante Yard) the dwarf signal is for the 2nd track and the main signal is for the 1st.
    265799fb-638a-45d0-80af-851d53bd44dc.jpeg

    And here we get to the oddest part of this line, bracket signals!
    b972fa8d-7a32-4b8c-b382-7c428750dca7.jpeg

    Okay what on earth is going on here?! Actually it's pretty easy. The dwarf signal is for the siding exit (right track) because it's a lower speed line. However the main signal is for the through line (left track) and is showing this by having a doll arm. The signal is towards the left and to the right of it is a single blue light which shows that there is one track between it.
    55626bd3-e18f-4d36-a52e-01f30ef576a6.jpeg
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A thought on signals- in lieu of an actual CRR handbook, one might want to look in the first instance at Seaboard's, or CSX's for ex-Seaboard territory. Clinchfield had been owned by ACL since 1924, which would include the period in the 50s when they installed the signal system, and it would not be unlikely they adopted something based on ACL (later SCL) signals.
     
  5. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Now for the aspects. With NA signals if it isn't all red it isn't stop.

    Permissive Stop*
    1783125b-4e77-4cf6-91d0-3c121b53c7a2.jpeg
    * IRL, this may not be the case in game.

    Absolute Stop
    9b9d8b93-c1c8-4287-9a7e-a56d2f39cc82.jpeg
    9db62f16-e4ad-4092-b848-91ee22e73acc.jpeg 575872c5-6b5c-4219-8e6c-0f0c4b0d9e3d.jpeg
     
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  6. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Approach. This shows the next signal is stop.
    7efe64b9-ffa3-439b-8097-1bcd606e2c0e.jpeg
    168e89e1-2bf2-43a7-9bab-3a116147ef96 (1).jpeg
    Dwarf signals show Slow Approach - same idea lower speed.
    655bf19a-3dfe-4b66-b8cc-fd0ab51c084c.jpeg be4130ba-d0a4-419d-97ce-74dd00173067.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
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  7. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Clear - next signal is showing a more favorable aspect than stop.
    6a6615ce-e1e8-40ae-a37d-6b81983d393f.jpeg bc8811e6-0a37-4fc5-bc87-11f292a87275.jpeg

    Dwarf signals show slow clear, same idea lower speed.
    917115c3-9a01-4e76-8b2b-7e3e7bd19540.jpeg
     
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  8. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Restricting. This aspect is broken in the game mechanics and doesn't show up. However on signals that can show straight or diverging routes like this one below the restricting aspect is shown with a red on top and the bottom signal shows lunar white.
    9b9d8b93-c1c8-4287-9a7e-a56d2f39cc82.jpeg

    The main location this is broken is at the Allen Storage.
    1a581571-3988-4c66-aaf7-08ddea866142.jpeg
    This bracket signal should be able to show restricting, and there is a 4 light dwarf signal in this area as well that should show it. When this is fixed I'll update it.
     
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  9. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    And here we have actual CSX rules. I didn't scan my system wide rule book in because it had a trade mark funnily enough. However this is the page from the CSX CORA (Chicago Operating Rules Association) booklet. It has the same information that is relevant to this line.
    2021-04-11_01-09-35.jpg 2021-04-11_01-09-45.jpg
     
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  10. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    2021-04-11_01-09-05.jpg 2021-04-11_01-08-55.jpg 2021-04-11_01-08-44.jpg 2021-04-11_01-08-30.jpg
     
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  11. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Okay that does it for this line, actually pretty easy!
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Permissive Stops are signals with number plates. IRL and (one hopes) in game, can be passed at red with dispatcher permission. Depending on the RR, one may have to come to a complete stop before proceeding. Absolute stops have no number plate on the mast and cannot be passed.

    (Permissives usually are ABS, automatic block signals)
     
  14. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this guide, these signals are way different than the modern ones most of us are used to.
     
  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A query: was Limited Speed a thing yet in the game route's timeframe?
     
  16. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    And forgot to add this!

