Current State Of The Game (spoiler: Not Good)

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Task, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    We don't fund them, that is a job for financiers, we are the customers never forget that, we aren't doing them a favour by buying these products. I never realised how small TSW is until I looked at the steam stats for concurrent users. Bearing in mind it is 1/3 of the total it is still miniscule really. They need to find a way to broaden out the player base a bit. I mean who knew so many people were fans of driving lorries?!
     
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  2. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Derail Valley devs have spent over a year working on their current upgrade. They haven't lost customers. And the game is still cheaper than one TSW loco. Train Sims are not an essential service. I can wait 7-8 months for quality than 12 months to 7 years (I'm looking at you, fix for TS Northeast Corridor!) for a patch. This is what I mean about the long dollar and long term customers rather than quick cash generation through flooding the market.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
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  3. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    Side quests and question-mark encounters, my man. You need to get stronger. Stick with it. Totally worth the investment.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or drugs. Lots and lots of drugs. The right (over) indulgence in alchemy can turn Geralt into an unstoppable killing machine.
     
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  5. SaMa1

    SaMa1 Active Member

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  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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  7. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    We'll soo find out about 6pm today
     
  8. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    I think the game is just missing that last 5% to make it really great. It has a lot of very good approaches, a lot of potential - and it definitely has its moments when playing. You can tell that it's also developed with love and enthusiasm.
    But again and again, the positive gaming experience is ruined by really stupid bugs that are simply unnecessary, sometimes go on forever without being fixed, and always generate this WTF-moments.
    You could almost say the game is a bit of a diva. You can't keep your hands off it but sometimes it just drives you crazy.

    A lot of positive things have happened in the last year or so. I still find the communication towards customers relatively open and honest, the community team is really exceptional. Just the fact that developers write and read here in the forum or people like Matt actively interact with the community - on an equal footing and not with this "I'm the holy developer" attitude.

    But there are also some really negative things... e.g. the belly landing with Rushhour, all the problems with the game consoles and especially(!!!) the stagnation in the releases of the preservation crew. It is simply not acceptable that hundreds of hours of work with bugfixes and improvements stuck in nowhere and do not reach the customer. That's ridiculous.

    My personal, humble opinion: regardless of all economic considerations, DTG should take half a year to put the game back on stable feet. Half a year no new releases, only intensive bugfixing, systematically, step by step. A properly fixed TSW would give me just as much (or more) joy than 4 new routes! (Because then I could play all the content again properly which is ruined for me or affected by bugs so far).

    Beyond that, I would ultimately focus on the editors and put as many features in there as possible. The development of scenarios is a huge time factor - so I would give as much of it as possible via editor in the hands of the community. DTG has already taken the right path there (Creators Club, Scenario Planner 2.0), they just need to really push it and prioritize it over new routes if necessary. Basically - new content is nice, but gameplay is more important (more sustainable) - and that comes e.g. via the scenario planner, which simply has to be as powerful as it can be. I would soften the rigid corset of regular DLCs a bit in favor of such features. This is financially difficult, but probably much more sustainable in the longer term (customer loyalty!). Especially since DLCs are likely to be bought more if the game is in a bug-free state, has more replay value and the gameplay experience is nice and immersive - without all these nasty little bugs and shortcomings.

    DTG holds it in its hand. The ingredients are all there. The game is fundamentally good and has potential, the community is great, the team members are often enthusiasts themselves, it's really only the last 5% that's missing to make this thing a really big thing.
    I know that the last 5% are the hardest at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    This really resonates with me and I echo this.
    Matt - Spot on all through the year, absolutely sound and deals with the good and bad. Cannot fault his approach and openess
    JD - Again really good, definitely getting more confident on the streams and pushing back which is great.
    Nat - The governor, Nat says, we listen. She's doing fantastic too.
    Jamie - That Xmas get up last night made my year, would like to see him on more TSW streams. ~
    Adam - How one man consumes so much energy drink without Youtube dressing the stream as an advert is beyond me. Again doing a great job.
    Sam - Personifies DTG to me, rides the high waves, funny as hell, little arrogant (in a good way) at times, suffers no one and I cant remember the last time I have missed a stream he has done.

