Did Dtg Bite More Than It Can Chew?

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Birita, Oct 7, 2021.

  1. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    I mean...they cant even fix some simple issues (saving settings like motion blur)...and yet tried to release a route that has more than 1000 services...who needs that high number anyway...

    Situation only getting worse and worse...
     
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  2. kevin.charb81

    kevin.charb81 Well-Known Member

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    Without a doubt. They aren't up to the challenge. Though they may feel differently, it's clear from a player perspective that despite the cost savings, such a bundle is not in our best interest.
     
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  3. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    100% agreed. Although I appreciate the immense effort that went into creating such a detailed and accurate timetable, I can't help but feel that other fundamental parts of the route were overlooked, especially optimization. I have experienced unbearable lag on PS4, frame rates less than 15 fps (based on visually estimating) and really can not play enjoyably with such conditions.

    I would gladly have taken 200 services over 1,200 if it meant better performance. I know PS4 users are already taking a hit by not getting layers, but unless optimization is made it is a rather disappointing route.
     
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  4. dan5324

    dan5324 Active Member

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    They are incompetent. It’s a simple as that. Unfortunately for us, all the competent developers and publishers wouldn’t touch a niche train sim with a barge pole. What to do
     
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  5. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    I wouldn't go so far to call them incompetent, but it does sometimes feel like DTG knows they have a virtually monopoly on train sims on console.
     
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  6. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    Agreed and to keep the route busy filled the rest with AI services...maybe also layers for every system equal...
     
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  7. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    Yes, not having the layers really makes me sad, especially since I am getting unbearable performance issues anyway.
     
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  8. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Answer to the thread title question.

    YES!
     
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  9. ady.hewitt

    ady.hewitt Member

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    do you think in light of the performance issues that for PS4 rush hour passengers will not now appear ?
     
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  10. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Put it this way I wouldn’t bet on it appearing
     
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  11. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    Despite assurances from DTG that they have learned from previous mistakes they clearly haven’t. With Rush Hour every single route has had major issues getting worse with each one rather than better.

    Comments made by JD on the stream last night show how out of touch they really are with the customers who keep them in business and to be honest we’re insulting. To say a few players were experiencing issues is farcical becuase even PC players are complaining in droves about poor performance.

    Whilst important to others things such as missing or wrong scenery, wrong ballast type, trees don’t look right etc. don’t bother me and I have defended DTG in the past when complaints have just been about such things, however, with the Rush Hour routes there have been major issues with just playing the game and they haven’t even got the basics right.

    There are some serious issues at DTG concerning quality, testing and communication and it’s about time it was addressed.
     
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  12. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is as others have said DTG have a general monopoly on train sim games on console so I guess they think it’s perfectly ok release such a rubbish quality product because they know players will buy the game anyway.

    I mean a few days ago I read a thread on here where a member was sarcastically lambasted by someone just because he gave a negative view on a German route and pointed out a few problems with it.

    kinda of proves the point unfortunately.
     
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  13. ukpetey

    ukpetey Active Member

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    I for one have kept £24.99 in my wallet. I had planned to purchase London Commuter, but knowing DTG likes to get beta testing carried out by paying customers, I decided to wait until after launch. Looks like it was a wise decision. I have been train driving with Train Simulator since TS2012 and honestly, things have always been bad. It’s just the degree, which in this case seems severe.

    So customers have shelled out money for a game which is so badly broken that it is, for the most part, unplayable. Imagine collecting your new car from the dealer, and it starts but won’t drive. The salesman advises that it’s pretty much working, it’s been tested and all seemed fine. He goes on to say: the issue is being investigated at the highest level (he always says that) and all being well there will be some updates along at some point, which might fix the issues and make the car driveable. Then he walks away and doesn’t say anything else. You’d be asking for your money back pretty sharpish! I’m not sure if that’s an option if we buy duff software, but it should be. Maybe a few chargebacks via card issuers (since the software purchased is defective) might sharpen minds at DTG

    The only way to get this fixed, in the future, is not to buy anything until it’s launched, and you’ve read the reviews. That’s what I’ve done. If enough people do that, DTG will have to up their game (pun intended!) and only release software when it is ready
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If they don't appear and they were the main selling point of rush hour that would be a shame
     
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  15. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    I payed less than £30 for al three routes when the season ticket was on offer. So at £10 each I think I have done the right thing as I enjoy playing all of them even with their bugs at the moment. And I am sure most of the bugs will go in time so pretty sure that for £10 a route that was the best option as they won't get much cheaper, or not at least not for a long time.
     