    Switches! Um so they don't seem to always be this way so double check them but red is left and yellow is right.
    ea7d192f-57b7-4449-9291-0bb0aee23b7f.jpeg 45698307-a391-41ba-b9ce-6434edb73da5.jpeg 7dd13ba2-08cc-488a-9523-ec564c0d988d.jpeg 85f81423-e49c-473f-a840-8ae3d91e8e29.jpeg
     
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  17. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this line was fast enough to warrant it.
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Fair point.
     
  19. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    But as far as limited speed existing in the 70s absolutely. My CCOR book from 67 has it.
     
  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking more of the 50s, which is when CRR's system was installed
     
  21. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Well this is interesting. Earliest example I find of limited from my collection was early 60s with the B&O/C&O. Even my ones talking about the new CTC don't have it.
     
  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  23. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    I think that mileposts on branch line with double digits is bug. On Fremont line F1111 and higher don't even fit the plates.
    Picture added!
    20210410162957_1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  24. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    I'd not be surprised, this line has some issues for sure.
     
  25. RestrictedProceed

    RestrictedProceed New Member

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    Maybe I just did not understand what you meant by that, but my timetable from 2005 clearly says that all signals on the Keystone Sub (CSX's name for SPG) are signal rules 1280-1298, i. e. SCL/New Installations rather then legacy C&O rules with "C" prefix. That would make sense, as from what I've seen, all the signals there look quite new.

    I always thought you do not need permission to pass Permissive Stop, as the dispatcher usually has no idea why there is red anyway.
     
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, didn't know that.



    Permissive Stops are usually associated with automatic block signals- and on those, although the dispatcher doesn't set them, his display will still indicate the aspect they're showing
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All right, here's an example:
    Screenshot (37).png

    In this case, the dwarf clearly controls the right-hand track, the "main", while the mast controls the "siding." I think CRR's use of dwarf signals had less to do with that distinction than it did with real estate: in most cases there wasn't room to put a full mast between the tracks, or any signal at all. Therefore a dwarf could mean "right side" as here, or if placed between the trackjs then it meant "left side."
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Having driven this route more I am beginning to believe that I have been mistaken, and DTG are cheating. Specifically, the distinction between main line and siding, since in several cases I have been routed (always to the right) through a passing loop under a 15 mph speed limit (un-signed, un-signaled, just decreed by Word of HUD God.). This could only be explained as a safety limit for going over switches - but in that case, IRL the signal would (on most railroads anyway) be a Proceed Slow (Slow speed through switches/crossovers, then resume line speed). I think we do have a dispatcher/signaling issue.
     
  29. vogelm10

    vogelm10 Well-Known Member

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    Oh not just this line, I'm making these kinds of guides for all our lines and can happily say that the North American routes all seem quite wrong.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit lost when it comes to speed limits over switches.

    I will refer to the HUD indications: no restriction at the entrance to the siding; on exit - 15 MPH.
    Sometimes it's different. What is the theory - the question is directed to the distinguished professors :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  31. aarontheloner

    aarontheloner Active Member

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    Nice info.
     
  32. rocknicehunter

    rocknicehunter New Member

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    I'm pretty sure that the northbound trains on the Clinchfield would NOT take the sidings if there was not meet at that siding. Additionally to that, Clinchfield put the train that would have the least trouble getting back out of the siding into the sidings for a meet regardless of their class, priority or direction. The signal before the sidings indicate Clear, meaning you'll be staying on the main. The signal at the entrance to the siding also indicates you are NOT taking the diverging route to the siding.

    Lastly my understanding is that the Permissive Block Signals may be passed when red without contacting the dispatcher. Some railroads did not even require a full stop before proceeding, which I believe was the case with the Clinchfield during the simmed time period too. Proceed at restricted speed after passing the signal, able to stop in no more than 1/2 your sight distance. Unknown if the game has this capability, but my guess is it doesn't. I may make up a scenario to test it later.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Agree with all of the above. The current routing on CRR is incorrect and needs to be altered. (Also, the white Restricting lamps need to be enabled; currently they're nonfunctional)
     
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  34. rocknicehunter

    rocknicehunter New Member

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    Just running a southbound extra coal drag in Clinchfield. Watching the AI I see it is keeping those northbound trains on the main at other sidings where there are no meets, so at least they are programmed correctly.
     

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