    We are really lucky they want and choose to talk and engage with us
     
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  10. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    In an ideal world that would be simple, sadly we don't live in an ideal world. For one thing, not all the developers are suited for bug fixing. Whilst you say this is regardless of economic situations, that is a dangerous thing to ignore. Once the game is losing money, which it will if there are no new releases for half a year, DTG will be forced to cut costs of supporting TSW2. The easiest way is to get rid of the areas where they don't make money directly. The community team and the preservation crew for example, the teams that we the community are probably most interested in, will be among the first to get the axe.

    I know you mean well, and we all want to see issues and bugs resolved as quickly and permanently as possible but the idea that DTG can simply hold off on content releases that sustain their company to do nothing but bug fixes is a fantasy. The long term implications could easily end up making the game worse, no more community streams to show us what is happening in the game, no more community managers to give us players a voice, no more long term support of existing content and jobs will be lost.

    Yes DTG need to improve their bug finding, fixing and testing, but it being their sole focus for half a year will cause far bigger problems down the line for the game and the company.
     
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  11. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Spot on!

    I often just turn on the streams on the side (without even looking) while I'm playing computer games or doing something else, because I just like listening to them. There's always something to learn or laugh about, sometimes a bit of drama (when Matt has to apologise again).

    I wouldn't have to watch the roadmap streams either... I can read up on that in 5 minutes. But I love listening to Adam & Sam or Adam & Matt or Adam & Nat. I think they could talk about cooking too, I wouldn't care. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
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  12. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, to be honest, most of the time I'm just watching the streams because they're entertaining to watch, all things considered it's quite refreshing to see game devs simply enjoying playing their game.
     
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  13. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    You are right.

    But they have to do something. At the moment I have the impression that DTG are slowly slipping from "acting" to "reacting". There are so many little fires burning - you don't know where to put them out first.

    At the very least, they have to manage to push through the preservation crew updates in a timely manner, so that we can all stand on common ground again. For example, I have completely lost track of whether a problem/bug is new or has already been fixed by Adam's team (but not yet released).

    I am worried that things slowly growing over their heads. The result would be frustrated, overworked staff, more pressure, stress, burnout and even more bugs...
     
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  14. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Especially Matt's enthusiasm is simply inspiring. He lives for the game.

    (Sometimes that is more important to him than his health.)
     
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  15. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    The main problem I think is they've got into the unfortunate situation of having a number of significant issues to resolve:

    The Xbox sound problems which are requiring the entire sound systems to be rebuilt for Xbox which is a massive task.

    The the PlayStation problems with the DLC and Achievement limits which are requiring a lot of back and forth between DTG and Sony working towards a resolution.

    On top of that you have the memory limitations, which are especially prevalent on the older consoles and requires a massive undertaking refining the whole game and individual routes to make it more memory efficient.

    That is of course not forgetting that the 3rd parties have probably needed to work closer with DTG on their products as there have sadly been a fair amount of disappointment with the quality of 3rd party products compared with DTG's own work.

    Having to juggle a of these issues alongside bug fixing can't be an easy task. However, once the Xbox sounds are sorted, that should be that particular issue solved permanently, the PlayStation problems will either be solved with a permanent solution or a temporary one which can be repeated. The memory refinements meanwhile are going to be ongoing but will improve the user experience a small amount with each improvement and could solve some other issues along the way. The situation with 3rd parties meanwhile should be improving with more direct lines of communication to the DTG developers working in particular with the preservation crew.

    Hopefully once these issues are resolved, which we can see they are getting to, DTG can focus more specifically on individual bugs and issues.

    That being said there is clearly an obvious bottleneck for all releases, content or fixes which is the testing phase, how that can be solved, I do not know, but hopefully DTG can find a more efficient manner in which to test so we can see fixes released as quickly as possible.
     
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  16. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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  17. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Good point about the XBox and PS issues. Just as you have said, a good portion of their team probably has their hands full with them. I don't know if the XBox sound issue is being worked on, but we know the PS trophy matter and the memory optimalization is.

    Then there is also work being done to steam. So they clearky have plenty of work. But we all wish they could allocate more people to bug fixing and other smaller route polishing tasks.
     
