Dear Dtg. (reported Issues Discussion)

I don't want to be too harsh, but where is the effort from DTG? Players provide countless bug reports and error notifications, and DTG just ignores them. Sure, the 425 from Bremen was fixed, but that's about it—80%+ is still terrible. If a company has no interest in certain content, then they should just leave it alone. I found and reported numerous bugs months ago, and what has DTG done? Nothing. I understand that there's a lot to do and many issues aren't easy to fix, but we as players pay a lot of money for garbage. Whether it's missing details, incorrect sounds, errors in 3D models, or display issues, I'm personally fed up. If nothing changes, I'll have to find other options. It just can't continue with DTG's lack of enthusiasm. Leave the content if you can't do it properly. I also understand that finances play a role, but simply throwing products on the market and promoting them heavily even though they don't work is questionable. I don't want to insult anyone personally or tarnish DTG's reputation—sure, there are good things like the 193/143/146 ÖBB1116, but the rest is just LOVE.

Additionally, the fact that there are updates missing or mocking customers cannot be excused.

 

lol don’t think about rivet that’ll blow your mind

 

Well the problem is that once you've reported an issue, you can't actually track the status because it will get resolved once it's been logged by DTG. On their site DTG stated that it is not possible to track your bug report. Solved bugs will be reported via their community channels, so you've to look for yourself. For me that can be a little bit annoying because you never now if a reported bug will be fixed at all.

It would actually be nice if there was some kind of dashboard provided by DTG just for the most common bugs because I think many things are 'known issues' en reported earlier by other community members. Then you at least now what the status is. For new bug that are not reported earlier DTG could send that you're bug is unique and not reported earlier and so won't be shown on the dashboard.

Greetz Stefan

 

Yes, that may be, but now the DE update is out should actually be fixed everything that has been reported over the years. dtg is just nine times fully responsible for what they do to their products./the update for uk/DE/us was announced big.

 

Rivet/TSG/etc Are not meant by the post I hold DTG responsible.

 

No bug is guaranteed fixed regardless of it’s logged.

it’s meant to go on a list what is in reality ends up being like a pic and mix bag of sweets, they pick some and release it in an update the rest stay on the shelf.

 

Be careful what you ask for! I've lost count on how many updates have broken more than they actually fixed.

DTG Tap Dance - 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards™

 

But in that case DTG don’t create the content or are responsible for that content being updated…..

 

Well DTG is responsible for what they publish if they themselves have no time or no desire to check and test the evening products before they are read over, then the pub must take the blame/Just like with updates the pub, this must ensure that updates are carried out properly and that updates are made at all

 

If this is okay, I'll write down your message.

And yes, that's true for the 50/50 with the 193 as an example, almost everything works now
.

 

there are many bugs from old and new ones sometimes pop when new release/update comes, as happened also yesterday with the dawn of 218 - door issues not only with that loco, but also some other ones, sometimes inverted controls... and other minor issues... some ppl dont notice in the heat of a run, some ppl notice... sometimes it is small BS like weird keyboard sensitivity on certain trains/locos, sometimes it is more

I assume that they cant just sift through all threads to gather everything, so sometimes sth falls through their vigil, I guess

 

Interesting response Alex and, while not wanting to go into specifics, the one which really sticks out for me at the moment is the outstanding Save issue, whereby you can't directly take over a subsequent train and save it, as the objective data doesn't save or load when you resume. It is (for me) such a huge bug as it really defeats the point of having an all day timetable where you can progress through a full shift working different trains etc. etc.

Yet it barely gets acknowledged let alone an indication as to whether it's being worked on, a solution is eluding the coder(s) or has simply been swept under the rug.

 

Hello Alex,

First of all, thank you for your response. I appreciate the reply and want to show my understanding of the complexities involved. However, a solution still needs to be found. You can't just delay these issues for years and expect the community to simply move on or for the problems to disappear.

It's important to find a solution that satisfies all parties involved. I understand it might cost time and money, but ignoring problems is not a solution either. I appreciate that critical issues like the passenger information system (FIS) are being prioritized, but there are other issues, like sound updates or specific details, that remain unaddressed and are extremely frustrating.

For example, the DB BR 187 has been practically unusable for years. I have a product that I can't use because it doesn't work properly. A solution needs to be found for these kinds of issues as well.