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  16. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    I don't really blame DTG. I fully appreciate the fact that there are technical limitations on the Gen8 consoles. I think that, in the beginning with SKA, BKL and SPG, it was extremely cool to have all the features in the game and it was a step-up from TSW. But with the newer, more complex and also more refined routes, the limitations have become more relevant. But then it was too late. I think some people playing on PS4 would gladly sacrifice some functionality (but certainly not image and sound quality and the general look-and-feel of the game) for more robust performance and layers.

    One other thing is that UE makes it hard to have a variety of trains in the game because of its memory and storage system. This is a shame because, to me, variety in the game is the ultimate goal for me (that is why I like German routes, lots of different trains rather than 4,000 trains of two types). But again, DTG has to work with what is available here.

    QA is another topic but I don't have any insight into the process so I cannot really comment on this. Yes, some flaws are easily identifiable when starting the game and playing for a few minutes. But then again, it is still a difference if a handful of betatesters are at work or literally thousands of excited people who eagerly waited for the latest release and want to try it out.

    To sum up, and this is my PERSONAL VIEW and everyone is invited to disagree: yes, I think that the cadence of new releases and the implementation of new record-breaking functions might have been a bit too much for gen8. I would prefer a lower rate of completely new stuff and rather the improvement of existing routes (with new locos like the 187, the 313) in the near future and, of course, sorting out stability issues and making possible what is possible on gen8. I think the people on PS4 and Series1 are the people who made the product so successful, so please don't forget about them.
     
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  17. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    I agree with more or less everything you said but I want to add on. I too understand that gen 8 consoles are severely limited compared to next gen consoles. My issue comes from how DTG sets expectations. As PS4 players we were never told that the PS4 really couldn't handle this route, even without the layers on. We were charged the same amount as anyone else, but given a product that performs poorly on our consoles with no warning (and unless they didn't test at all on the PS4, they would have known about the horrible performance issues around busy stations). I understand the the PS4 is going to be obsolete sooner rather than later, but DTG needs to make a decision before the next DLC to either cut off support to last gen consoles, or limit the detail on routes to make them playable. DTG seems to want to maximize the performance of next gen consoles, forgetting that it would run so poorly on gen 8 consoles.
     
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  18. Conrad

    Conrad Member

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    Sorry but it's not a engine, skills or other. Last gen version of London Commuter is better than PS5 version.
    The problem is just one: nothing betatesting. The PS5 version is not opened by betatester.
    Cyberpunk 2077 are removed from playstation store for less.
     
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  19. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    Agreed and that is a good point. We all pay the same price and get very different experiences. To me, the layers that come with a DLC are also an important selling proposition. I bought MSB not in the first place to play MSB but rather to have the DoStos on all German routes. I think that layers are extremely important for the value the DLC gives you and thus customer loyalty, regardless of what platform you use.
     
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  20. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    Agreed. On the stream last night JD said that layers are a bonus. But since I own and paid for other DLC like GWE and SEHS I feel entitled to those layers, as others who have paid the same amount get them but I don't. Like I said, I understand the hardware limitations, but even knocking a couple dollars off the price on last gen to compensate for lower performance and less content would be fine with me.
     
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  21. barryr21

    barryr21 Member

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    Think this sums my opinon up as well. I use the game to switch off at home, give me the illusion of travel and motion and thats about it. I don't know the engine names or sounds and am really bothered about the scenery or walls being 100% accurate (though that my change if they do a north west route!!).

    My issue is that when Matt or JD asked for reports or specifics instances on the stream last night it just frustrated me. Boot up a PS4, stream that version and within 10 seconds in you will know everything you need you need too. I know it is last gen but generally the game still looks and plays well and I really enjoy it for what it is bit even now I doubt any of the team will have even now looked at the Ps4 version. There is no way anyone has checked it because it would not have got through any quality control. It is just way too bad.
     