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  18. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully once the main issues are dealt with they can get back on track with bug fixing
     
  19. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and I hope that his current enforced absence will allow him to rest and especially to think about himself and his family.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's rather interesting. Now, admittedly this includes fishing, TSC and whatever flight business there is, it's not just TSW, but it is at least attention-getting (with the caveat that these are year-on-year figures with no context) that DTG realized an 80% rise in profits on just a 25% rise in revenue. Now, a bit of perspective: that's 17% profit, certainly not bad at all (though not exactly Daddy Warbucks-land either); but coming off a 2020 with a pretty dismal £648k in profits on £15.9M revenue or just 4%.

    Perhaps as encouraging as anything is the 13% increase in staffing, because it strikes me that many of TSW's problems can one way or another be traced to undermanning, whether it's not enough available dev-hours to complete Track 3 on SH, to not having enough QA testers.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As a minimum the QA need to ensure the services and scenarios selected for Journey Mode work 100% and can be finished in order to progress, otherwise the concept is pointless if you get stuck and can't advance.
     
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  22. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It may not be fiscally viable, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to criticise it. I am a consumer and therefore I will look at it through a consumer's lens, which is that £24.99 in 2017 got me more for my money than £24.99 now.
    £11.49 for locos and £24.99 for routes is already a hard sell. £22.99 for locos and £59.99 for routes is so high I wouldn't even consider it, in the same way that Macs are very good computers, but very hard sells at full price (although them being 'more expensive' is debatable, but I digress).

    Indeed, the AP Class 411 is stunning and possibly the best DLC ever made for TS, but the price makes it a 'never ever' buy. Then again, AP also charges way too much for content that isn't stunning, and that's where problems start to appear.
    I'm no Alan Sugar, but that does seems like quite a small profit margin, even if it is a big increase. It might get better next year, but when Matt P said that losing a DLC could be a massive loss for the company, I can see what he meant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I agree Doom. Never touched Wherry Lines when AP were selling it at something outrageous. When it inevitably arrived on Steam I waited for a sale and picked it up cheap. It’s a nice enough route but can’t say I’m sorry I waited. I have the same view about flight sims. Go to Avsim or FS dot com and people are positively drooling over the possibility of paying PMDG over £100 for their 737 if/when it releases. You gotta be kidding! No way, Jose. Besides the wife would brain me!
     
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  24. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    How have you managed to come up with these figures? They are way off the real figures for the year ending 31st March 2020. I think you’ve worked backwards using the percentage increases and you can’t use percentages that way.
     
  25. Veryfatbloke

    Veryfatbloke Member

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    Those are close to the figures for the year ending 31st March 2019.
    Y/E 31st March 2020
    Gross income £18.015M
    Net profit £1.995M

    As a general rule 10% is considered to be an average net profit and 20% a good net profit.
     
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  26. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats why i suggest an "advanced Range"

    Based on the fact many people have fun with tsw in a different way of playing style, as somebody interested in "features" amount as many as possible, i think the prices are rather cheap. And for somebody just cares about driving without animated brake calipers and all that, the price as it is now would be ok.

    So to cover the gap, if DTG decides to develop a loco DLC, there could be following Way to sell them, based on the fact that the AI Engine uses simplyfied physics anyway, so it wont be affected.:

    1) For Locos coming new with a route, they could sell the basic version with the Route, and for people are interessted in advance features of the loco, an "ADV Payware Upgrade" would upgrade the loco.

    2) For Locos coming as DLC, there would be a "Basic DLC", and a "ADV Dlc". So people want enjoy the advanced features need to pay more.

    Both Basic and ADV would share same layers, same AI physics etc, but it offers a way to satisfy a high variety of customers, based with their playing style.


    This way we could finally get rid of the discussions, why is this and that not implemented as feature.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
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  27. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, most of the TS Pro range for Train Simulator (by DTG) have roughly the same functionality as 'basic' TSW trains.

    Remember that advanced features are not only difficult to make (there's a reason Ebula has never been implemented), but can also be a legal issue for DTG. Amtrak specifically require DTG to 'dumb down' the experience for their trains, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if other companies have similar fears.
     