 

or the missing panto on all 442 services headed from Aachen tho this can be kind of circumvented - if you know what time your chosen service starts, you can spawn on foot, wait a bit and take over that service... in that case both pantos are there correctly, for some reason... tho I am not sure if at the end you get medal for the run

 

No problem, I like to help where I can and if I should be honest, I don't care, the main thing is that one thing works, e.g. the 442, it would be enough for me personally if only a proper one works. For example, the one from kwg or the one from Dresden..

 

There are still bugs which were reported in 2017 (for sandpatchgrade).

As a former tsc "loyal buyer" i know dtg too well and download just the mods, which improve 90% of tsw with route enhancements or sound mods. Exponential immersion booster!

Now TSW is beyond a point where a preservation crew can fix all the bugs. Even just for essential bugs the scope is too massive.

 

I think it is really key for a better climate within the community to make your ongoing work behind the curtains more transparent to the public.

Of course, someone might say other companies wouldn't do the same either. However, something like this is especially important for the franchise Train Sim World is, where A. a lot of bugs happening and players within the community are so mad about the game for it and B. the franchise do not has that many players like for example a triple A title and a loss of a portion wouldn't be as vulnerable.

Dovetail really needs to find a way to be more transparent to regain faith and trust of those, who already abandoned or yet are about to abandon the franchise, simply because the loss of them could be fatal sooner or later for the entire franchise and the company.

Maybe this should be part of the upgraded bug tracker. A way to see all issues listed transparent in a clear view, easy to track and easy to be aware of what still needs to be done/is requested more popular than other bugs.

For popularity reasons, there maybe should be something like the "I have the same question" button in the Microsoft forums, where a user can just engage in the same way like a like or helpful vote here. A "I want this fixed" button, and dependent upon the amount of engagement, everyone could see the popularity immediately at the votes.

Raised this concern before, but never really got an answer. I know that you have a certain number of developers available which only can spend their time fixing bugs of highest priority, but what if Dovetail - and this might be a but easier to suggest than to do but still - would hire more developers or provide something in exchange for volunteer developers (maybe content keys)?

Maybe even a program of novice programmers (coming from university or college) or having certificates of any other IT school, where new developers in topic Unreal Engine could be challenged to solve some bugs of less priority, getting a certificate or something like that for their future job applications in exchange.

I mean something like that could maybe help to solve a big chunk of bugs raised by the community, the yet in charge developers however simply can't focus on because they don't have the ressources to do so.

I can see one big advantage when releasing larger patches at some defined intervals rather than releasing minor patches frequently (like it happened for most of the half year with the (almost) weekly updates) - QA and Beta-testing. If you release a larger core patch at some defined intervals, Beta testers can test the patch thoroughly and developers have the necessary time to adapt/fix things.

However, if you release a large patch with a lot of fixes, it also means higher potential that some of these fixes might cause a major problem anywhere else.

I personally think that the larger core patch is the right thing nonetheless, because you can focus on the release, QA and testing just of one large patch, while if you do more regular (weekly) ones, not only beta testing all those separately but also again fixing problems caused by a fix again steals more time and ressourceof DTG on the long term.

 

As I've suggested elsewhere, why not make the first post in the official Feedback thread for each release a regularly-updated list of known issues, and what progress is being made on them?

 

Yup. This one totally stops me from playing anything that might take over an hour and a half… if I can’t fit it into one session, I can’t play it. Rules out quite a few good services.

 

Just to clarify, the first player service generally saves fine, no matter how many times. It's when you finish that, return to free roam and either pick up the next leg of the consist you were working or move to a different consist, start driving that then save and try to load that objective data fails to restore. But it seems to have gone in the "too difficult" category as it was certainly present in TSW3 maybe even goes back to TSW2 or earlier.

 

open to public https://dovetailgames.freshdesk.com/support/home if report tickets had been accepted / passed
so everyone can see if anyone had the same issus , help to providing more informations and check progress ?

 

We used to have a solution - important bugs were tracked on the Roadmap... when it was for the community and not a PR thing... if anything was dropped, it couldn't be swept under the rug without explanation.

 

I would be interested in participating in such a program, if it existed.

I have a radical idea from my other train game: OpenTTD. This transport tycoon game is a free and open-source remake of Chris Sawyer's 1994 title Transport Tycoon Deluxe. The first open-source release was in 2004, so the game is now 20 years old -- and it's still in active development with daily commits on GitHub and one major release per year.

