"denied, Your Train Appears Off Path" - Red Signal

Hi guys,

So I'm really new to the game and I'm currently cruising through the Bakerloo scenario's. In my last one I overshot at Wembley station, so I reserved a few yards. However the signal already turned red.

Whenever I tried to contact the signaler, no matter if I was 4yrds or 12 from the signal, it just kept saying "Denied, your train appears off path.". What is that all about? In the end I failed the scenario because getting closer then 2/3 yrds trigged a scenario failed for crossing a red light.

 

You gotta restart the service. Sorry mate.

 

How can you be off path though? Is that because being behind that red light is outside of the scenario script and thus it doesn't know how to respond?

 

When you passed the light the first time it tripped to red, which is what it should have done.
When you reversed back the signal isn't scripted to clear automatically, nor is there means to do so in game (that I know of)
So then you're stuck and end up SPADding or quitting.

Not sure if DTG will class it as a bug and try to fix it or if it's an intentional thing, because in real life you don't just "back up the train" if you overrun...

 

I've seen this in other routes too, SPG for instance. As far as I know there is no cure other than a restart I'm afraid. What triggers it seems entirely random.

 

It's always been in TSW that if you run past a signal, it goes red. You then cannot reverse back behind that signal.

 

I thought that is why we have a 'contact signaller' button. What is that used for if it isn't for clearing red signals?

 

Usually when I get that message I'm supposed to be moving in the other direction.
Red just means a forced exit.
Check the direction indicator.

 

I know for certain that I was going in the right direction.

 

It's used to request passage through a red signal. That's it. The TSW dispatcher can't handle you reversing past a signal when it's not expecting you to. Also possibly why it doesn't clear an instruction when you completely miss a station.

 

The moral of this tale is: save frequently!

 

In TSx you'd contact the signaller for issues such as a broken or malfunctioning signal, entering or dispatching from yards, entering sections already occupied (such as joining services together) etc etc
In TSW there is the "glitch" that you can't clear an overrun signal by reversing past, but it's not really a glitch because you shouldn't have passed the signal in the first place.

 

TSW signaller is not capable of changing signals. You just have green which turns red auto when you pass it. So when you reverse behind that signal it should turn green automaticaly but if not it should let you pass if contact the signaller. It should be so simple to implement and I am affraid even to think how they will implement more complex signaling operations. But they are not committing to any improvements regarding signaling. So how on earth it is hard to programme the game to know if one, two or three sections ahead are clear of trains and than the signals to act accordingly. Very important in train simulation is signalling.

 

Actually, it is like that in reality (in Germany). Pure block signals without junctions to the next main signal usually change automatically, if a path is already reaching that signal. At the start somewhere stands a manual signalling.

If a train overshoots the station and hence passes the signal, you cannot simply reverse. Especially, if your rear already passed that signal. In that case another train behind you might already entering that segment.
Mostly, you will continue to the next scheduled stop and say a big sorry to the passengers. I experienced this once in an ICE which overshot Solingen Hbf. It stopped behind the station, probably a conversation happened with the dispatcher, and the train continued to Wuppertal Hbf with passengers having to take a local train back to Solingen.

Passengers with target Solingen got delayed big by this (roughly 1h) but the other passengers in the train could continue without a lot of delay. Reversing wouldn't happen from the front cab. The engineer would have to go the other end of the train, power it properly up, drive back to the station, then power down again, etc. Time loss certainly 15-20 minutes. Following trains would have to be re-routed or would get delays as well.

 

That would be all fine and dandy if only TSW would realize that the player did indeed overshoot the platform, and allow them the option to just continue to the next station. But it doesn't, and that right there is a bit of an oversight.
As a player you have to complete that objective (stopping at a station) before proceeding to the next objective. The dispatcher in TSW is arguably rudimentary, and frankly its a bit disappointing that the whole entire session ends as soon as you pass a red signal. Its even more frustrating when you learn that it doesn't really give you any other option, and basically forces you to fail the scenario if you backtrack past a signal.

 

What you can try is, drive back, hit the SPAD and then load the last checkpoint. In that case no need to redo the whole service, but it depends if the save function is working good enough.