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  28. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    It's the same with SNCF and their TGV
     
  29. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah perish the thought that someone could steal a train and then say they learned how to do it from TSW :D
     
  30. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, teaching someone exactly how to operate a train will make them much more able to steal one that missing out key steps. It's not a crazy rule.
     
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  31. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Since most preparation and static duties are not in tsw anyway, it would be difficult to get those trains moving.

    A diesel loco wont start in winter by pushing just 2 buttons in the cab. But for the game aspect, the tsw class 20 as example is the sweet mix of realism and not "too basic" in my opinion when it comes to modeled features outside the driving it self.

    But i wouldnt be surprised if there are legal terms involved. If there would be an incident with somebody "learned" the detailed procedure from a pc sim, the rail operator would be in hell of a trouble for giving the licence.
    And for sure this would lead to consequences.

    So i think its ok not every single thing is implemented.
     
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  32. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This has long been an urban legend in the flight sim scene. Even the best high fidelity PMDG or Level D add on for FS9 or FSX doesn’t really qualify you to land the 767 if both flight crew are incapacitated. For starters, there’s no pause button while you look at the manual or switch to external view to check the wheels are down!
     
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  33. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats true its not qualifying anybody to be a pilot (same as with train sims), but a 100 dollar pmdg 747 or 50 dollar a2a cessna is still a good price to get a real as possible experience. Usually the simulators on which pilots are trained have a price of 1 million+.
     
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  34. lmcpfc2014

    lmcpfc2014 Well-Known Member

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    My interest in this game is pretty much gone. The quality of routes is just so poor and there are too many excuses. I haven’t bought anything since the Class 465 because all the new routes are full of bugs and shortcuts like the wrong Dostos on Hamburg. I’m actually sick of the sight of Dostos now and they're on the next German route as well (although I will say the new route does look good in pictures). I don’t care if I have to wait longer for new routes but when we waited until September or October for a very delayed London Commuter to come out and then for it to be full of bugs, I do start to lose my patience with DTG. Not only that but I feel communication between DTG and us consumers has gotten way worse when it was good when the first roadmap came out.
    I hope the developers improve the game by adding more variety and quality to the next route, then maybe I’ll buy something and play the game more.
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    TBH, I think you have been oversold by the complaining on here. Brighton Mainline and Riesa-Dresden are outstanding routes, and aside from the now-fixed red light bug the criticisms are, in my view, overblown nitpicks.

    And you would be hard put to go anywhere in Germany today and not see dostos. It would be like complaining about "too many Silberlinge" in the 70s.
     
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  36. MrSouthernDriver

    MrSouthernDriver Well-Known Member

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    i think it goes like this....they take one step forward, and then just take 2 steps back then a step forward again, and then take 2 steps back, over and over and over again
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the arithmetic, which comes out as a wash. Definitely more forwards steps than backwards; Brighton is a marked improvement on SEHS, or for that matter the well-received East Coastway (just compare the iterations of Electrostar, if nothing else); and Dresden is the best German route to date, an upgrade over, say, the well-received München-Augsburg.

    (I note in passing that this is the PC forum; console users have genuine post-RH complaints)
     
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  38. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    The timetable on BML is outstanding perhaps, but the route itself is really not special. The absolute state of Reigate, holes in tunnels and the ground and large missing features (Haywards Heath footbridge for one) really take it away from 'outstanding'. Add in the recycled (and still broken) stock and it's a less than ideal package.
     
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  39. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’ve lost so much interest in TSW because of the lack of bugs fixes and updates, as well as the general feeling of most new content being recycled. TSW really needs its basic core bugs fixed and ironed out, too.

    The past 6 months have honestly felt like a mess. Rush Hour? More like a rush to push out buggy, questionable DLC.

    We’ve got fixes sitting, ready to be released, which were done several months ago. When are there finally going to be released?

    I can’t see anything changing and improving anytime soon as there’s just too much of a backlog.

    Until DTG get their act together, I’ll continue to only play TSW once or twice a week, for a maximum of an hour or so.
     