The C++ source code of OpenTTD is freely available on GitHub, and anyone can contribute. A small team of maintainers (including myself) work with contributors to review code, request changes, and finally approve and merge changes to the codebase. Most contributors set out to scratch a personal itch: a bug that annoys them, a feature they want to use, etc. Those of us who become developers start the same way and then discover that writing code is often more rewarding than playing the game.

Content like vehicles, houses, industry sets, etc., are not added to the core game. Instead, these are created by community members as mods (NewGRFs and Game Scripts) and distributed by an in-game content service run by OpenTTD. These are generally but not necessarily free and open-source, because they are not controlled by OpenTTD -- it's more like Steam Workshop mods.

I could see an adapted version of this model applied to a train simulator game: the core is open-source but the routes are paid DLC, published through DTG as in the current system. Most development is done by paid DTG employees, but volunteer contributors can help out as they please.

Obviously this would be a major strategy shift and may not even be technically possible for TSW, but perhaps a hybrid model would be possible where volunteer contributors could sign up and sign an NDA for access to source code and the internal version control/code review system.

 

I've been thinking about something like the partial open-sourcing as a potential solution for TSW. There is so much passion in our hobby from all involved but DTG don't seem to have the resources to maintain the standards the community desire with the only options being to report bugs, then complain when it takes years or never to get bugs fixed that are so severe that players actually don't play the affected routes. I'm personally frustrated with the two Scottish Rivet routes, have reported bugs over there but I would much rather actively help out, even test updates before they are released as both ScotRail eXpress and Fife Circle have ended up more broken after their first rushed updates.

I would welcome the opportunity to help out.

 

I don’t think open source is the answer. TSW has too many dependencies in the core that break other things.

In my view the biggest change they could make is an Open Beta for core changes. We end up being the testers anyway as DTG doesn’t have the capacity to test every service in every route. By the time we get to see it, it’s too late, and we’re stuck waiting for the next patch. An open Beta would at least be optional to install until it is released as final. From outside, it appears to have worked quite well for TSC.

The downside to this for DTG is that it’s quite hard to manage. People will report things that they think are wrong because they don’t have the correct answer and people will also use it to report missing features that have never been promised. However with proper management it can work extremely well and would increase quality. It can also calm the ‘Why didn’t QA / Beta Testers find that, it’s obvious’. Talk. People can start to realise how time consuming and difficult QA can be when they get a taste of it themselves.

It wouldn’t eliminate core bugs completely. But for things like red lights and broken services, it would help a lot in my opinion.

Personally as I work in QA, I don’t want to take part. But I bet there are many that would.

 

Similar to how tml does it

 

Firstly there's always lots of talk about Beta Testing (internal and external) and team testing internally, then we receive products that clearly don't match that message. The community have spoken about issues that have been seen in both DTG in-house produced content (before release), and third party content, but then DTG still go ahead and give the green light and publish it.

Having submitted multiple tickets for "bugs" as DTG like to call them many now are in limbo (for me) being given the "internal team investigating, TICKET CLOSED" status, most I could point out as not fixed.

I definately agree that a customer facing tickets page showing open/closed/status would be useful, it might also help to avoid a proportion of repeat tickets as the well informed members of the community who regularly provide bug reports can see if something is already in the system.

Maybe the Head of QC would like to make a statement, rather than the Community Team, who don't have all the answers, because it's not their job.

 

DTG does have the capacity, its a not a two man band we are talking about here. Someone who has control is sloppy and happy to ship unfinished products and then place blame with someone else. Someone is accountable, that's how business works. If you allow poor standards then they breed.

 

Ok, your opinion about capacity, totally wrong in mine. Add up the time it takes to regression test every service in every route for both timetable and journey, because they behave differently for some reason. Then factor in retesting when something fails. It’s going to be a huge amount of time. Not financially worth their time and without reliable automation likely impossible.

Testing / QA is always a balance between Time v’s Quality v’s Cost. A public beta for core releases gives far more scope for testing than DTG will ever currently achieve.

Agree about the person in control. Some releases should have never made it out of the door. TSW4 was never ready. TSW5 whenever it comes will be the same.

 

Another long standing bug that ought to be nailed down is passenger doors opening at station stops off the platform. Regardless of how the particular traction or coaching stock does it in real life (SDO, common sense don’t open mechanical doors off the platform), it just looks wrong. In TSC doors remain closed when not at the defined passenger area of the platform. I accept it might not be possible to back date to older routes but, going forward, why is this not towards the top of things “we must really look at fixing “ section, on DTG’s coding whiteboard?