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  22. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    This 100%. If anyone at DTG had played a PS4 version in London-Victoria they would understand. Of course maybe they did but ignored it and will blame us for having inferior consoles.
     
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  23. Conrad

    Conrad Member

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    Is not a PS4 problem. Is not a resource problem.
    Native PS5 version has more crash than PS4.
    It's only a optimization and betatesting problem.
     
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  24. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    To be fair I have not yet experienced a crash on PS4, so I am not referring to crashes. I am simply referring to how poorly the DLC performs in comparison to all my other routes. For me, London-Victoria is virtually unplayable do to appalling frame rates. It improves outside of the London area, but never gets to the performance I see on other routes, even on Boston Sprinter.
     
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  25. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    I think I will need to see a stream on a gen 8 console before I buy another DLC.
     
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  26. universal.chris

    universal.chris Active Member

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    Thoughtful and well written. While I am frustrated (most of us are) I do tend to agree more with this line of thinking
     
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  27. Conrad

    Conrad Member

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    Well, I have 20fps at London and a lot of crash on my native PS5.
    You have a better version than mine.
    I should play in back compatibility.
    That insane!
     
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  28. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was...
     
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  29. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    DTG has to come down to earth and stop trying to reach next level...i mean...we ALL falled in love with this game as It was when launched on Ps4 and XboxOne...since then... game improved a lot...wich is Very good...but now they have to stop... back out a little and work with what we got...in my view nobody needs more than a 1000 playable services...who is going to complete all...? Does dtg realize How many hours would be nescessary for that...! Is insane...! Is a wast off potencial... If they scalled back the playable services they might have been able to put layers equal among every system...
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  30. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    They would also be guilty of miss selling. Which as far as I’m aware isn’t exactly legal. If it isn’t illegal then it dam well should be.
     
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  31. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you making excuses? £10 a route is £10 a route. At the end of the day a paying customer should be able to expect what they paid for however much it was to be fully working properly. Or am I missing something here?

    As for them not getting any cheaper? They should maybe give them away as freebies / compo for all the hassle the community experienced with the core update. At the moment at least that’s all they are worth in my book I know you are looking on the bright side but our mileages may well differ on this.

    I didn’t buy this route or the others but BML was the one was really looking forward to so I’m just as disappointed as those who did buy it in a way.
     
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  32. universal.chris

    universal.chris Active Member

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    Isn't this like the 3rd thread you've started within 36 hours on this topic? Wasn't there another one you started yesterday about why DTG shoot himself in foot or something?
     
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  33. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    2 threads different topics...
     
  34. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    Hi, BML was the only on I was interested really. But with the offer on the Season ticket bringing it down under to under £30 to me for less than an extra £5 I would have three routes. One I wanted and two that I that I wasn't really interested in but after watching a pre release stream for Boston I thought it looked okay so I might enjoy it. Anyway as I said I got the season ticket, and I am pleased I did as I enjoy playing it and am now enjoying playing on all three.

    I know there are bugs but I am still happy with my purchase as I am sure it won't be to long before the bugs start to get ironed out. So at less than £10 each money well spent. I think I have only seen one or two routes at £10 or less in a sale and they had been out for quite a while.
     
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  35. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t it time DTG just admitted defeat and abandoned the whole Rush Hour system and just went back to how things used to be but with better optimisation? Dunno about the PC platform but they obviously don’t know how to program such a complex and memory intensive concept as RH for console.

    The final straw for me is when I played Bakerloo Line today which I think has this Rush Hour system added to it. Now the outside camera doesn’t work! Whatever the reason for this happening it worked perfectly before and now it doesn’t. It’s one thing the brand new Rush Hour routes designed for RH being a complete mess but when previously working routes are affected then that’s where I’m kinda drawing the line at being messed about by DTG’s total lack of professional attitude to releasing things that either don’t work or break things that did.

    I’m not paying another penny on TSW2 it’s just not worth the money they are charging. I’m stuck with what I’ve already bought so I will continue to play those routes if or when they work but until DTG prove they can deliver a decent product that actually works as it should then this is one customer they have lost

    They won’t be bothered about me but if a lot more of us made a stand then they would be.