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  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention the missing lineside fencing in many places and the gap in the track at Redhill going off towards Reigate. Nevertheless it was a massive undertaking and the work which went into the timetable must have been a labour of love. That said, you can't actually use the full potential until they sort out the save game bug, which currently they seem unable or unwilling to spend any time on. Someone on the team with knowledge of the code base must have some idea as to why it fails to restore.

    And as regards the stock, well if I never see another Electrostar route it won't be soon enough! If I want British, stick with the classic routes and traction. Maybe I'm just an old fart but really can't understand the clamoring sometimes in the Suggestion forum for yet more modern stock...

    One of the reasons I'm enjoying SF Peninsula Corridor is the route being actually quite nice to drive and the two DLC locos are well put together and fun to operate. So there is good in the game but DTG need to focus first on the bugs, then the sweet spot with content to satisfy the user base.
     
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  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Which is a shame chap after the amount you've added for others. Understand your rationale though, my playtime is up and down depending on what happens.
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Thing is most of us probably play other games and not just train sims. I've mentioned Snowrunner before and quite often I'll turn aside to that for a few days, especially if I get a good run of tasks going. I've only been spending more time than usual in TSW this week due to buying all that DLC in the sale. It's nice to have a break and do something different from time to time.
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As I was saying......


    But, yes, the savegame bug - which is not at all a 2021 thing - DESPERATELY needs fixing (as well as one save file per route, not one for the game as a whole)
     
  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't played tsw2 in a while and frankly I can say my interest in this game has gone a bit down as well due to all of the issues with the game. I've been playing other games and I actually bought the Premium Deluxe Edition of Microsoft Flight Simulator a few days ago on sale for $95.99 and spent alot of time playing the game. I recently did a 8 hour flight from New York City to Rio De Janeiro on a Delta Airlines Boeing 737

    I'll still play tsw2 but probably only once a week to be honest until there are more bug fixes. There are better games that i can enjoy in the meantime that aren't riddled with bugs that are so clear as day
     
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  45. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’ve found myself buying new VR games. Picked up dirt 2 on the steam sale. That’s interesting
     
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  46. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    For me it’s not the bugs or incorrect details that are annoying, it’s the lack of variety in the current routes.
    There are currently too many similar emu’s with similar gameplay.

    That said train driving is a repetitive job with realistically less variety than the game provides.
    And it is my fault if the subtle joy of driving giant consists at walking pace through miles of repetitive scenery eludes me.

    Let’s hope the introduction of steam will inject new excitement into the game.
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. That's why I never got that excited over BML. In fact when I suggested a while back that DTG should concentrate on the diverse (in a train sense) and interesting routes and trains I got roundly flamed by the modern Electrostar and welded track brigade! :) The German routes while technically great all come with the broadly similar Dosto's and 42x EMU's which I struggle to see the difference between. Someone mentioned earlier the same issue would present with Silberlinge stock, but at least some of these were painted in the main line livery and you could get the odd UIC coach appear especially in the E train and definitely D train consists.
     
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  48. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’ll still make mods for the game, if the content interests me, however, I’m waiting on DTG to get their act together in scheduling out bug fixes and updates. Until they manage to do this, my gameplay time will be kept to a minimum.

    It isn’t acceptable to keep on pushing out DLCs after DLCs, and then making broken promises that fixes will be made post release. Several months have passed by and we only have the very bare minimum in fixes being released.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If they were to meet the Thrash and Clickety-Clack Club for a face-off on the concourse at Euston who would make the most noise? Of course they would turn up late as well because they have to wait for the driver to unlock the doors while we could jump off the train while it’s still moving. On the other hand they could stream the event live online while we would have to buy a VHS of it by mail order a week or more later.

    For more diversity you do need to go back in time but steam is coming soon, so that may be an opportunity for a supporting cast of early diesels and interesting routes alongside the steamers. I am actually more concerned with crashes and unplayable content at the moment but one thing that’s going to keep my interest in the long term is the differences between the DLC not just more of the same. That needs to be a good mix of old and new and I dare say more countries too.
     
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  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I have high hopes for Spirit Of Steam especially the opportunity for more complex routes with the possibility of local trip freight etc. Definitely scope for BR "Green" and Custard/Cream transition to diesel.

    Just hope I'm not disappointed.
     
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