 

Agreed and just to add to that, the annoyance of ALL doors opening and closing at once! How about some random opening and closing of doors, AP did it on TSC with their MK2 stock, was lovely hearing some random slam door sounds.

 

Getting rid of the Preservation crew was probably the biggest issue TSW will ever have! They would have been the ideal team to use for looking into and fixing the major bugs so that we didn't have to wait almost 5 years for fixes for some of them (Trunks Service scenario, broken since TSW2!) If DTG had kept the Preservation team and utilised them for bug fixing these forums probably wouldn't be full of pissed of users who find they're spending their hard earned cash on a DLC that's fraught with issues and those issues then take years to get sorted out!

 

As well as AI trains not reopening then closing the doors when it takes over, after you've already closed the doors.

 

Wasn't that, to an extent, functional on some route already? Boston, I think?

 

On Boston, they solved it by half the time the doors never open anyway! But I was running Maintalbahn the other evening with a 612 formation. Stopped with the rear of train off the platform and the doors still opened on that section.

 

Saving still is absolutely broken to this day, especially starting with TSW 4 and it's Free Roam feature. Spawning is completely broken after loading a save game (EVERY component that can be interacted with including those that depend on certain states on other components, ex.: brakes with a brake key, etc. ARE ACTIVE as if someone is pushing all the buttons and more at the same time which makes it IMPOSSIBLE to use certain components like brakes with a brake key because the BRAKES are at 100% while the brake key is off), the Free Roam UI is often missing after loading a save game, certain locos are acting weird after loading a save game (like the traction/power not working anymore after coming to a halt on the 218, which can only be fixed by setting the reverser to off, then forward again.), etc. etc.

There are so many issues besides saving/loading that haven't been fixed since TSW 2 (!).

Why is this (still) the case? My personal theory/reason is:

• Everything is still built upon the very first version of TSW (CSX: Heavy Haul aka TSW 2020). Usually, this is totally okay and shouldn't be a problem UNLESS you make it a problem. How can you make it a problem though? By making the fundamentals and content rock solid, without planning or thinking about the future - or by planning and thinking that there won't be any major changes at all. What does ALL of that mean though? I'll try to keep this as simple and short as possible.
  You start with a game project. You probably have a plan for it, and you probably have a future plan for it. You develop the game, content and so on. You release the game to the public. But what now? What is the plan now? That depends on what you planned at the beginning of the development. For example, you can make a game that is not dynamically changing over the course of time - your content like assets, objects and so on are static baked into the game, you can easily change something without something depending on it breaking, or breaking in a way that is extremely easy to fix. Again, trying to put it into a few sentences:
  You do not plan on adding, changing and/or removing content dynamically from the game via an user or yourself. You do not have to worry about how certain parts of the game will act/behave when something changes that uses or requires it. You do not plan on adding/providing dynamically available content (DLCs) for it now or in the future, or do plan to but in a very small and limited manner. That's how it feels for me. TSW wasn't originally ment to be that big and dynamic. It's like they really did not expect to gain a large player base that actively and continuosly play it. What I personally think is that DTG wasn't planning or expecting on TSW being the true successor/true replacement to TSC. They didn't plan on making big, modular routes with modular locos (content that may or may not be owned by the user playing the game) - so they didn't make the game and content modular (I mean it is somewhat modular but it's extremely strict and unpredictable). Other games like Zusi, Omsi and co. separated the content from the game as much as possible. How did they do that? Why does it work so well? Because they planned it from the very beginning. It's basically their philosophy that the game is (nearly) completely based on content that can be created, edited, added, removed and so on by anyone that wants to do it.
  
  Sorry if this is hard to read and understand, I have linguistic issues, problems with forming and writing what I think and what I mean, like finding and forming sentences that are exactly what I mean without having to explain 1000s of things first.

 

The article about 380 definitely brought up another point - AI changing "cabs"... why can't it do that after all the time? Timetables are a mess because of that ever since TSW2, where you sometimes have one-minute services because you need to change a cab and back up 500 meters. This also artificially inflates the number of services (which, tbf might be something they WANT) and makes depot services extremely annoying, as you have to go through the end-of-service results every step of the way, return to free-roam and probably wait, because the next part starting time has been set later. I think it was on BML where some services were 4-part "long" because of this.

 

Hi, is there a list of known current bugs that players can look at and also add to if required? If we can put all the glitches and known bugs on the table for everyone to see, then dtg or whoever can pick and tick off what is going to get addressed in the next patch?

 

Linke Rheinstrecke.