 

Becareful, as the "last checkpoint" does not work in Journey mode, in fact the option is not even present in Journey mode

 

The option to Save works in Journey mode and then (if necessary, which it often is for me ) you can restart from the last saved point, and then continue the 'journey'. On local runs, I usually try to save at each station.

 

Last checkpoint is available in Journeys as well, but not for the starting location and not if you set auto start for journeys.For the starting location it only offers to restart the game.Later in your gameplay it works as well as the save function works (which is not great). I used this several times at ECW and it works.

 

It's true that autostart takes you back to the beginning of your last uncompleted journey, but then you just need ESC and take the option back to the main menu, where you can select the last saved point. I use this a lot, and it works.

 

I think we'd all benefit if there's a main settings option called Signals On-Off. Or a 'God Mode' On-Off.
More for the pure gamers part of us ...

Programming trains & train routes in Il2 Sturmovik is actually far more fun. Alas you cant drive them in that game. Here they push one another steam pouring out of their pores. They even shoot each other if you assign them to different parties:

 

This problem can be sometimes solved if the route contains manual switches. In that case you can simply set another route by moving the switches and set again the orignal route afterwards. That will generate a new permission to drive and clear signals after you reversed. If route is automated by dispatcher then you most likely need to restart the scenario, as another AI train may have taken the route already.

Cheers

 

I just overshot a station on rapid transit that had a signal at the end. If you train is long enough you can reverse back to the platform but ensure that the train does not completely pass the signal again and you wont fail just tried it myself

 

Real life, too. As soon as you enter a block, it's occupied, and the guard signal changes accordingly.

 

I get what you're saying about contacting the signal operator to say you've passed a red, but in-game the operator is limited and passing a red basically breaks the AI. They would end up crashing into you or blocking the line. You don't want to drive for one hour to only get stuck because you ran a red and messed up the signals.

 

It's pretty much only used in scenarios that require it and services where you need to move into an occupied block to couple to a train, such as a banking service or one of the rescue services in Peninsula Corridor. I don't see not having the ability to back up to a station you missed as being that unfair. In real life, as others have mentioned, it isn't an option, and missing a station should not happen if you are paying attention. Additionally, if you do miss a station as a real driver, you will be in serious trouble and may not be driving again for a little bit. So being unable to complete the service when that happens is only fair, but it would be better if it was an auto-fail like SPADs rather than leaving you to quit out.

 

Just to add, I have read that if a real driver goes past a red then he cannot stop, he must miss that station and continue to the next station. I suppose it's a bit like sitting in your car in the middle to a traffic junction, you can't just sit there after a red because the opposite traffic has been given a green.

When you going through a yellow you need to slow down to the yellow speed limit depending on country and at that speed you would have no issue stopping at a red.
But at times the stop marker is too close to the red and people go trough the red.
You can always save when you see a red, even though the save game feature is broken

 

I did this last night CL31 rescue scenario, I was entering Lackenby yard & passed my stop point which was right in front of a signal, couldn't go back, scenario wanted me to stop at that exact point! Restart time.

 

Stop at markers offer absolutely no mercy for undershooting, I think if any part of the train is on top of it, it's fine (so you can overshoot by about 50m but not undershoot by 50m). IMHO it should be a range (ie it completes if any part of the train is within 10m for example). As demonstrated in the Raildriver stream last year, the AI drivers (unlike in TS1) drive on sight so it shouldn't really effect the AI if you're undershooting a bit. Matt showed in the (now deleted) editor stream for TSW2020 (back when a public editor was still on the table) that a train can park in a platform at any place along said platform and then an AI can couple up it. I don't see why these stop markers need to be so strict.

 

Basically yes. If you overshoot a station and have passed a signal during your overshoot, just back up until at least one door is on the platform - keeping the front of your train beyond the signal and then everything will work fine. It means all your passengers have to walk to the back of the train to get off but they'll live .

 

I think you have misunderstood what the OP is saying. He's talking about passing a red then the game will exit to the menu. Not over-shooting a platform and reversing.

 

OP literally stated that their problem was overshooting Wembley, and that as soon as the cab passes a green signal, it became red, so when they backed into the station, they could not pass the signal that was now red without failing the service. THAT's when the SPAD happened.