    Oh well! It was kinda fun the last few months when things generally worked but now the whole thing is a money rip off nightmare. I’ll continue to monitor this forum and contribute to see if things ever do improve whereby I might return to it? but until then DTG have lost a customer for the foreseeable future.

    Shame on you DTG! :(:|
     
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  36. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    Hope DTG are listening and bring back the formula that Works for Ps4 and Xbox One! Sure if they do this, players would stay and keep growing their collection...
    TrainSim-Matt
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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  37. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Oh don't be silly...
     
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  38. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    What’s silly about it

    it isn’t a lot of good the way it is now releasing routes so clearly underdeveloped they don’t deliver on the promise and introducing things into the game which breaks routes that worked perfectly fine previously.

    Yeah it’s a backwards step and hard on those who bought into this Rush Hour rubbish but sometimes you need to take a backwards step until you manage to work out exactly how you go forwards.

    Still I don’t expect people like you to agree because you’ll forgive these amateurs anything! I mean you have to laugh when the super dooper PS5 play’s the RH BML worse than the supposedly outdated PS4 on launch day :D

    A choice between extra passengers and busy trains with goodness knows how many problems or routes that generally work as they should and allows the player to actually enjoy playing the game. Hum I’ll have to think about that one;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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  39. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    "Sorry, Frank, we've had a few mishaps with this fancy jet engine of yours, I reckon we should just cut our losses and stick with propellers. No point trying to foist all this extra tech on people. Things are fine as they are..."
     
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  40. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    In hindsight we should maybe have tested out my new fangled jet engine a bit more and made sure it reliably did the job before putting it into service in our planes. All the mishaps we’ve had has knocked customer confidence in our planes to the extent no one wants to fly with us any more especially now we’ve got their money but no obligation to give them it back. By not giving them a reliable plane to fly in our reputation has nose dived into the ground just like one of our new jet airliners did the other day.

    Maybe we should just go back to propellers at least until we know what we are doing then re introduce our new jet engine plane if or when customer confidence returns by it reliably performing as it should . At least by doing that everybody will get to enjoy their holiday which at the end of the day is what they paid for. Who knows by taking this responsible retro step back towards something we know works and delivers roughly what our customers paid for we might just get back customer confidence in our airline which will give us the finance to develop my jet engine properly. Who knows we might save our company who’s reputation is currently shot. These are just a few factors to think about, maybe not quite 41 in number but important ones all the same. I know you are one of my biggest fans and I appreciate you selflessly paying your own money in order to put on your helmet unpaid in order to literally crash test my new technology. Your loyalty know no bounds your one in a million.

    Regards

    Frank DTG
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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  41. ace

    ace Member

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    I am still having fun but maybe it’s time to slow down releases so that QA has a little more time to try everything out. My train, on the New London route, got stuck at a red light for over 20 minutes with multiple trains stuck at stations in front of me according to the map view. (There were no passengers on my train either.) I finally gave up. I don’t need every train on every route or so many passengers that that’s an issue either. Maybe we should get some sliders to choose the amount of passengers or services we want. Also can’t we just put some dummy passengers on the trains as sort of decorations? Just a few thoughts/issues…
     
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  42. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    There is a case for 'the greater good'. When the 64-bit upgrade for Train Simulator was released, it broke years of scenarios and routes. But it was absolutely right to do, as it secured Train Simulator's future, for a few years at least. The new passenger system ought to be a permanent change, because going back on it is, as you say, a backwards step. If the logic you demonstrate was widely used, we'd still be using turboprop aeroplanes because of the Comet crashes. Instead of returning to the turboprop aircraft from before, the design was refined and the Comet laid the path for modern air transportation.
    In two or three years Internet Historian won't be making a video for Rush Hour like he did with Fallout 76 and No Man's Sky. A temporary optimisation issue isn't breaking news in gaming and it won't be long until it is fixed. I don't know how long you've been playing TSW and TS, but the issues caused by TS' 64-bit upgrade were lasted much longer than the PS4 UE 4.26 update.
     
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  43. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    The new passenger system has no impact on the simulation. It’s just visual immersion, so DTG could revise it without losing anything really. It has too many negative consequences in its current and flawed form.
     