 

I beg to differ - the original text of the question in the first post in this thread from BinaryRun is "... In my last one I overshot at Wembley station, so I reserved a few yards. However the signal already turned red..." and the secondary part of the problem is that if they reverse back into the station then get going again they pass a signal and SPAD when they try to move again so I gave them a tactic to be able to do what they need to do in order to complete a scenario or service.

Paul

 

Oh ok, then I misunderstood it, my bad, sorry.

 

In my opinion you should not get dumped out the game for a spad, yes you should have to contact the signaller before proceeding and then made to proceed at a reduced speed if the line is clear until the next signal where you then have to contact the signaller again before proceeding, dumping you out of the game and therefore quitting the service is unrealistic it doesn't happen in real life and this is supposed to be a simulation which is supposed to reflect real life. In TS2021 you get the choice in the options whether a spad end the service or not they could do the same in TSW 2 too, just an idea.

 

You should at the menu get your written warning & told to pay attention or get fired next time

 

Dumping you out of the service isn't realistic no
In real life you'd have to explain to your boss how you failed at your job and put REAL lives at risk. Maybe some drugs test upcoming as well
How do you suppose TSW recreate that?

 

In real life if you caught it in time (e.g. station over-run) where you didn't foul another line you'd be up for a hearing, a drug & alcohol test, retraining and potentially demotion. If you didn't catch it in time you're probably dead, or if you're unlucky enough to survive standing in front of the coroner/magistrate explaining your contribution to the deaths of people on both trains.

I don't like that it dumps me out of the game, but I do respect that it needs to do something so you don't make light of it.

Paul

 

in typical bloody fashion, these bugs NEVER happen early on. of c it happens 90 minutes into the bloody scenario on CRR. so unbelievably annoying. pure inept design.

 

Hmm! Just a thought..
When you you go passed a signal it turns red, and the signal controlling the section you have just left turns to yellow.
So if you reverse back you enter the now yellow controlled section. So I wonder if a train following you will plough into the back of you?
I may have to give this a try!

 

Not quite. As you are passing a signal, it turns red, but the one behind it stays red until your train has completely cleared the block.

 

Ahh yes, of course. I should have known that. Cheers Solicitr

 

This also happens on East Coastway if you overshoot Falmer Eastbound. Perhaps there should be an option to continue to the next station without having to stop at Falmer if you overshoot it

 

This is the only option that makes sense and is realistic - to continue to your next stop (as in TSC and RL). Going backwards is forbidden unless it's part of your dispatched path (for coupling up e.g.).

The issue with going backwards is there could already be a train entering the previous block - or risk a SPAD if the previous signal should turn red because of you and the following train is too fast to stop. So it makes no sense trying to implement such a function because it could seriously mess up the timetable.

 

I agree the same It happened to me when I accidentally passed through a station and I back into a station and it says denied. Your train appears to be off path I hope they fix it

 

No bug so no fix - try to stop before the signal . In real life you would be put out of service instantly.

Programming a dispatcher is hard enough as it is - then adding "workarounds" or "fixes" for situation whens the player breaks the only real important rule (Stop before Red or lives are at risk) is a waste of effort.

 

Definitely agree it’s not a fix it needs when you miss stops, I think the upgrade it needs is to recognise missed stops and allow you to carry onto the next, should also probably automatically deduct the player down to at least silver medal for the case.

 

The only "fix" they could instigate in this would be a dispatcher contact method to say "I've bombed through a station, do I continue?"
This is similar to what happens in the UK in real life (given operators are obliged to assist any passengers who have just missed their station to get to that station) but again, is an amount of work just to mitigate a player's lack of attention

 

All that happens in MSTS and TSC, also SimRail from my limited experience, is after a couple of miles beyond the missed call it disappears and replaced by the next objective or station stop. The disciplinary action should be resetting your AP to zero but otherwise carry on. Maybe at the end of the run display a tea and biscuits graphic at the debriefing, though that would require an injection of humour into the otherwise dour proceedings.

 

I like the idea. The scripted TSW dispatcher is dumb AND dull.