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  44. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    Problem with passengers is that you see them spawn in stations when coming in for a stop...but about performance i understood that Matt said that they managed to introduced them without memory impact (ram)...or very little...
    In my view problem lies with hight loco numbers (different ones)...and in BML is think is because insane high numbers off playable services! (Make more AI and fewer playable for Ps4)...i mean...way less...like 1000 less...this must improve...right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  45. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    It’s amusing me why some of you insist on all the analogies with planes, going to the moon, and changing the world?

    TSW2 is a video game. At the end of the day we’ve all payed good money to actually play it. Whilst I agree things should always try to be improved what I don’t agree with is supposedly improving things and releasing before the so called improvements are actually ready and working! which in turn also breaks previously playable routes albeit those routes might have had the odd bug here and there to the extent all enjoyment is taken away and you don’t really want to load the game up anymore because a lot of the time you have to abandon the game because lots of things just don’t work anymore that previously did

    There is a world of difference between improving technology in order to actually improve the world in some significant way and a video game. We all just want to be able to actually reasonably play TSW2 for leisure because that’s why we bought it. A fully working as it should TSW2 with the latest technology and improvements ain’t gonna change the world for the greater good mate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  46. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    Come on, even the HUD affects the framerate in this game.... They can't code a game properly, plain and simple. I stopped playing this game and buying new content because I'm fed up with their incompetence. I come here sometimes just to read news, but nothing changes... Well, things are even getting worse.
     
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  47. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    This...i feel like that are many things yet to get It right...
     
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  48. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    The problem I see, that DTG develop the content on relatively new PC Hardware, that can easily works with around 4000 services like on BML. And then comes the porting to the other platforms. When they realize that there will be a performance issue, they decide for the most economic alternative for them, the deleting of additional layers. Because making alternative timetables or software optimization is more expensive.

    It's a decision you can understand under an economic perspective.

    But on a first view only.

    Because a big part of the customers is on last gen.

    And that will not change so fast. Especially with the actual difficulties to get a next gen console at the moment and in the next year probably.

    And to make a big part of your customers not so happy is not such a good thing for your business in the long term.
     
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  49. ukpetey

    ukpetey Active Member

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    If it ain’t broke, don’t “fix” it. It’s more routes I want, not more passengers. I’m in the cab, I don’t care how many are sitting behind me on the train. I’m busy at the front driving the thing. I want scenarios to work all the way through to the end, no crashes, no issues. I just want to play the game I bought, and add to my collection of routes/lines/vehicles for the sake of variety.

    I truly regret moving from TS20XX to Train Sim World. The choice of routes was far superior. I just didn’t want to play on a gaming PC, so I bought in to Train Sim World for the convenience of playing on a console and the promise of how fantastic it was going to be. I miss the Settle/Carlisle line, Bishop Auckland to Darlington, the fantastic WCML North, Weardale/Teesdale and many others.

    Yes it all looks stunning on my PS5, but the core function of a game is “playability”. Never should such broken content be released to paying customers. Perhaps part of the problem is the price of the Season Pass?

    At £32 for three routes which are £25 each individually, it’s a bargain. If you actually want two or more of the routes. If you like all three even better. It’s impossible to do the maths, but to have sold each of the three routes at £25 each would be far more lucrative. Personally I’d rather pay £25 for a good quality route that functions as it should, than less than £11 each (Season Pass pricing) and have it be unplayable!

    Whoever is in charge of this pile of cr*p being launched to paying customers in such a state, should really be considering if this is the career for them….
     
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  50. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree the passengers are not that important. I was trying the Koln route as it had Rush Hour passengers. I noticed when doing the journey I was never carrying passengers. Maybe 1 or 2 and it made me think how the services might get cancelled and I might lose my job.

    Sure I get what you mean that the trains and the route are more important and I do agree they should fix the routes first and then add the passenger system when everything else works fine. But what annoyed me with the release of BML is that we were promised a stable route on PS4 on release but sacrifice the layers. Then we got a version with Rush Hour passengers turned off so the game would be stable on release. I play the route and it's not stable even with layers turned off and Rush Hour passengers not included.

    Worst of all: even if I upgrade to next gen console I get the same experience.
     
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